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Discussion Starter #1
Re: [EVDL] Group 31 battery size

Group 31 battery size: 13 x 6 13/18 x 9 7/16.
Bill

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Discussion Starter #2
Re: [EVDL] Group 31 battery size

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill & Nancy" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Group 31 battery size


> Group 31 battery size: 13 x 6 13/18 x 9 7/16.
> Bill
>

This is the same group battery I have for my 12 volt accessory battery which
has a reserved capacity of 225 minutes at 25 amps and rated at 130 AH.

When new, I use it to break in my Warp 9 motor. It could only run the motor
for about 30 minutes and when the voltage was reduce to 10.5, it drops like
a rock. By the time I turn off the power, in another micro second, the
voltage was already down to 8 volt.

Roland

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Discussion Starter #3
Re: [EVDL] Group 31 battery size

... and seem to be around 63 lbs each and ratings
around 100Ah (+/-).

On the otherhand, Firefly's version should be much
lighter (70% less lead) and have a higher aH rating
(like 50% more, e.g. around 150Ah?).

So, for a 120v EV, 10 of today's group 31 batts
typically would be 630lbs and like a 30-40 mile range
(120v x 100Ah = 12000Wh. At 300Wh/mile, about 40
miles).

So, with Firefly, about 60 mile range and assuming 60
of the 63 lbs of a regular batt is the lead, FF would
be about about 21 lbs each x 10 equals just 210 lbs.

And it still retains 90% of charge capability after
over 3 times the normal cycles of today's batts.

Sounds too good to be true... supposedly the price
should be just a little above today's lead-acid
equivalent.

I'm lickin' my chops and waiting to see if they come
out next year and how much they'll be.

Scott

p.s. Please chime in if my numbers are off...



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Discussion Starter #4
Re: [EVDL] Group 31 battery size

S Collins wrote:

> p.s. Please chime in if my numbers are off...

Since the Firefly is still vapourware, it is difficult to say which of
your numbers may be off and by how much.

One of Firefly's statements has been that they *expect* their battery to
cost about 2x the $/kWh as present AGMs, which I think is more than "a
little more" than other lead acid ;^>.

I look forward to actual Firefly product being available for testing so
we can see just how well it does.

Cheers,

Roger.

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Discussion Starter #5
Re: [EVDL] Group 31 battery size

I have a hard time imaging them being 3x lighter. Maybe I lack imagination?

The greater AH in the batt is not the only benefit, the real kicker is
would be if they're gonna decrease the Peukert factor to something so
low that effectively all the AH are usable. Then the range is gonna be
quite practical, especially if they tolerate deep-cycling like they say.

Again, things never seem to turn out as promised. A possible scenario
is that they could stay limited to high-dollar military and industrial
apps for quite a few years, eventually being available to non-OEMs but
at a high price. It could take many years for it to truly go into
off-the-shelf mass production where they're "cheap". But it's hard to
say, they're saving a lot on lead, maybe the big auto mfg'ers would
actually show the interest in EVs here and get them out there faster.

Danny

S Collins wrote:

>... and seem to be around 63 lbs each and ratings
>around 100Ah (+/-).
>
>On the otherhand, Firefly's version should be much
>lighter (70% less lead) and have a higher aH rating
>(like 50% more, e.g. around 150Ah?).
>
>So, for a 120v EV, 10 of today's group 31 batts
>typically would be 630lbs and like a 30-40 mile range
>(120v x 100Ah = 12000Wh. At 300Wh/mile, about 40
>miles).
>
>So, with Firefly, about 60 mile range and assuming 60
>of the 63 lbs of a regular batt is the lead, FF would
>be about about 21 lbs each x 10 equals just 210 lbs.
>
>And it still retains 90% of charge capability after
>over 3 times the normal cycles of today's batts.
>
>Sounds too good to be true... supposedly the price
>should be just a little above today's lead-acid
>equivalent.
>
>I'm lickin' my chops and waiting to see if they come
>out next year and how much they'll be.
>
>Scott
>
>p.s. Please chime in if my numbers are off...
>
>
>
>____________________________________________________________________________________
>Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.
>http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>

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Discussion Starter #6
Re: [EVDL] Group 31 battery size

The press release is very specifically about commercial trucking, not
military or industrial. They are targeting the group 31 form factor
because it is the most popular one in trucks. They are trying to get
them into the market to exploit the new CA five minute idling rule.
Truckers will no longer be allowed to idle their engines to provide
utility power while parked, so they will need large deep cycle batteries
instead of the typical starting batteries. They want to be able to
replace the starting batteries with the least cost and disruption to the
trucks and operators.

- kent

On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 14:50:46 -0500, "Danny Miller"
<[email protected]> said:
> Again, things never seem to turn out as promised. A possible scenario
> is that they could stay limited to high-dollar military and industrial
> apps for quite a few years, eventually being available to non-OEMs but
> at a high price. It could take many years for it to truly go into
> off-the-shelf mass production where they're "cheap". But it's hard to
> say, they're saving a lot on lead, maybe the big auto mfg'ers would
> actually show the interest in EVs here and get them out there faster.

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Discussion Starter #7
Re: [EVDL] Group 31 battery size

Can anyone say with any authority whether these "trucker" batteries would even be suitable for EV use?

----- Original Message ----
The press release is very specifically about commercial trucking, not
military or industrial. They are targeting the group 31 form factor
because it is the most popular one in trucks. They are trying to get
them into the market to exploit the new CA five minute idling rule.
Truckers will no longer be allowed to idle their engines to provide
utility power while parked, so they will need large deep cycle batteries
instead of the typical starting batteries. They want to be able to
replace the starting batteries with the least cost and disruption to the
trucks and operators.




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Discussion Starter #8
Re: [EVDL] Group 31 battery size

On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 12:24:37 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>... and seem to be around 63 lbs each and ratings
>around 100Ah (+/-).
65 pounds is correct.
>On the otherhand, Firefly's version should be much
>lighter (70% less lead) and have a higher aH rating
>(like 50% more, e.g. around 150Ah?).
>
>So, for a 120v EV, 10 of today's group 31 batts
>typically would be 630lbs and like a 30-40 mile range
>(120v x 100Ah = 12000Wh. At 300Wh/mile, about 40
>miles).

That is what the specs for my car are.

>So, with Firefly, about 60 mile range and assuming 60
>of the 63 lbs of a regular batt is the lead, FF would
>be about about 21 lbs each x 10 equals just 210 lbs.
>
>And it still retains 90% of charge capability after
>over 3 times the normal cycles of today's batts.
>
>Sounds too good to be true... supposedly the price
>should be just a little above today's lead-acid
>equivalent.
>
>I'm lickin' my chops and waiting to see if they come
>out next year and how much they'll be.

Me too.

>Scott
>
>p.s. Please chime in if my numbers are off...
>
Dead on.



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Discussion Starter #9
Re: [EVDL] Group 31 battery size

On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:45:28 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>Can anyone say with any authority whether these "trucker" batteries would even be suitable for EV use?

No authority but, this is what I have in my car. After sitting for
two years they are coming back nicely. We'll see.

R. M. Milliron

1981 Jet Electrica
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702

This machine has been garaged for 17 years.
I am upgrading it and getting it running. Tabitha,
my daughter, named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.



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Discussion Starter #10
Re: [EVDL] Group 31 battery size

R. Matt Milliron wrote:

> >Can anyone say with any authority whether these "trucker"
> >batteries would even be suitable for EV use?
>
> No authority but, this is what I have in my car. After sitting for
> two years they are coming back nicely. We'll see.

Just to be clear, you are not stating that you have had a set of these
specific (Firefly group31) batteries sitting in your car for 2 years,
but rather that you have *some* sort of group 31 *size* batteries in
there, right?

Just to be one step clearer, "group 31" refers to a specific standard
physical battery case size, and tells almost nothing about the capacity
or nature of the specific battery. Group 31 batteries are available in
gel, AGM, and flooded lead acid varieties, each of which has different
usable capacity and power/max current capability, etc.

I think the question here is suggesting that the battery that Firefly
produces will target the particular demands of this "trucker"
application, and may not be any more suitable for the rigours of EV use
than are (for instance) batteries intended for trolling motor
applications, even though both may be group 31 size.

Cheers,

Roger.

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Discussion Starter #11
Re: [EVDL] Group 31 battery size

you wrote:

>R. Matt Milliron wrote:
>
>> >Can anyone say with any authority whether these "trucker"
>> >batteries would even be suitable for EV use?
>>
>> No authority but, this is what I have in my car. After sitting for
>> two years they are coming back nicely. We'll see.
>
>Just to be clear, you are not stating that you have had a set of these
>specific (Firefly group31) batteries sitting in your car for 2 years,
>but rather that you have *some* sort of group 31 *size* batteries in
>there, right?
Yes.
>
>Just to be one step clearer, "group 31" refers to a specific standard
>physical battery case size, and tells almost nothing about the capacity
>or nature of the specific battery. Group 31 batteries are available in
>gel, AGM, and flooded lead acid varieties, each of which has different
>usable capacity and power/max current capability, etc.

I have 10, Generic, group 31, flooded lead, deep cycle batteries.

>I think the question here is suggesting that the battery that Firefly
>produces will target the particular demands of this "trucker"
>application, and may not be any more suitable for the rigours of EV use
>than are (for instance) batteries intended for trolling motor
>applications, even though both may be group 31 size.

If they are anything like what they advertise, I want some.

R. M. Milliron

1981 Jet Electrica
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702

This machine has been garaged for 17 years.
I am upgrading it and getting it running. Tabitha,
my daughter, named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.


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