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Discussion Starter #1
Re: [EVDL] Got Juice? - ie., is the charger charging? (WAS: Re: Manzanita failure)

Yep, Tom has a little Geo Metro in Reno with a Curtis AC system and lithiums.

How about you take a NC relay and wire the coil to energize when the AC is
on to the charger. If the AC goes off, the contacts close the horn relay
and HONK HONK? That oughta alert ya.

Or you could do what the cops do in this police state and connect a taser
to fire if the charger stops. A passerby that gets zapped will start
screaming and alert everyone. Cops would love it.

I plugged the Russco charger in the other day and the GFI tripped
immediately. Fuck. After cussing the Russco and wondering if I should
use another charger without a ground, I decided to follow the stupid
Russco charger manual. I took my DVM and measured from some battery post
to chassis and found the lowest voltage (1 volt or so). Found some acid
crud on that particular battery, cleaned with a paper towel and a little
brush soaked with water and baking soda, dried with another paper towel.
Powered up and worked fine. So, GFI was doing its job.


> I really haven't seen much discussion on the List (or elsewhere) as to
> how to monitor the charging status remotely. In this case, it sounds
> like tomw dropped 1.5 hrs of charging time. He came back to his EV
> after an extended time away, expecting it to have a good charge, and he
> came back to silence, no charge, and a problem.
>
> That brings back memories. In July 1996 on a Sat., my first item of the
> day was to attend the EBEAA meeting over at the Alameda Naval Air
> Station, some 26 miles distant over in East Bay from my home. We could
> always obtain charging over at the East Bay meetings, but with just 120V
> K&W BC-20 charging, you needed to get on the juice and stay on it for
> quite some time. I hooked up to the AC distribution box with 120V
> outlets sourcing from a 240V outlet. Went in to the 10AM EBEAA meeting,
> expecting my car to have enough juice to comfortably roll back up the
> freeway towards home. I had a 12-noon windsurfing engagement at the
> Berkeley Marina with a beautiful Thai co-worker who had invited me for
> some splash time. I planned on leaving the EBEAA meeting somewhat early
> to get to the Marina on time ;^>.
>
> The meeting essentials done with, I walked out to the car. It should've
> still been charging away, but silence. Yuck! That sinking feeling of
> little or no juice in the batteries, and having to drive some
> significant miles on freeways and high interchanges on the bottom half
> of my pack. Ain't no way I was going to make it home without some
> watchin'-moss-grow-on-a-tree 120V charge time.
>
> I made it to the Marina on time after getting lost in Alameda housing,
> now down to the bottom quarter of the pack. Starting to feel a little
> soft under the pedal. It turned out that my co-splashee didn't show up
> till about a half hour after noon, and no surfboards were available for
> about another half hour because of a class. So I put my time to use to
> track down an outlet for charging. I obtained permission after some
> hunting around to charge off a little 120V outlet with Coke machine in
> tandem. The charger got turned down significantly. I had no way to
> monitor charging progress for the several hours I was away splashing
> (yes, my first time windsurfing).
>
> I had over 20 miles to get home at this point, including a major grade
> westbound (read headwind) over the San Rafael - Richmond Br. I figured
> I was going to be using a fellow EV'ers charging outlet up the road for
> a few hours. Fortunately, that worked in well for some further time at
> the nearby Mexican restaurant with my co-worker.
>
> I made it home, but all the anxiety/time with the cords, circuit
> breakers, and hunting around for outlets could've been reduced or
> eliminated if I had had a means of monitoring the charging outlet while
> in the EV meeting. While we didn't have iPhones or Droids back then, a
> monitoring app or a keychain micro app sure would've been nice. Circuit
> breaker trips screwed me up other times. It's one of the reasons the EV
> stays close to home these days, along with nearly zip charging
> infrastructure and acquiring a gas car. What little I hear about remote
> monitoring maybe means that I'll be writing that app (which I'm
> certainly looking forward to doing)...
>
> tomw wrote:
>> I charged at an RV park for the first time yesterday. I charged for
>> about 10
>> minutes just to test it out. I charged there again today, planning to
>> fully
>> charge to extend my range. I plugged into a NEMA14-50, turned on the
>> Manzanita PFC30 switch, and adjusted the charge current up to 28ADC
>> (~120V
>> pack, so about 14A from the 50A AC outlet). The TBS gauge read 41.1Ah
>> used,
>> everything looked good, so I went for a walk and got a cup of coffee,
>> expecting it to require about 1 1/2 hour to charge. When I returned
>> about 1
>> hour later the charger was off and the TBS read 41.0Ah used, so it must
>> have
>> kicked off almost immediately after I walked away. I turned the charger
>> current knob down to zero, and flipped the charger switch back on.
>> There
>> was a loud clack and it immediately flipped back off. I have been using
>> this charger on a 240V outlet at home for almost 1 year, and had charged
>> about an hour earlier at home before leaving. When I returned home I
>> tried
>> it again with the same result, and it kicked off the 50A GFCI breaker on
>> the
>> wall. I pulled an interconnect wire on a cell level board and the
>> minibms
>> alarmed, so it is still working fine. The EKM meter on the AC input to
>> the
>> charger is still working fine also. Any ideas what happened?
>
>
>
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>


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Discussion Starter #2
Re: [EVDL] Got Juice? - ie., is the charger charging? (WAS: Re: Manzanita failure)

The horn would be a good idea as long as I remained nearby. However, I went
for a walk for an hour covering a couple miles or so. In that case all it
would do is piss off everyone in the RV park, and maybe cause the owner to
revoke my permission to charge. In general, I had planned to leave the car
charging at some point like this while I go for a bike ride, a walk, or eat
breakfast or lunch at a place that may be a mile or more from the charging
point. I have about 75 mile range at about 50 mph, but I could extend it
quit a bit this way, depending on how far I can go and still find a charging
point. Now I will be hesitant to try it unless I charge where I can make it
home if something like this happens, so within 35 - 40 miles of home - and I
may just read a book and keep an eye on it. It isn't clear to me how you
would implement remote monitoring. Of course if your charger dies, as in
this case, it doesn't help you much.

I asked Rich about upgrading to the PFC40 rectifier board, and also how much
it would cost to rework the PFC30 to a PFC40. He didn't answer the first
question (not possible maybe?), and said the second would be too expensive
to be worth it. Darn, I could have charged at 40A and gotten 24-25 miles per
hour charge (spec is 0.3C or 54A for my cells).
--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Manzanita-failure-tp2535870p2539889.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Discussion Starter #3
Re: [EVDL] Got Juice? - ie., is the charger charging? (WAS: Re: Manzanita failure)

Chuck,

You could get a computer-based BMonS (that's a Battery Monitoring
System as opposed to BManS or BMMS which monitors AND manages) or at
least one which has an RS232 or similar output and then use a mobile
(cell phone) dongle to give it web access and then use TeamViewer (or
any other remote access app) on your iPhone to view the EV computer -
and the BMonS - remotely. It would obviously work with wifi too as
long as you were in range such when your at home or work. If that's
too much, you could get your EV computer to ping you sms's every 20
mins or whatever or, better still (or as well as) send it a special
coded sms and it'll send a status report one back - like on my EV...

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk



Chuck Hursch wrote:

> I really haven't seen much discussion on the List (or elsewhere) as to
> how to monitor the charging status remotely. In this case, it sounds
> like tomw dropped 1.5 hrs of charging time. He came back to his EV
> after an extended time away, expecting it to have a good charge, and
> he
> came back to silence, no charge, and a problem.
>
> That brings back memories. In July 1996 on a Sat., my first item of
> the
> day was to attend the EBEAA meeting over at the Alameda Naval Air
> Station, some 26 miles distant over in East Bay from my home. We
> could
> always obtain charging over at the East Bay meetings, but with just
> 120V
> K&W BC-20 charging, you needed to get on the juice and stay on it for
> quite some time. I hooked up to the AC distribution box with 120V
> outlets sourcing from a 240V outlet. Went in to the 10AM EBEAA
> meeting,
> expecting my car to have enough juice to comfortably roll back up the
> freeway towards home. I had a 12-noon windsurfing engagement at the
> Berkeley Marina with a beautiful Thai co-worker who had invited me for
> some splash time. I planned on leaving the EBEAA meeting somewhat
> early
> to get to the Marina on time ;^>.
>
> The meeting essentials done with, I walked out to the car. It
> should've
> still been charging away, but silence. Yuck! That sinking feeling of
> little or no juice in the batteries, and having to drive some
> significant miles on freeways and high interchanges on the bottom half
> of my pack. Ain't no way I was going to make it home without some
> watchin'-moss-grow-on-a-tree 120V charge time.
>
> I made it to the Marina on time after getting lost in Alameda housing,
> now down to the bottom quarter of the pack. Starting to feel a little
> soft under the pedal. It turned out that my co-splashee didn't show
> up
> till about a half hour after noon, and no surfboards were available
> for
> about another half hour because of a class. So I put my time to use
> to
> track down an outlet for charging. I obtained permission after some
> hunting around to charge off a little 120V outlet with Coke machine in
> tandem. The charger got turned down significantly. I had no way to
> monitor charging progress for the several hours I was away splashing
> (yes, my first time windsurfing).
>
> I had over 20 miles to get home at this point, including a major grade
> westbound (read headwind) over the San Rafael - Richmond Br. I
> figured
> I was going to be using a fellow EV'ers charging outlet up the road
> for
> a few hours. Fortunately, that worked in well for some further time
> at
> the nearby Mexican restaurant with my co-worker.
>
> I made it home, but all the anxiety/time with the cords, circuit
> breakers, and hunting around for outlets could've been reduced or
> eliminated if I had had a means of monitoring the charging outlet
> while
> in the EV meeting. While we didn't have iPhones or Droids back
> then, a
> monitoring app or a keychain micro app sure would've been nice.
> Circuit
> breaker trips screwed me up other times. It's one of the reasons
> the EV
> stays close to home these days, along with nearly zip charging
> infrastructure and acquiring a gas car. What little I hear about
> remote
> monitoring maybe means that I'll be writing that app (which I'm
> certainly looking forward to doing)...
>
> tomw wrote:
>> I charged at an RV park for the first time yesterday. I charged
>> for about 10
>> minutes just to test it out. I charged there again today, planning
>> to fully
>> charge to extend my range. I plugged into a NEMA14-50, turned on the
>> Manzanita PFC30 switch, and adjusted the charge current up to 28ADC
>> (~120V
>> pack, so about 14A from the 50A AC outlet). The TBS gauge read
>> 41.1Ah used,
>> everything looked good, so I went for a walk and got a cup of coffee,
>> expecting it to require about 1 1/2 hour to charge. When I
>> returned about 1
>> hour later the charger was off and the TBS read 41.0Ah used, so it
>> must have
>> kicked off almost immediately after I walked away. I turned the
>> charger
>> current knob down to zero, and flipped the charger switch back on.
>> There
>> was a loud clack and it immediately flipped back off. I have been
>> using
>> this charger on a 240V outlet at home for almost 1 year, and had
>> charged
>> about an hour earlier at home before leaving. When I returned home
>> I tried
>> it again with the same result, and it kicked off the 50A GFCI
>> breaker on the
>> wall. I pulled an interconnect wire on a cell level board and the
>> minibms
>> alarmed, so it is still working fine. The EKM meter on the AC
>> input to the
>> charger is still working fine also. Any ideas what happened?
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk



_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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Registered
Joined
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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Re: [EVDL] Got Juice? - ie., is the charger charging? (WAS: Re: Manzanita failure)

Chuck,

... forgot to add... of course Jack would have us abbreviate all these
acronyms to just 'BS'... ;)

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk



Chuck Hursch wrote:

> I really haven't seen much discussion on the List (or elsewhere) as to
> how to monitor the charging status remotely. In this case, it sounds
> like tomw dropped 1.5 hrs of charging time. He came back to his EV
> after an extended time away, expecting it to have a good charge, and
> he
> came back to silence, no charge, and a problem.
>
> That brings back memories. In July 1996 on a Sat., my first item of
> the
> day was to attend the EBEAA meeting over at the Alameda Naval Air
> Station, some 26 miles distant over in East Bay from my home. We
> could
> always obtain charging over at the East Bay meetings, but with just
> 120V
> K&W BC-20 charging, you needed to get on the juice and stay on it for
> quite some time. I hooked up to the AC distribution box with 120V
> outlets sourcing from a 240V outlet. Went in to the 10AM EBEAA
> meeting,
> expecting my car to have enough juice to comfortably roll back up the
> freeway towards home. I had a 12-noon windsurfing engagement at the
> Berkeley Marina with a beautiful Thai co-worker who had invited me for
> some splash time. I planned on leaving the EBEAA meeting somewhat
> early
> to get to the Marina on time ;^>.
>
> The meeting essentials done with, I walked out to the car. It
> should've
> still been charging away, but silence. Yuck! That sinking feeling of
> little or no juice in the batteries, and having to drive some
> significant miles on freeways and high interchanges on the bottom half
> of my pack. Ain't no way I was going to make it home without some
> watchin'-moss-grow-on-a-tree 120V charge time.
>
> I made it to the Marina on time after getting lost in Alameda housing,
> now down to the bottom quarter of the pack. Starting to feel a little
> soft under the pedal. It turned out that my co-splashee didn't show
> up
> till about a half hour after noon, and no surfboards were available
> for
> about another half hour because of a class. So I put my time to use
> to
> track down an outlet for charging. I obtained permission after some
> hunting around to charge off a little 120V outlet with Coke machine in
> tandem. The charger got turned down significantly. I had no way to
> monitor charging progress for the several hours I was away splashing
> (yes, my first time windsurfing).
>
> I had over 20 miles to get home at this point, including a major grade
> westbound (read headwind) over the San Rafael - Richmond Br. I
> figured
> I was going to be using a fellow EV'ers charging outlet up the road
> for
> a few hours. Fortunately, that worked in well for some further time
> at
> the nearby Mexican restaurant with my co-worker.
>
> I made it home, but all the anxiety/time with the cords, circuit
> breakers, and hunting around for outlets could've been reduced or
> eliminated if I had had a means of monitoring the charging outlet
> while
> in the EV meeting. While we didn't have iPhones or Droids back
> then, a
> monitoring app or a keychain micro app sure would've been nice.
> Circuit
> breaker trips screwed me up other times. It's one of the reasons
> the EV
> stays close to home these days, along with nearly zip charging
> infrastructure and acquiring a gas car. What little I hear about
> remote
> monitoring maybe means that I'll be writing that app (which I'm
> certainly looking forward to doing)...
>
> tomw wrote:
>> I charged at an RV park for the first time yesterday. I charged
>> for about 10
>> minutes just to test it out. I charged there again today, planning
>> to fully
>> charge to extend my range. I plugged into a NEMA14-50, turned on the
>> Manzanita PFC30 switch, and adjusted the charge current up to 28ADC
>> (~120V
>> pack, so about 14A from the 50A AC outlet). The TBS gauge read
>> 41.1Ah used,
>> everything looked good, so I went for a walk and got a cup of coffee,
>> expecting it to require about 1 1/2 hour to charge. When I
>> returned about 1
>> hour later the charger was off and the TBS read 41.0Ah used, so it
>> must have
>> kicked off almost immediately after I walked away. I turned the
>> charger
>> current knob down to zero, and flipped the charger switch back on.
>> There
>> was a loud clack and it immediately flipped back off. I have been
>> using
>> this charger on a 240V outlet at home for almost 1 year, and had
>> charged
>> about an hour earlier at home before leaving. When I returned home
>> I tried
>> it again with the same result, and it kicked off the 50A GFCI
>> breaker on the
>> wall. I pulled an interconnect wire on a cell level board and the
>> minibms
>> alarmed, so it is still working fine. The EKM meter on the AC
>> input to the
>> charger is still working fine also. Any ideas what happened?
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk



_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Re: [EVDL] Got Juice? - ie., is the charger charging? (WAS: Re: Manzanita failure)

In case a "catastrophic" event happens like your
charger conking out instead of finishing charging,
if you can detect the situation (pack voltage
returns to a level below charging or finish charge)
then you can use a cheap cell phone and a contact
on the dial button to kick it into transmit mode
and there are several phones that will automatically
dial (either a programmed or the last dialed number)
when engaging the dial button 1 or 2 times.

Now you just need to keep the phone and SIM charged up...

(how to create 2 problems by solving one question ;-)

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Chuck Hursch
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 3:31 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Got Juice? - ie., is the charger charging? (WAS: Re:
Manzanita failure)

I really haven't seen much discussion on the List (or elsewhere) as to
how to monitor the charging status remotely. In this case, it sounds
like tomw dropped 1.5 hrs of charging time. He came back to his EV
after an extended time away, expecting it to have a good charge, and he
came back to silence, no charge, and a problem.

That brings back memories. In July 1996 on a Sat., my first item of the
day was to attend the EBEAA meeting over at the Alameda Naval Air
Station, some 26 miles distant over in East Bay from my home. We could
always obtain charging over at the East Bay meetings, but with just 120V
K&W BC-20 charging, you needed to get on the juice and stay on it for
quite some time. I hooked up to the AC distribution box with 120V
outlets sourcing from a 240V outlet. Went in to the 10AM EBEAA meeting,
expecting my car to have enough juice to comfortably roll back up the
freeway towards home. I had a 12-noon windsurfing engagement at the
Berkeley Marina with a beautiful Thai co-worker who had invited me for
some splash time. I planned on leaving the EBEAA meeting somewhat early
to get to the Marina on time ;^>.

The meeting essentials done with, I walked out to the car. It should've
still been charging away, but silence. Yuck! That sinking feeling of
little or no juice in the batteries, and having to drive some
significant miles on freeways and high interchanges on the bottom half
of my pack. Ain't no way I was going to make it home without some
watchin'-moss-grow-on-a-tree 120V charge time.

I made it to the Marina on time after getting lost in Alameda housing,
now down to the bottom quarter of the pack. Starting to feel a little
soft under the pedal. It turned out that my co-splashee didn't show up
till about a half hour after noon, and no surfboards were available for
about another half hour because of a class. So I put my time to use to
track down an outlet for charging. I obtained permission after some
hunting around to charge off a little 120V outlet with Coke machine in
tandem. The charger got turned down significantly. I had no way to
monitor charging progress for the several hours I was away splashing
(yes, my first time windsurfing).

I had over 20 miles to get home at this point, including a major grade
westbound (read headwind) over the San Rafael - Richmond Br. I figured
I was going to be using a fellow EV'ers charging outlet up the road for
a few hours. Fortunately, that worked in well for some further time at
the nearby Mexican restaurant with my co-worker.

I made it home, but all the anxiety/time with the cords, circuit
breakers, and hunting around for outlets could've been reduced or
eliminated if I had had a means of monitoring the charging outlet while
in the EV meeting. While we didn't have iPhones or Droids back then, a
monitoring app or a keychain micro app sure would've been nice. Circuit
breaker trips screwed me up other times. It's one of the reasons the EV
stays close to home these days, along with nearly zip charging
infrastructure and acquiring a gas car. What little I hear about remote
monitoring maybe means that I'll be writing that app (which I'm
certainly looking forward to doing)...

tomw wrote:
> I charged at an RV park for the first time yesterday. I charged for
> about 10 minutes just to test it out. I charged there again today,
> planning to fully charge to extend my range. I plugged into a
> NEMA14-50, turned on the Manzanita PFC30 switch, and adjusted the
> charge current up to 28ADC (~120V pack, so about 14A from the 50A AC
> outlet). The TBS gauge read 41.1Ah used, everything looked good, so I
> went for a walk and got a cup of coffee, expecting it to require about

> 1 1/2 hour to charge. When I returned about 1 hour later the charger
> was off and the TBS read 41.0Ah used, so it must have kicked off
> almost immediately after I walked away. I turned the charger current
> knob down to zero, and flipped the charger switch back on. There was
> a loud clack and it immediately flipped back off. I have been using
> this charger on a 240V outlet at home for almost 1 year, and had
> charged about an hour earlier at home before leaving. When I returned

> home I tried it again with the same result, and it kicked off the 50A
> GFCI breaker on the wall. I pulled an interconnect wire on a cell
> level board and the minibms alarmed, so it is still working fine. The
EKM meter on the AC input to the charger is still working fine also.
Any ideas what happened?



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| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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·
Registered
Joined
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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Re: [EVDL] Got Juice? - ie., is the charger charging? (WAS: Re: Manzanita failure)

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for responding to the post.

Ok, TeamViewer or the like might be the ticket and might justify getting
a iPhone or Droid at some point. I had figured it was going to be wifi
(with range limitation) or cellphone (probably better, since if you're
charging and going someplace away from the car, you're almost certainly
covered by a cell network; if you leave your car somewhere to charge and
go home, you can still track your charging situation remotely).

Are those cell phone dongles pricy? More to investigate!

It would certainly up the comfort level to have this kind of setup, and
cut the urge to go check the car.

As for the charger dying, that is a weakness of EVs. Gas cars wouldn't
have that problem. Off-board chargers, such as the GM EV1 MagnaCharger
setup, would also be more like a gas car. If your on-board charger
dies, well you're kinda screwed... Backup cheapo variac, as I have
thought about, well that's kinda heavy and is more to fuss with. I've
never had a charger die in the field, knock on wood. I've had two die
at home (where I've done most of my charging, all of it these days).
K&W BC-20 and Zivan K2: each blew a rectifier. Simple repair for
sending it into a shop, a gotch'a show-stopper in the field.

Chuck

Martin WINLOW wrote:
> Chuck,
>
> You could get a computer-based BMonS (that's a Battery Monitoring
> System as opposed to BManS or BMMS which monitors AND manages) or at
> least one which has an RS232 or similar output and then use a mobile
> (cell phone) dongle to give it web access and then use TeamViewer (or
> any other remote access app) on your iPhone to view the EV computer -
> and the BMonS - remotely. It would obviously work with wifi too as
> long as you were in range such when your at home or work. If that's
> too much, you could get your EV computer to ping you sms's every 20
> mins or whatever or, better still (or as well as) send it a special
> coded sms and it'll send a status report one back - like on my EV...
>
> Regards, Martin Winlow
> Herts, UK
> http://www.evalbum.com/2092
> www.winlow.co.uk
>
>
>
>
Chuck Hursch wrote:
>
>> I really haven't seen much discussion on the List (or elsewhere) as to
>> how to monitor the charging status remotely. In this case, it sounds
>> like tomw dropped 1.5 hrs of charging time. He came back to his EV
>> after an extended time away, expecting it to have a good charge, and
>> he
>> came back to silence, no charge, and a problem.
>>
>> That brings back memories. In July 1996 on a Sat., my first item of
>> the
>> day was to attend the EBEAA meeting over at the Alameda Naval Air
>> Station, some 26 miles distant over in East Bay from my home. We
>> could
>> always obtain charging over at the East Bay meetings, but with just
>> 120V
>> K&W BC-20 charging, you needed to get on the juice and stay on it for
>> quite some time. I hooked up to the AC distribution box with 120V
>> outlets sourcing from a 240V outlet. Went in to the 10AM EBEAA
>> meeting,
>> expecting my car to have enough juice to comfortably roll back up the
>> freeway towards home. I had a 12-noon windsurfing engagement at the
>> Berkeley Marina with a beautiful Thai co-worker who had invited me for
>> some splash time. I planned on leaving the EBEAA meeting somewhat
>> early
>> to get to the Marina on time ;^>.
>>
>> The meeting essentials done with, I walked out to the car. It
>> should've
>> still been charging away, but silence. Yuck! That sinking feeling of
>> little or no juice in the batteries, and having to drive some
>> significant miles on freeways and high interchanges on the bottom half
>> of my pack. Ain't no way I was going to make it home without some
>> watchin'-moss-grow-on-a-tree 120V charge time.
>>
>> I made it to the Marina on time after getting lost in Alameda housing,
>> now down to the bottom quarter of the pack. Starting to feel a little
>> soft under the pedal. It turned out that my co-splashee didn't show
>> up
>> till about a half hour after noon, and no surfboards were available
>> for
>> about another half hour because of a class. So I put my time to use
>> to
>> track down an outlet for charging. I obtained permission after some
>> hunting around to charge off a little 120V outlet with Coke machine in
>> tandem. The charger got turned down significantly. I had no way to
>> monitor charging progress for the several hours I was away splashing
>> (yes, my first time windsurfing).
>>
>> I had over 20 miles to get home at this point, including a major grade
>> westbound (read headwind) over the San Rafael - Richmond Br. I
>> figured
>> I was going to be using a fellow EV'ers charging outlet up the road
>> for
>> a few hours. Fortunately, that worked in well for some further time
>> at
>> the nearby Mexican restaurant with my co-worker.
>>
>> I made it home, but all the anxiety/time with the cords, circuit
>> breakers, and hunting around for outlets could've been reduced or
>> eliminated if I had had a means of monitoring the charging outlet
>> while
>> in the EV meeting. While we didn't have iPhones or Droids back
>> then, a
>> monitoring app or a keychain micro app sure would've been nice.
>> Circuit
>> breaker trips screwed me up other times. It's one of the reasons
>> the EV
>> stays close to home these days, along with nearly zip charging
>> infrastructure and acquiring a gas car. What little I hear about
>> remote
>> monitoring maybe means that I'll be writing that app (which I'm
>> certainly looking forward to doing)...
>>
>> tomw wrote:
>>> I charged at an RV park for the first time yesterday. I charged
>>> for about 10
>>> minutes just to test it out. I charged there again today, planning
>>> to fully
>>> charge to extend my range. I plugged into a NEMA14-50, turned on the
>>> Manzanita PFC30 switch, and adjusted the charge current up to 28ADC
>>> (~120V
>>> pack, so about 14A from the 50A AC outlet). The TBS gauge read
>>> 41.1Ah used,
>>> everything looked good, so I went for a walk and got a cup of coffee,
>>> expecting it to require about 1 1/2 hour to charge. When I
>>> returned about 1
>>> hour later the charger was off and the TBS read 41.0Ah used, so it
>>> must have
>>> kicked off almost immediately after I walked away. I turned the
>>> charger
>>> current knob down to zero, and flipped the charger switch back on.
>>> There
>>> was a loud clack and it immediately flipped back off. I have been
>>> using
>>> this charger on a 240V outlet at home for almost 1 year, and had
>>> charged
>>> about an hour earlier at home before leaving. When I returned home
>>> I tried
>>> it again with the same result, and it kicked off the 50A GFCI
>>> breaker on the
>>> wall. I pulled an interconnect wire on a cell level board and the
>>> minibms
>>> alarmed, so it is still working fine. The EKM meter on the AC
>>> input to the
>>> charger is still working fine also. Any ideas what happened?
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
> Regards, Martin Winlow
> Herts, UK
> http://www.evalbum.com/2092
> www.winlow.co.uk
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Discussion Starter #7
Re: [EVDL] Got Juice? - ie., is the charger charging? (WAS: Re: Manzanita failure)

"Would http://www.serialio.com/products/SerialMagic/use/Multimeter_BT_AAA.php
be something like you were thinking of?"

That would work for me. The pack voltage increases around a couple volts
when charging at 30A, and I know it gets to about 124V at around 95% charge.
So I could just note the voltage before I turn on the charger, and after I
turn up the charge current. Then if the voltage drops below the latter
level at any time I would know the charger has cut back current or shut off.
Would still need to charge within return distance of home, unless I make
something like a bad boy charger as backup. The former would permit me to
extend my round-trip range to around 110 miles or more depending on driving
speed.

I received the charger back from Manzanita yesterday. The packing slip said
the input rectifier board was replaced. No bill enclosed, so apparently no
charge for the repair and return shipping! Maybe because it is a bit less
than 1 year old. I shipped it out Monday morning and got it back on Thursday
afternoon.
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Discussion Starter #8
Re: [EVDL] Got Juice? - ie., is the charger charging? (WAS: Re: Manzanita failure)

> "Would http://www.serialio.com/products/SerialMagic/use/Multimeter_BT_AAA.php
> be something like you were thinking of?"

It's hard to me to figure out exactly how this would work. Could someone
explain?

1. It appears to read the serial data from a particular meter
(Protek 506). I happened to have one of these meters; it worked
for a year and died. As I recall, it sent encoded data (its LCD
segments, rather than ASCII values). I had to run a Windows
program on my PC to read its data.

2. I assume their device translates RS-232 data into Bluetooth RF
data, which needs to be received by some device with Bluetooth.
Won't most Bluetooth devices ignore it, because it's not a
headset or other expected device?

3. They show a too-small-to-read screen on a high-end mobile phone
that I guess is supposed to be telling you what the meter reads.
Where does the software come from that translates the meter's
segments into sensible readings on the phone?

4. The Protek meter I had was strictly battery operated (no AC
adapter option). It also automatically shut itself off after
15 minutes of use, with no option to keep it on. Their Bluetooth
device is also battery operated, and probably can't operate for
very long. How would you get around that?

5. What is this whole affair going to cost? It looks like a number
of over-$100-each black boxes are needed.
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Discussion Starter #9
Re: [EVDL] Got Juice? - ie., is the charger charging? (WAS: Re: Manzanita failure)

Lee Hart wrote:
>> "Would http://www.serialio.com/products/SerialMagic/use/Multimeter_BT_AAA.php
>> be something like you were thinking of?"
>
> It's hard to me to figure out exactly how this would work. Could someone
> explain?
>
> 1. It appears to read the serial data from a particular meter
> (Protek 506). I happened to have one of these meters; it worked
> for a year and died. As I recall, it sent encoded data (its LCD
> segments, rather than ASCII values). I had to run a Windows
> program on my PC to read its data.
>
> 2. I assume their device translates RS-232 data into Bluetooth RF
> data, which needs to be received by some device with Bluetooth.
> Won't most Bluetooth devices ignore it, because it's not a
> headset or other expected device?
>
> 3. They show a too-small-to-read screen on a high-end mobile phone
> that I guess is supposed to be telling you what the meter reads.
> Where does the software come from that translates the meter's
> segments into sensible readings on the phone?
>
> 4. The Protek meter I had was strictly battery operated (no AC
> adapter option). It also automatically shut itself off after
> 15 minutes of use, with no option to keep it on. Their Bluetooth
> device is also battery operated, and probably can't operate for
> very long. How would you get around that?
>
> 5. What is this whole affair going to cost? It looks like a number
> of over-$100-each black boxes are needed.

SerialMagic is the _software_. The hardware is a standard RS-232 to
bluetooth dongle. Bluetooth SPP (serial port profile) is a standard way
to "extend" a serial port via bluetooth. Their software gets installed
on the mobile device and does the translation of whatever weird protocol
the particular scanner/meter uses. In this case the Protek. I think
you'd want to find a more appropriate meter for long-term monitoring.

--Rick

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Discussion Starter #10
Re: [EVDL] Got Juice? - ie., is the charger charging? (WAS: Re: Manzanita failure)

Rick Beebe wrote:
> Lee Hart wrote:
>>> "Would http://www.serialio.com/products/SerialMagic/use/Multimeter_BT_AAA.php
>>> be something like you were thinking of?"
>> It's hard to me to figure out exactly how this would work. Could someone
>> explain?
>>
>> 1. It appears to read the serial data from a particular meter
>> (Protek 506). I happened to have one of these meters; it worked
>> for a year and died. As I recall, it sent encoded data (its LCD
>> segments, rather than ASCII values). I had to run a Windows
>> program on my PC to read its data.
>>
>> 2. I assume their device translates RS-232 data into Bluetooth RF
>> data, which needs to be received by some device with Bluetooth.
>> Won't most Bluetooth devices ignore it, because it's not a
>> headset or other expected device?
>>
>> 3. They show a too-small-to-read screen on a high-end mobile phone
>> that I guess is supposed to be telling you what the meter reads.
>> Where does the software come from that translates the meter's
>> segments into sensible readings on the phone?
>>
>> 4. The Protek meter I had was strictly battery operated (no AC
>> adapter option). It also automatically shut itself off after
>> 15 minutes of use, with no option to keep it on. Their Bluetooth
>> device is also battery operated, and probably can't operate for
>> very long. How would you get around that?
>>
>> 5. What is this whole affair going to cost? It looks like a number
>> of over-$100-each black boxes are needed.
>
> SerialMagic is the _software_. The hardware is a standard RS-232 to
> bluetooth dongle. Bluetooth SPP (serial port profile) is a standard way
> to "extend" a serial port via bluetooth. Their software gets installed
> on the mobile device and does the translation of whatever weird protocol
> the particular scanner/meter uses. In this case the Protek. I think
> you'd want to find a more appropriate meter for long-term monitoring.
>
> --Rick

SerialMagic or BlueSoleil is the software that runs on your computer
that provides a set of profiles, one of which is the serial port
profile. So here's the sequence that I used to get things going (before
my laptop's harddrive died a couple of days ago):

1) Prepping the EV to charge: connect RS22812 DMM to BT232B bluetooth
dongle (US Converters, ~$48) with serial cable. The BT232B dongle is
powered by a 3-pack (nominal 3 * 1.25V) of AA NiMH batteries (charged
for an hour or two before each charge of the EV). The NiMH batts are
2500mAH and somewhat old. The dongle draws 70mA, so if it sits down
there running for ten hours, then roughly 700mAH is used each night.
I'll charge those batts up fully each weekend, so they see somewhat the
usage of a Prius in cycling. It works, they're paid for. So back to
setup... Turn on dongle, the red light comes on, and blue light
flickers. Turn on RS22812 DMM (hooked up via Y-connector of Anderson's
to car's traction pack). Push the button sequence for RS232 output (the
DMM stays on, does not time-out). The timer I've also set up will turn
on the EV's charger at midnight (or whenever).

2) Go up to the apt. The bluetooth dongle is in the USB port of the
laptop. I had to purchase a larger dongle from US Converters ( USB
Serial Bluetooth Adapter 300 (BLDONG2), $19.75). When WinXP boots up,
usually the BlueSoleil screen is up. It has a list of profiles, one
"sun" in the center, and in orbit previously setup (paired) objects, one
of which happens to be a serial dongle. Since I'm already paired
(passcode set, etc.), all I have to do is double click on that serial
icon, the Discovery service kicks off and finds it out there, and the
icon goes green with little pulses of info going to the sun. My serial
port is COM13. The little blue light on the dongle down in the car will
now be steady if I look, the dongle drawing 70mA.

3) Now I have to fire up the software to read the DMM data coming
through the pipe. I use rs22812.py (a python program I found on the
Internet). You would want to use rs22812_linux.py, which is misnamed,
since it has some upgrades I made to it, but that is what the author
named it. You'll need python on your windows machine. My invocation
line is (in a command window):

rs22812_linux.py -i 60 -p COM13

which gives me a reading from the DMM once a minute through COM13.

The output looks like:

10Sep2010-00:19:36 [1] ('100.2 V', 'DC V', ('Auto',))
10Sep2010-00:20:37 [2] ('100.2 V', 'DC V', ('Auto',))
10Sep2010-00:21:38 [3] ('101.4 V', 'DC V', ('Auto',))
10Sep2010-00:22:39 [4] ('103.0 V', 'DC V', ('Auto',))
10Sep2010-00:23:40 [5] ('103.6 V', 'DC V', ('Auto',))
.
.
.

where in this case the timer was set to start charging at 12:20AM.

So far, the little 9V battery in the DMM is running far longer than I
thought it would. It's still going, the display looks fine and fairly
high contrast, and no battery symbol yet. I would say it's got 200-300
hours running, as opposed to spec of 100 hours with no RS232 output.

I am having an occasional rs22812_linux.py program crash. It will
happen every few nights after several hours running. It appears there
is a buffering problem on the input coming up from the DMM. I've
documented it, also reproduced it on a USB-serial dongle with no
bluetooth, and haven't gotten around to figuring out a fix to propose to
the program author.

So Lee, I also wanted to get amp readings, as we discussed some months
ago. Maybe another way to do that is with a piconet coming in via the
bluetooth. The question is cost and how it all hooks together. I don't
want to buy an expensive dongle for every parameter.



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Discussion Starter #11
Re: [EVDL] Got Juice? - ie., is the charger charging? (WAS: Re: Manzanita failure)

Let me try to make this really simple:
- Take a run-of-the-mill old cellphone with prepaid SIM, so it
will cost you one call per charge cycle, less than $2 per week.
- See that your cell phone is old enough that you can solder
two leads on the call button
- Check the phone that it can automatically dial a number when
the call button is pushed
- Connect the two leads to a relay via a switch
- activate the relay with a comparator (use an extra contact
to light a LED to show when the comparator activates the relay)
- tune the comparator with a potmeter to activate if the
pack voltage drops lower than the level at which you left the vehicle
charging
- close the switch so that the cellphone will dial your number
when the pack voltage drops.
- the components at the input of the comparator do not need to be
more than a zener diode as voltage reference (with R and C)
and a pack voltage prescaler and potmeter with a C against noise.
- When the call is sent, you will recognise the phone number on
your cell, so there is no need for a message. When you have no
voicemail and you do not take the call, it may even be
completely free...

Hope this gives some ideas to do it on a budget and simple to
understand circuits.
Make sure you can disconnect the cell phone to recharge it and
to refill its SIM with additional call minutes.

NOTE that a cell phone does not work always and needs to be able to
reach the cell tower, so do not hide it under the hood in a metal box!

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 9:21 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Got Juice? - ie., is the charger charging? (WAS: Re:
Manzanita failure)

> "Would
> http://www.serialio.com/products/SerialMagic/use/Multimeter_BT_AAA.php
> be something like you were thinking of?"

It's hard to me to figure out exactly how this would work. Could someone
explain?

1. It appears to read the serial data from a particular meter
(Protek 506). I happened to have one of these meters; it worked
for a year and died. As I recall, it sent encoded data (its LCD
segments, rather than ASCII values). I had to run a Windows
program on my PC to read its data.

2. I assume their device translates RS-232 data into Bluetooth RF
data, which needs to be received by some device with Bluetooth.
Won't most Bluetooth devices ignore it, because it's not a
headset or other expected device?

3. They show a too-small-to-read screen on a high-end mobile phone
that I guess is supposed to be telling you what the meter reads.
Where does the software come from that translates the meter's
segments into sensible readings on the phone?

4. The Protek meter I had was strictly battery operated (no AC
adapter option). It also automatically shut itself off after
15 minutes of use, with no option to keep it on. Their Bluetooth
device is also battery operated, and probably can't operate for
very long. How would you get around that?

5. What is this whole affair going to cost? It looks like a number
of over-$100-each black boxes are needed.
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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Discussion Starter #12
Re: [EVDL] Got Juice? - ie., is the charger charging? (WAS: Re: Manzanita failure)

Lee wrote:
> This setup costs you nothing for monthly cellphone fees.

Correct and depending on the quality and power of the
walkie-talkies you could reach some distance before it
becomes an issue that other users on the same channel
will be interfering too often for your comfort.
The buzzer can then help to distinguish between your
charger alarm and the neighborhood kids playing with
their new toys.
BTW - the monthly fees were the reason I suggested a
pre-paid SIM which only costs you actual call minutes,
within reason (requirement to top up twice a year or so).

There are many other ways of sending a message over some
distance, some might involve amateur (HAM) radio or CB
(Citizens Band) or the more ubiquitous Wi-Fi and Cellphone
modules of today. If the issue is not the distance but more
the fact that you have no line of sight (like you are sitting
not too far from the vehicle but you do not want to get up
all the time to check if the charger light is still on) then
another "wireless" technology of old is acoustic. Old remote
control units and TVs had an ultrasone buzzer and microphone
so you controlled the TV essentially with beeps.
Newer units use a high power IR (Infrared) LED and sensor
and modulate the signal with a specific frequency, so that
even when the sun shines into the room and floods it with
IR, you can still filter out the specific control frequency.

Other options are low power transmitters for FM (100MHz) or
headphones, where you probably want to do the reverse logic:
the transmitter is on and sends audio from your car's stereo
until the charger stops.

Probably an OEM solution involves the car's satellite comm
which sends a message via an orbiting satellite to a ground
station and after checking your online profile either calls
you, sends you an SMS or initiates a Skype session...

In the near future the Smart Grid might allow you to check
the power draw from the outlet where you plugged in and
you can write an APP for your smartphone that will alert
you if that power level suddenly goes down before the
charging time you expected.

I once had a micro-inverter for a solar panel that had an
embedded transmitter, so that every few seconds it would
update its status, input and output power, so that you
could monitor its operation from a tiny receiver plugged
into your PC without connecting it to the panels.

Here you want to reach a larger distance, so it is likely
more appropriate to use a transmitter like that used to
control RC planes and carry the receiver that sits in the
plane normally.

Success!

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

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Discussion Starter #13
Re: [EVDL] Got Juice? - ie., is the charger charging? (WAS: Re: Manzanita failure)

I posted: "No bill enclosed, so apparently no charge for the repair and
return shipping!"

Well, they are just slow on invoicing. I received a bill for $111.19 today.
Also shipped the charger back again today. I charged with it twice after I
received it back. Then I turned on the switch and nothing happened. No
lights, no fan, nothing. Manzanita said it sounded like the power supply,
and had me check the fuse. It was ok. I asked them to just send be a power
supply since it is cheaper than shipping the charger back and forth, but
Rich wanted the charger sent back.
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Discussion Starter #14
Re: [EVDL] Got Juice? - ie., is the charger charging? (WAS: Re: Manzanita failure)

"Also shipped the charger back again today. I charged with it twice after I
received it back. Then I turned on the switch and nothing happened. No
lights, no fan, nothing."
Embarrassing to report that it was just the breaker on the charger. Rich
said only one side had tripped, so it had to be forced down rather hard to
reset it. I had noticed it seemed higher than normal, but wasn't certain,
so didn't want to push too hard for fear of breaking it. The force I felt I
normally apply to a tripped breaker didn't do it. Rich just forced it down
with the thought that he would fix it or break it and replace it. Don't
know why only one side tripped.
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Discussion Starter #15
Re: [EVDL] Got Juice? - ie., is the charger charging? (WAS: Re: Manzanita failure)

Hello Tom,

Normally when a 2 pole breaker trips, one line sees the fault before the
other line does. The problem with a tie handle to make two single pole
breakers into a 2 pole, that one breaker will trip while the other one is
still on.

It is best to use a common trip 2 pole breaker which the handle is one solid
unit.

To reset a trip breaker, you first turn it on and than turn it off. In your
charger, make sure your current knob is turn all the way down or unplug the
AC line.

Sometimes when the overload trips inside the breaker, the handle will not
move. I find that when a breaker usage or age, will cause this effect.

I do not know what the interrupting fault rating of this breaker is, but is
best when install a series of feeder breakers, is to have the first one off
the main panel to have the highest interrupting rating and the next one at a
lower rating.

For example, the main breaker in a circuit breaker panel may have a 65,000
amp interrupting rating, the branch breaker should then be a 22,500 amp
interrupting rating and the equipment should be 10,000 amp interrupting
rating. The branch breaker and equipment breaker can have the same overload
rating.

Another way to do this, is have the first breaker in the panel at a higher
amp rating like a 50 amp with No. 6 AWG wire to the main AC input plug, then
a 40 amp chassis mount breaker with No. 8 AWG wire in the EV which goes to a
30 amp breaker in the charger.

Did you know in a home or other type of installation, if a breaker goes bad,
you can replace it free at a electrical supply house that handle that brand.
If a electrical company replaces a breaker, there should only be labor
charge.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "tomw" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 7:25 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Got Juice? - ie., is the charger charging? (WAS: Re:
Manzanita failure)


>
> "Also shipped the charger back again today. I charged with it twice after
> I
> received it back. Then I turned on the switch and nothing happened. No
> lights, no fan, nothing."
> Embarrassing to report that it was just the breaker on the charger. Rich
> said only one side had tripped, so it had to be forced down rather hard to
> reset it. I had noticed it seemed higher than normal, but wasn't certain,
> so didn't want to push too hard for fear of breaking it. The force I felt
> I
> normally apply to a tripped breaker didn't do it. Rich just forced it
> down
> with the thought that he would fix it or break it and replace it. Don't
> know why only one side tripped.
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Manzanita-failure-tp2535870p2553556.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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