DIY Electric Car Forums banner

1 - 6 of 6 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #2
Re: [EVDL] Getting a bit OT - TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV

I was thinking the same thing earlier, the parallel between the situation
China is in and how Japan came around. We taught the Japanese quality
methodologies
http://www.deming.org/theman/articles/articles_threecareers02.html but the
Japanese were ready and anxious to implement them, our own companies were
not, which is how we got to where we are today, with U.S. industry playing
catch up.

But why did Japan realize the need, and China, at least to a great extent,
doesn't? Are the Chinese are too short sited simply because they are
starving, so their concerns are more immediate? Is it too much corruption?
Is it just the way the Chinese have always done business?

I still wonder if there is a legal avenue for recourse if you can get them
to sign a contract and then they fail to deliver as promised. It may not
matter much if there is no enforcement in China.

I did win one battle recently. I bought about 5000 clocks from a company in
Taiwan that had them made in China. Of 5000, 4500 had movements from one
company, they were pretty good. About 500 had movements from a different
company that were defective. I am pretty sure the movement company knew they
were defective when they supplied them.

To make a long story short, the clock company tried to tell me it wasn't
their problem that the clocks weren't right, I needed to take it up with the
movement company. I told them that I bought clocks from them, not movements
from the movement company, they needed to fix the clocks if they wanted to
see additional orders. They told me the movement company was not helpful.
I told them that I would help however I could.

Now I think the movement company figured I was small time enough that they
could just dump their defective junk on me. They were not returning Emails
or phone calls. I emailed them, and pointed out to them that their part of
this particular order was for 500 movements, but in the last two years I had
sold over 4000 clocks that I had bought in the US from another company that
used their movements, and had bought another 4500 movements from their
competitor. Due to them shipping me defective movements, and not making the
situation right, that other US brand was now also on hold until the issue
was resolved, or they changed movement makers. I also told the owners of
this other US company that their product was on hold because they use a
movement that I had on hold, therefore any clock with that movement was on
hold.

The movement maker, seeing that shafting me on 500 movements could cost them
sales of tens of thousands, came through with 500 movements free of charge,
quickly I might add. The clock manufacturer agreed to change the movements
free of charge.

I really think you need to maintain a position where treating you right is
obviously more profitable than doing you wrong.

Back to TS, if Jukka and other companies are doing 100% acceptance testing,
where are the cells that fail going? Maybe to a buyer that doesn't appear
to be a promising large quantity buyer?

Danger Will Robinson!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Davidson" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 9:59 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Getting a bit OT - TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV


> There was a recent article on the problems with stuff coming from China -
> a
> lot of our seafood comes from China as well as other stuff. A local
> (Baltimore/DC) company was mentioned - Phillips Seafood, a well respected
> restaurant chain. A spokesman said that Phillips has had no problems
> because they ACTUALLY OWN their own facilities in China and have their own
> personnel overseeing all operations.
>
> Saw on the news that Mattel went as far as to ship paint to China to be
> used
> on all toys being manufactured for them, but the factory used paint from
> somewhere else and that's how the lead paint got on the toys. They
> obviously didn't monitor the manufacturer close enough.
>
> I think Jukka mentioned that he checks every single battery at the
> Thundersky factory before he ships them out to be used in packs for his
> customers. He only buys the ones that check out good. That's a lot of
> effort, but it's what's required to ensure he gets good batteries. It
> sounds like the distributer mentioned in Hong Kong does the same thing so
> they can offer a warranty.
>
> If a US distributer would do the same thing and sell Thundersky cells with
> a
> BMS and a warranty, I might be inclined to buy some. However, I would
> NEVER
> buy any direct from the factory, based on how they have treated Victor and
> others. In fact, I would never buy anything direct from a factory in
> China.
>
> I'm old enough to remember when everything coming out of Japan was
> considered junk (and usually was). They totally turned their act around,
> and eventually China will too. Until then, it's buyer beware.
>
> Dave

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Re: [EVDL] Getting a bit OT - TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV

Yeah the current recalls over lead metal toys and lead paint items
appear to be due to them shipping a demo piece of acceptable materials,
maybe some early shipments are acceptable then the mfg'er gets greedy,
gets into a cost crunch, unknowningly gets suckered by their own
materials supplier, or there's a change in management and the parts
start changing. The importing companies are becoming aware of how
difficult it would be to test every lot of product they receive. In
fact a shipment could easily contain a mix of acceptable and
contaminated items on the same pallette with the same lot number.

Real troubling lack of consistency.

Danny

Marty Hewes wrote:

>I was thinking the same thing earlier, the parallel between the situation
>China is in and how Japan came around. We taught the Japanese quality
>methodologies
>http://www.deming.org/theman/articles/articles_threecareers02.html but the
>Japanese were ready and anxious to implement them, our own companies were
>not, which is how we got to where we are today, with U.S. industry playing
>catch up.
>
>But why did Japan realize the need, and China, at least to a great extent,
>doesn't? Are the Chinese are too short sited simply because they are
>starving, so their concerns are more immediate? Is it too much corruption?
>Is it just the way the Chinese have always done business?
>
>I still wonder if there is a legal avenue for recourse if you can get them
>to sign a contract and then they fail to deliver as promised. It may not
>matter much if there is no enforcement in China.
>
>I did win one battle recently. I bought about 5000 clocks from a company in
>Taiwan that had them made in China. Of 5000, 4500 had movements from one
>company, they were pretty good. About 500 had movements from a different
>company that were defective. I am pretty sure the movement company knew they
>were defective when they supplied them.
>
>To make a long story short, the clock company tried to tell me it wasn't
>their problem that the clocks weren't right, I needed to take it up with the
>movement company. I told them that I bought clocks from them, not movements
>from the movement company, they needed to fix the clocks if they wanted to
>see additional orders. They told me the movement company was not helpful.
>I told them that I would help however I could.
>
>Now I think the movement company figured I was small time enough that they
>could just dump their defective junk on me. They were not returning Emails
>or phone calls. I emailed them, and pointed out to them that their part of
>this particular order was for 500 movements, but in the last two years I had
>sold over 4000 clocks that I had bought in the US from another company that
>used their movements, and had bought another 4500 movements from their
>competitor. Due to them shipping me defective movements, and not making the
>situation right, that other US brand was now also on hold until the issue
>was resolved, or they changed movement makers. I also told the owners of
>this other US company that their product was on hold because they use a
>movement that I had on hold, therefore any clock with that movement was on
>hold.
>
>The movement maker, seeing that shafting me on 500 movements could cost them
>sales of tens of thousands, came through with 500 movements free of charge,
>quickly I might add. The clock manufacturer agreed to change the movements
>free of charge.
>
>I really think you need to maintain a position where treating you right is
>obviously more profitable than doing you wrong.
>
>Back to TS, if Jukka and other companies are doing 100% acceptance testing,
>where are the cells that fail going? Maybe to a buyer that doesn't appear
>to be a promising large quantity buyer?
>
>Danger Will Robinson!
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Dave Davidson" <[email protected]>
>To: <[email protected]>
>Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 9:59 PM
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Getting a bit OT - TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV
>
>
>
>
>>There was a recent article on the problems with stuff coming from China -
>>a
>>lot of our seafood comes from China as well as other stuff. A local
>>(Baltimore/DC) company was mentioned - Phillips Seafood, a well respected
>>restaurant chain. A spokesman said that Phillips has had no problems
>>because they ACTUALLY OWN their own facilities in China and have their own
>>personnel overseeing all operations.
>>
>>Saw on the news that Mattel went as far as to ship paint to China to be
>>used
>>on all toys being manufactured for them, but the factory used paint from
>>somewhere else and that's how the lead paint got on the toys. They
>>obviously didn't monitor the manufacturer close enough.
>>
>>I think Jukka mentioned that he checks every single battery at the
>>Thundersky factory before he ships them out to be used in packs for his
>>customers. He only buys the ones that check out good. That's a lot of
>>effort, but it's what's required to ensure he gets good batteries. It
>>sounds like the distributer mentioned in Hong Kong does the same thing so
>>they can offer a warranty.
>>
>>If a US distributer would do the same thing and sell Thundersky cells with
>>a
>>BMS and a warranty, I might be inclined to buy some. However, I would
>>NEVER
>>buy any direct from the factory, based on how they have treated Victor and
>>others. In fact, I would never buy anything direct from a factory in
>>China.
>>
>>I'm old enough to remember when everything coming out of Japan was
>>considered junk (and usually was). They totally turned their act around,
>>and eventually China will too. Until then, it's buyer beware.
>>
>>Dave
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Re: [EVDL] Getting a bit OT - TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV

Yeah the current recalls over lead metal toys and lead paint items
appear to be due to them shipping a demo piece of acceptable materials,
maybe some early shipments are acceptable then the mfg'er gets greedy,
gets into a cost crunch, unknowningly gets suckered by their own
materials supplier, or there's a change in management and the parts
start changing. The importing companies are becoming aware of how
difficult it would be to test every lot of product they receive. In
fact a shipment could easily contain a mix of acceptable and
contaminated items on the same pallette with the same lot number.

Real troubling lack of consistency.

Danny

Marty Hewes wrote:

>I was thinking the same thing earlier, the parallel between the situation
>China is in and how Japan came around. We taught the Japanese quality
>methodologies
>http://www.deming.org/theman/articles/articles_threecareers02.html but the
>Japanese were ready and anxious to implement them, our own companies were
>not, which is how we got to where we are today, with U.S. industry playing
>catch up.
>
>But why did Japan realize the need, and China, at least to a great extent,
>doesn't? Are the Chinese are too short sited simply because they are
>starving, so their concerns are more immediate? Is it too much corruption?
>Is it just the way the Chinese have always done business?
>
>I still wonder if there is a legal avenue for recourse if you can get them
>to sign a contract and then they fail to deliver as promised. It may not
>matter much if there is no enforcement in China.
>
>I did win one battle recently. I bought about 5000 clocks from a company in
>Taiwan that had them made in China. Of 5000, 4500 had movements from one
>company, they were pretty good. About 500 had movements from a different
>company that were defective. I am pretty sure the movement company knew they
>were defective when they supplied them.
>
>To make a long story short, the clock company tried to tell me it wasn't
>their problem that the clocks weren't right, I needed to take it up with the
>movement company. I told them that I bought clocks from them, not movements
>from the movement company, they needed to fix the clocks if they wanted to
>see additional orders. They told me the movement company was not helpful.
>I told them that I would help however I could.
>
>Now I think the movement company figured I was small time enough that they
>could just dump their defective junk on me. They were not returning Emails
>or phone calls. I emailed them, and pointed out to them that their part of
>this particular order was for 500 movements, but in the last two years I had
>sold over 4000 clocks that I had bought in the US from another company that
>used their movements, and had bought another 4500 movements from their
>competitor. Due to them shipping me defective movements, and not making the
>situation right, that other US brand was now also on hold until the issue
>was resolved, or they changed movement makers. I also told the owners of
>this other US company that their product was on hold because they use a
>movement that I had on hold, therefore any clock with that movement was on
>hold.
>
>The movement maker, seeing that shafting me on 500 movements could cost them
>sales of tens of thousands, came through with 500 movements free of charge,
>quickly I might add. The clock manufacturer agreed to change the movements
>free of charge.
>
>I really think you need to maintain a position where treating you right is
>obviously more profitable than doing you wrong.
>
>Back to TS, if Jukka and other companies are doing 100% acceptance testing,
>where are the cells that fail going? Maybe to a buyer that doesn't appear
>to be a promising large quantity buyer?
>
>Danger Will Robinson!
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Dave Davidson" <[email protected]>
>To: <[email protected]>
>Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 9:59 PM
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Getting a bit OT - TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV
>
>
>
>
>>There was a recent article on the problems with stuff coming from China -
>>a
>>lot of our seafood comes from China as well as other stuff. A local
>>(Baltimore/DC) company was mentioned - Phillips Seafood, a well respected
>>restaurant chain. A spokesman said that Phillips has had no problems
>>because they ACTUALLY OWN their own facilities in China and have their own
>>personnel overseeing all operations.
>>
>>Saw on the news that Mattel went as far as to ship paint to China to be
>>used
>>on all toys being manufactured for them, but the factory used paint from
>>somewhere else and that's how the lead paint got on the toys. They
>>obviously didn't monitor the manufacturer close enough.
>>
>>I think Jukka mentioned that he checks every single battery at the
>>Thundersky factory before he ships them out to be used in packs for his
>>customers. He only buys the ones that check out good. That's a lot of
>>effort, but it's what's required to ensure he gets good batteries. It
>>sounds like the distributer mentioned in Hong Kong does the same thing so
>>they can offer a warranty.
>>
>>If a US distributer would do the same thing and sell Thundersky cells with
>>a
>>BMS and a warranty, I might be inclined to buy some. However, I would
>>NEVER
>>buy any direct from the factory, based on how they have treated Victor and
>>others. In fact, I would never buy anything direct from a factory in
>>China.
>>
>>I'm old enough to remember when everything coming out of Japan was
>>considered junk (and usually was). They totally turned their act around,
>>and eventually China will too. Until then, it's buyer beware.
>>
>>Dave
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Re: [EVDL] Getting a bit OT - TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV

Consistancy is another issue. Here, in the US, we pretty much figure a
barcode SKU is for a given product, and it doesn't change. With products we
get from companies that import from China, we get surprised often that a
product can change fairly radically, features, color, size, with no warning,
and the barcode SKU doesn't change. It's just suddenly different. I'm not
at all surprised about lead showing up in paint. Could have been a supplier
problem, maybe they ran out of the no-lead and didn't want to stop
production, maybe some minion sold the good stuff and substituted cheaper
lead based stuff, or it could easily be someone over here cheaped out, since
the paint was supplied from here, and blamed the Chinese. Stuff like that
happens here too.

There have been years of history of "just use something and keep cranking
stuff out" in Chinese government owned factories under comunist rule to
unlearn. That's why Ford has a lot of westerner employees in their parts
plants in China. I think we will see the government over there at least
attempt to encourage some quality control even more now, they desperately
need western dollars buying their products, but what will they be able to
do? I do know, straight from the mouth of the Mayor of Nanjing, that their
schools are cranking out English speaking college grads trained in western
quality and production methods. They know it's strategic for their
survival. But they still need experienced leadership. The Mayor of
Nanjing, along with some trade officials, came to Chicago and gave a lunch
presentation, offering inexpensive factory floor space and labor if you set
up a factory and supplied expertise.

If anybody with experience wants to build batteries, I can give you contacts
for space and labor, the Chinese government would warmly welcome you. They
have western style housing and schools all set up waiting to make you feel
as comfortable as possible.

Marty

----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Miller" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 11:27 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Getting a bit OT - TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV


> Yeah the current recalls over lead metal toys and lead paint items
> appear to be due to them shipping a demo piece of acceptable materials,
> maybe some early shipments are acceptable then the mfg'er gets greedy,
> gets into a cost crunch, unknowningly gets suckered by their own
> materials supplier, or there's a change in management and the parts
> start changing. The importing companies are becoming aware of how
> difficult it would be to test every lot of product they receive. In
> fact a shipment could easily contain a mix of acceptable and
> contaminated items on the same pallette with the same lot number.
>
> Real troubling lack of consistency.
>
> Danny

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Re: [EVDL] Getting a bit OT - TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV

Marty Hewes wrote:
> Consistancy is another issue. Here, in the US, we pretty much figure
> a barcode SKU is for a given product, and it doesn't change.
...
> Stuff like that happens here too.

Getting further off topic, sometimes unnoticed changes have effects much
further down the line. Some of you may remember Flight 529
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Southeast_Airlines_Flight_529),
in which a propeller blade failed catastrophically in mid-flight and
forced an emergency landing attempt into a field. The resultant crash
and fire killed 10 people.

The immediate cause was "undiscovered metal fatigue due to corrosion."

Propellers blades need to be balanced properly. If I recall the details
correctly, lead shot and some sort of epoxy is pushed inside the tip of
the blade to add weight for fine balance. A cork plug is then pushed up
to provide more support.

With these particular propellers, the cork supplier changed their method
of bleaching the cork and did not notify Hamilton Standard, the
propeller maker. The new method left (IIRC) chlorine bleach residue in
the cork. When this mixed with normal moisture inside the propeller
blade, it resulted in hydrochloric acid, which ate away at the blade
from the inside.

Now, obviously the more immediate blame for the failure was with the
failure of the inspection process to correct for these cracks. The
corrosion had been discovered due to two previous propeller failures,
but the inspection and repair techniques were not sufficient to
compensate for the damage. But for me this remains an illustration of
how a small problem can grow insidiously as it gets further down the chain.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 
1 - 6 of 6 Posts
Top