Re: [EVDL] Getting a bit OT - TS warnings ...
On 16 Aug 2007 at 10:53, Bob Rice wrote:
> Obviously there is a market for locally produced batteries, or he
> wouldn't have been making them here, in the first place?
I realize that not everyone on the EVDL is interested in EVs for their
"greenness." I hope that I can discuss it a bit and those who ARE
interested will take part thoughtfully, while those are are not interested
will just delete this message and refrain from criticizing us or calling us
names.
After all, I don't race EVs, in fact don't really like racing, but I don't
complain about others discussing racing on the EVDL, nor do I insult them or
call them names. So, those who aren't interested in the environmental angle
on EVs, please give us a break on this thread - which I think is solidly on
topic. I promise not to denigrate you for your decisions.
Anyway, for us "greenies," I think it's worth considering that imported
batteries carry some extra environmental baggage.
For one thing, environmental laws are not very strongly enforced in China
(and probably Mexico and some other cheap-labor countries). Lead and
chemical pollution is desperately, fatally high in some parts of China. So
those who have a "green" side might want to investigate the environmental
profile of the factories producing their batteries, be they lead or lithium.
The other consideration is the amount of embedded energy (most of it from
petroleum and coal) that goes into imported batteries.
If you buy USBMC batteries, they'll be shipped from CA or GA, whichever is
closer. Presumably Trojan works similarly. But if you buy batteries from
China, they're shipped literally halfway round the world in a freighter
using fuel oil. Then they're trucked or rail-transported closer to you, and
finally trucked again to you or your dealer.
And that's not all. I've read that at least some of the lead batteries that
are recycled in the US are actually shipped to China or South America for
processing. (Someone correct me if this is wrong.) This burns petroleum
and moves the recycling process to areas where environmental laws may be lax
(see above).
Also, Chinese and South American manufacturing is generally less energy
efficient than European and US manufacturing, so more energy may be used to
produce the batteries there than would be used here.
Then, the finished batteries are shipped back to the states, using still
more energy and petroleum.
So, while the dollar price is lower because of the low cost of labor, the
energy cost of imported batteries is probably higher. I can't say how MUCH
higher, as I don't have the time or access to research materials to
calculate it. I do think it would be interesting, and I hope not dismaying,
to factor this into (or, rather, out of) the energy savings of our EVs.
> Has the State of Or. offered Rich and Otmar any buildings, tax breaks,
> employee training?
I don't know the answer, but I can tell you that EV companies have proposed
manufacturing plants in various places, and in some cases, they've been
promised tax breaks. Often, the companies never build the plants. IIRC,
the Korean operation that developed the Parade, ATTRD, proposed building a
plant somewhere in the Midwest, and were promised financial help by the
regional govemment. No facility ever materialized. This leaves the tax-
break climate less receptive for legitimate (or better managed) EV-related
businesses.
>
> I'll pay more for my Grandkid's new toys to see " Made in USA" on
> them. Bring them ON! I
Maybe you would. But most people >say< this, then they turn right around
and buy what's cheapest, just as they always have. That's why so many
things are made in China - because people buy them. That, and the fact that
it means more profit for the US company at a given price level, which
stockholders demand. If you're the CEO, you get rewarded financially for
this. Who can blame them?
If you want more EV parts made in the USA, then don't buy imported EV parts.
Simple as that. If you want EV parts to which less environmental damage can
be ascribed, buy US-made or EU-made components rather than components from
Asia. Equally simple.
There are people manufacturing EV components in the US and some of them are
right on this list. At least one of them bends over backward to patronize
US suppliers.
Again, I'm not saying this is the right decision for everyone, and I don't
mean to offend anyone who puts price at the top of the decision tree.
Everybody makes buying decisions based on his own situation. All I'm trying
to do is provide some extra input for those decisions.
>
> OK I'm getting off topic trying to make a point? Maybe A123 could make them
> here? Or a Thunder Sky branch plant HERE?
Isn't Jukka talking about a possible Thundersky plant in Finland? If they
can build one there, with Finland's famous high taxes and the EU's stringent
environmental laws, surely we could build one here. All we need is someone
with sufficient drive and connections - and lots of investors.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator
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