[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen? and EVs

Hydrogen doesn't have to be a boondoggle!!!! What if we try to find a way
to use hydrogen to make EVs better.

Where I work we have 3 hydrogen vehicles, the one I like best is the Taylor
Dunn truck, I can go for weeks and weeks without plugging it in or
refueling, plugging it in is hard it's just that (flame suit ON) I think
hydrogen is cheaper.

The other two vehicles are reciprocating engines, these are converted
engines they were designed for gasoline so efficiency is poor, but then
again for me hydrogen is cheap energy.

Would a hydrogen fuel cell make a great range extender?. Just think, you
have a 5.5kw fuel cell running in your range extender trailer, or under the
hood and the only thing you hear is the cooling fan, or maybe you want to
consider converting you gasoline generator to run on hydrogen. I can't wait
to get my Chevy Volt with a fuel cell range extender in it.

How for the hydrogen fuel, this all started many years ago when the company
wanted to go green, we were already at 70 % alternative fuel in the fleet
when the boss's decided to throw hydrogen in the mix. The boss went to the
local school and asked them to help, after 3 years of planning and building
we have a solar powered hydrogen fueling station and three vehicles. (kids
are great they don't think "I cant" they just say "what if")

Photo of the solar powered hydrogen refueling station.
http://www.all-energy.co.uk/UserFiles/File/2007RobertBoehm.pdf

http://www.lvvwd.com/html/news_hydrogen_fueling_station.html



Richard Furniss
is it suppose to smoke like that ?
No trees were harmed in the creation of this message. But billions of
electrons were terribly inconvenienced!


----- Original Message -----
From: "robert harder" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 7:37 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen? What connector is this?


>
>
>
>>
>> So why is Hydrogen such a popular idea? Because it sounds sexy. It
>> sounds future. It looks shiny. It seems so clean, because the citizen
>> only sees the water coming out of the fuel cell.
>>
>> The problem is, it just doesn't make sense. It's a boondoggle.
>>
>>
> Hydrogen is popular because it has the backing backing of big oil and
> therefore big $ I firmly believe that they all know it doesn't make sense,
> but oil is the cheapest source of hydrogen, and selling hydrogen instead
> of gas (if it somehow ever made it that far) requires more oil and more
> processing to get the same btu's, the oil companies get to keep and sell
> more by-product after they sell the fuel, and in the meantime the media
> and the general public are kept happy on the promise of rosy wonderland
> just around the bend while we funnel $ after $ to researchers who are all
> to happy to keep promising results "tomorrow" with just a bit more funding
> today....ahh the frustration
>

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Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen? and EVs

A little Offtopiic but The hydrogen fueled fool cell range extender
sounds interesting.

I may have missed it, but I was wondering if you have numbers for your
refueling station on how much of the electricity generated is used for
electrolysis and how much is used just for the compressing.

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Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen? and EVs

Richard Furniss wrote:

>I think
>hydrogen is cheaper.
>
>
>
what do you pay for hydrogen?
as I understand it it would have to be miraculously cheap to be cheaper
than electric

Dan

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Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen? and EVs

I hope that this isn't too far off topic as we have a BEV-NEV with a fuel
cell (correct spelling) range extender. I talked to the engineer today and
he said that about 1/5 of the energy is used for compressing and 4/5 is in
making hydrogen. The solar array is 14kw A/C and it should produce 13kg of
hydrogen per day on solar.

The plan here was to develop a self sustaining hydrogen fueling station, we
give the fueling station water and sunlight and the fueling station gives us
hydrogen that turns back into water, I'm not sure about the sunlight? I
guess it's turned into heat, but I don't think it adds or subtracts any heat
from the planet.

The fuel cell company wants to makes units (kits) to install in existing gas
stations or homes to give BEV a way to go a little farther than normal than
batteries will take them.

I have been down to there lab and they have a lot of stuff laying around,
this stuff has to hit ebay some day.




----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 1:18 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen? and EVs


>A little Offtopiic but The hydrogen fueled fool cell range extender
> sounds interesting.
>
> I may have missed it, but I was wondering if you have numbers for your
> refueling station on how much of the electricity generated is used for
> electrolysis and how much is used just for the compressing.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen? and EVs

 

[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen? and EVs

I forgot to put the link in that Rick Hurt told me about, it's OK to email
him if you need more info.
http://www.hydrogen.unlv.edu/HFS.html

EVing on renewable energy





----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 1:18 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen? and EVs


>A little Offtopiic but The hydrogen fueled fool cell range extender
> sounds interesting.
>
> I may have missed it, but I was wondering if you have numbers for your
> refueling station on how much of the electricity generated is used for
> electrolysis and how much is used just for the compressing.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen? and EVs

 

[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen? and EVs

Evan Tuer"
> Just out of interest, how much energy (kWh) are you using to make that
> much hydrogen, and how far do your hydrogen cars go per kg (better
> still, how much energy do you get out of the fuel cell on the golf
> cart?)
>
The Taylor Dunn truck has a 5.5kw fuel cell on board, I'm not sure how much
fuel it uses, it will start up only when the batteries are low and then shut
off when the batteries are full, automatically.

Peter wrote,
>So, if one kilogram of H2 contains ~ 30kWh of energy then I can deduce
>that the sun shines for 27 hours a day where you live! Unless I got
>something wrong here (30kWh/kg*13kg/14kW)?

Maybe that's why it's so HOT in Las Vegas ;-)



Richard Furniss
is it suppose to smoke like that ?
No trees were harmed in the creation of this message. But billions of
electrons were terribly inconvenienced!








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Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen? and EVs

Hi Richard,

How soon will you be able to put a fuel cell into one of my Comutacars and
how much will it cost me? With all of the experience you have had working
on my cars you must know exactly what modifications would be needed.

Have you seen the fuel cell powered cars the city of Las Vegas leased? I
heard that they were working well but have not had a chance to see one.

Gail

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Furniss" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 6:54 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen? and EVs


>
> Evan Tuer"
>> Just out of interest, how much energy (kWh) are you using to make that
>> much hydrogen, and how far do your hydrogen cars go per kg (better
>> still, how much energy do you get out of the fuel cell on the golf
>> cart?)
>>
> The Taylor Dunn truck has a 5.5kw fuel cell on board, I'm not sure how
> much
> fuel it uses, it will start up only when the batteries are low and then
> shut
> off when the batteries are full, automatically.
>
> Peter wrote,
>>So, if one kilogram of H2 contains ~ 30kWh of energy then I can deduce
>>that the sun shines for 27 hours a day where you live! Unless I got
>>something wrong here (30kWh/kg*13kg/14kW)?
>
> Maybe that's why it's so HOT in Las Vegas ;-)
>
> Richard Furniss

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Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen? and EVs

 

[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen? and EVs

 

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Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen? and EVs

Evan,

You are correct what I should have said was that the present unit will
produce 13kg in 24 hour, his is a gas not liquid, the gas is compressed to
5000 psi.

The electrolyzes only runs for a short time, minutes at a time, dumping
it 500psi charge into a buffer tank. The compressor runs the longest pushing
it to 5000psi. So I guess run time is what's missing.

You can check at the link below for all the live data. (The sensors may not
be hooked up yet to the new unit, keep checking, it shouldn't be long)

http://www.hydrogen.unlv.edu/realtimedata.html

Please, lets keep this about range extenders for EVs and not about cost and
politics. Lets see what we can make happen in the next couple of years to
make our EVs more versatile. In the way of range extenders we have had
gasoline, diesel, biodiesel, CNG, and lead acid. Now if I can find someone
that works with all those experimental units that wants to sell a used
electrolyzes.




''Evan Tuer"
> Sorry, you said 13 kG, not litres! As Peter already said, that's
> worth about 30kWh per kG?
>
> That's a lot, clearly more than your PV array produces in a day. So I
> guess that's the output of your hydrogen plan, running flat out on
> grid power.
>
> So how much energy does it take?
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen? and EVs

Hi Gail,

This unit would fit right into your life style Gail. A solar powered
hydrogen refueling system with a fuel cell range extender bolted to your
back bumper. With your record of keeping those Comutacars on the road I have
no doubt that someday soon I will see you driving around town with a box
bolted to the rear bumper dripping water.

I have seen the city's Honda fuel cell car, they brought it to the opening
of our hydrogen refueling station. They are happy with there fuel cell
Honda, there is talk of us getting one, the boss is trying anyway.



"Gail Lucas"
> Hi Richard,
>
> How soon will you be able to put a fuel cell into one of my Comutacars and
> how much will it cost me? With all of the experience you have had working
> on my cars you must know exactly what modifications would be needed.
>
> Have you seen the fuel cell powered cars the city of Las Vegas leased? I
> heard that they were working well but have not had a chance to see one.
>
> Gail



Richard Furniss
is it suppose to smoke like that ?
No trees were harmed in the creation of this message. But billions of
electrons were terribly inconvenienced!









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Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen? and EVs

I was going to say that the numbers don't add up (using a 14kw array to
produce 13kg per day)
But it appears that the system is using a grid tie? So I'm guessing that
the bulk of the electrical energy needed by the system is coming from the
grid?

> Evan,
>
> You are correct what I should have said was that the present unit will
> produce 13kg in 24 hour, his is a gas not liquid, the gas is compressed to
> 5000 psi.
>
> The electrolyzes only runs for a short time, minutes at a time,
> dumping
> it 500psi charge into a buffer tank. The compressor runs the longest
> pushing
> it to 5000psi. So I guess run time is what's missing.
>
> You can check at the link below for all the live data. (The sensors may
> not
> be hooked up yet to the new unit, keep checking, it shouldn't be long)
>
> http://www.hydrogen.unlv.edu/realtimedata.html
>
> Please, lets keep this about range extenders for EVs and not about cost
> and
> politics. Lets see what we can make happen in the next couple of years to
> make our EVs more versatile. In the way of range extenders we have had
> gasoline, diesel, biodiesel, CNG, and lead acid. Now if I can find someone
> that works with all those experimental units that wants to sell a used
> electrolyzes.
>
>
>
>
> ''Evan Tuer"
>> Sorry, you said 13 kG, not litres! As Peter already said, that's
>> worth about 30kWh per kG?
>>
>> That's a lot, clearly more than your PV array produces in a day. So I
>> guess that's the output of your hydrogen plan, running flat out on
>> grid power.
>>
>> So how much energy does it take?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


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Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen? and EVs

Richard,

It seems you are unwilling to provide data on how much
energy the electrolysers and compressor eats to produce
the Hydrogen that runs the fuel cell, as with that data
it would be obvious what a silly system this is, wasting
so much good solar energy and needing so much grid power
in addition, while in a full-electric setup all those
losses would not be required.

I won't go into the cost of the fuel cell or the storage
of H2, I think those costs are what keep the nr of demo
cars on the road so limited - they will be forever just
that, a demo too expensive to run commercially.
Just do the math.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Richard Furniss
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 7:09 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen? and EVs

Evan,

You are correct what I should have said was that the present unit will produce 13kg in 24 hour, his is a gas not liquid, the gas is compressed to 5000 psi.

The electrolyzes only runs for a short time, minutes at a time, dumping it 500psi charge into a buffer tank. The compressor runs the longest pushing it to 5000psi. So I guess run time is what's missing.

You can check at the link below for all the live data. (The sensors may not be hooked up yet to the new unit, keep checking, it shouldn't be long)

http://www.hydrogen.unlv.edu/realtimedata.html

Please, lets keep this about range extenders for EVs and not about cost and politics. Lets see what we can make happen in the next couple of years to make our EVs more versatile. In the way of range extenders we have had gasoline, diesel, biodiesel, CNG, and lead acid. Now if I can find someone that works with all those experimental units that wants to sell a used electrolyzes.




''Evan Tuer"
> Sorry, you said 13 kG, not litres! As Peter already said, that's
> worth about 30kWh per kG?
>
> That's a lot, clearly more than your PV array produces in a day. So I
> guess that's the output of your hydrogen plan, running flat out on
> grid power.
>
> So how much energy does it take?
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen? and EVs

According to:
http://www.solartoday.org/2004/may_june04/h2_afford_it.htm

Using the best technology currently available, it requires at least 55kwh
to produce and compress 1kg of Hydrogen. Researchers hope to improve that
to 50kwh sometime in the future.

Since 1kg of H2 will (hopefully, someday) propell a vehicle about the same
distance as 1 gallon of gasoline, this indicates that the electrolysis of
H2 requires about 5-6 times as much energy as pure battery EVs.

I'm curious as to how much the H2 containment system and fuel cell will
weigh. It might turn out to be lighter to just use a LiPol battery
trailer to extend range. It would certainly be cheaper.

> Richard,
>
> It seems you are unwilling to provide data on how much
> energy the electrolysers and compressor eats to produce
> the Hydrogen that runs the fuel cell, as with that data
> it would be obvious what a silly system this is, wasting
> so much good solar energy and needing so much grid power
> in addition, while in a full-electric setup all those
> losses would not be required.
>
> I won't go into the cost of the fuel cell or the storage
> of H2, I think those costs are what keep the nr of demo
> cars on the road so limited - they will be forever just
> that, a demo too expensive to run commercially.
> Just do the math.
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Richard Furniss
> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 7:09 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen? and EVs
>
> Evan,
>
> You are correct what I should have said was that the present unit will
> produce 13kg in 24 hour, his is a gas not liquid, the gas is
> compressed to 5000 psi.
>
> The electrolyzes only runs for a short time, minutes at a time,
> dumping it 500psi charge into a buffer tank. The compressor runs the
> longest pushing it to 5000psi. So I guess run time is what's missing.
>
> You can check at the link below for all the live data. (The sensors may
> not be hooked up yet to the new unit, keep checking, it shouldn't be long)
>
> http://www.hydrogen.unlv.edu/realtimedata.html
>
> Please, lets keep this about range extenders for EVs and not about cost
> and politics. Lets see what we can make happen in the next couple of years
> to make our EVs more versatile. In the way of range extenders we have had
> gasoline, diesel, biodiesel, CNG, and lead acid. Now if I can find someone
> that works with all those experimental units that wants to sell a used
> electrolyzes.
>
>
>
>
> ''Evan Tuer"
>> Sorry, you said 13 kG, not litres! As Peter already said, that's
>> worth about 30kWh per kG?
>>
>> That's a lot, clearly more than your PV array produces in a day. So I
>> guess that's the output of your hydrogen plan, running flat out on
>> grid power.
>>
>> So how much energy does it take?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


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If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

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Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen? and EVs

"Cor van de Water"
> It seems you are unwilling to provide data on how much
> energy the electrolysers and compressor eats to produce
> the Hydrogen that runs the fuel cell, as with that data
> it would be obvious what a silly system this is, wasting
> so much good solar energy and needing so much grid power
> in addition, while in a full-electric setup all those
> losses would not be required.

Not so much unwilling as slow, I am a end user, I didn't design or build it
or understand it. I do talk to the people at UNLV from time to time and ask
questions, I will get you the numbers when I get a chance to talk to the
people that know. They are very open and up front with there info and
numbers it's just I don't like numbers. I'm a simple guy, teach me.

Here is what I have been told, at least this is what I think I heard.
1kg of H2 = 2.5 gallons of gasoline.

The old unit they just pulled out produced 2kg of H2 per day and the new
unit produces 13kg per day.

The solar panels produce 14kw per hour.

The electrolyzes use's 4/5 of the energy and the compressor use's 1/5 of the
energy.

The solar panel array was picked to match the need of the current refueling
station over the long run.

At the link I gave you, you will be able to see live data of the PV, power
in, power out, and H2. as soon as they hook it up again.

I promise to keep a open mind that this may turn out to be a fool cell, just
give me time. What I have been told (and believe) is that when the solar
panels aren't producing H2 it's pushing energy back to the grid and I can
pull my NEV up to the station and get green energy for the range extender. I
do see the fact that we could overwhelm the refueling station to where it
will need more power than the PV can produce.

Good questions for me to ask. Thanks Peter

Using the best technology currently available, it requires at least 55kwh
to produce and compress 1kg of Hydrogen. Researchers hope to improve that
to 50kwh sometime in the future.

Since 1kg of H2 will (hopefully, someday) propell a vehicle about the same
distance as 1 gallon of gasoline, this indicates that the electrolysis of
H2 requires about 5-6 times as much energy as pure battery EVs.

I'm curious as to how much the H2 containment system and fuel cell will
weigh. It might turn out to be lighter to just use a LiPol battery
trailer to extend range. It would certainly be cheaper.



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