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Discussion Starter #1
Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range

I've looked at several graphs of data, and the 100 mile range is just
pointless. The data is for the US, but we're one of the most
car-centric societies around. Here's how the logic breaks down:

* 50% of Americans who drive daily, drive less-than 25 miles a
day (80% drive 50 mpd or less!)

http://illinoisev.googlegroups.com/web/PersonalVehicleMilesDrivenDaily.j
pg

* Something like 75% of trips in vehicles are single-passenger
(ie, driver).
* The average vehicle in America seats 5 and weighs 2,000 or more
pounds.
2000 to deliver 200. Those are payload-to-delivery vehicle
numbers only a rocket
scientist could approve of!
(sorry, no pretty graph on these two -- anyone else got a graph
I could pretty up?)
* There are more Level 1 EV Charging stations installed out
there RIGHT NOW than
there are gas stations (or even Starbucks). A Level 1 charging
station is more
commonly known as a standard 3-prong electrical outlet
(120V/15A, preferably
GFCI and weather protected). They're about $2-3 at most
hardware stores.
(again, no graph -- this is just common knowledge)
* Vehicles have outnumbered licensed drivers to drive them in the
US for several decades.
This means most households own 2 or more vehicles. So when you
need the range or extra
people hauling capacity, drive your second or third car, the
energy guzzler/polluter.

So you look at the data, and you realize the need to go 100 miles at a
time is a made-up number: for 80% of the people it is unnecessary on an
everyday basis. These numbers are back in 1990, back before gas prices
spiked so it's highly likely the numbers are even more favorable. And
this easily gets us off foreign oil and drastically reduces our
environmental damage due to drilling/CO2 emissions, satisfying both the
right and the left, with the fun and the money savings of driving
electric satisfying the middle.

Further, the standard car is vastly oversized and TDB (too darn big, ie,
heavy). And that makes your battery pack TDB (too darn big) and
therefore TDE (too darn expensive) AND you can no longer charge on a
Level 1/three prong outlet in a reasonable amount of time, so you have
to charge at special charging stations. Then range anxiety sets in...
so you think you need a bigger pack. Which increases charging time,
adds more weight and the more weight you add, the further down the
spiral you go.

You establish Type 1 charging stations on every block, lot and parking
deck. There is very little infrastructure cost -- only thing in most
cities would require would be signage. This allows for opportunity
charging, more-than enough for a lightweighted, funstainably-sized EV
with a reasonable pack to easily charge from empty to full on 8 hours or
less (ie, a standard work day) on 120/15A circuit. But with opportunity
charging you would be topped off most of the time. And then you stop
worrying about 100 miles per charge (as shown above graph, it's
unnecessary, especially when combined with opportunity charging and
plenty of signage). You stop dragging around the vehicle weight to haul
4-5 people, but rather 1+1's or 2+2's (where the 'plus' is conceptually
like a rumble seat -- not comfy, but you can shove a kiddo back there
for short amounts of time -- 50 miles or so), otherwise it's
grocery/hardware hauling space. Obviously opportunity charging requires
battery chemistries that prefer to be full most of the time, not charged
fully, then drained completely.

And compared to city busses, SUV's and standard cars, lightweight
vehicles do almost no road damage, so you take those arguing about how
to apply road tax to electricity/electric vehicles and you tell 'em to
stick a plug in it.

But wait! American's want bigger, heavier! Ever seen the Mazda Miata?
They'll buy sexy, tiny. But not ugly econobox with no frills. Ford
found that out with their first world car, the Focus which they stripped
off the luxury items for the US market, and fixed it with the Fiesta, a
fully loaded small car.

These ideas are not new, they're just all glommed together, and once you
see 'em all together, hopefully a nice renewably fueled LED lightbulb
goes off... less IS more... REDUCE, reuse, recycle. There's a reason
why reduce comes first, and when it's applied to EV's, magic happens.

[email protected]
www.illinois.edu/goto/twike

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Willie McKemie
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 9:57 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] leaf

On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 09:18:03AM -0400, Electric Blue auto convertions
wrote:
> I.v heard from a very good source that the leaf is not cracked up to
be what its advertised to be,, 100 mile range?? sure, at 22 MPH and no
wind, and on a table flat road. at 50 MPH its drops off like falling off
a cliff ...So hear we go again, more teasing more .."its almost good"
and" by it and if you cant get 100 mile range your not driving it
right". The person that told me this ,asked for his deposit back after
asking then demanding many times on performance data on the car, Nissan
didnt want to give it to him, but did in the end . More of the "screw
you , we'll build what we want. and deliver any piece of shit we can"
attitude. BUT I was expecting this from them.. just another day at
manufacturing land

I'm in line for a Leaf. My middle name is either "Disaster" or
"Disappointment"; my birth certificate is smudged.

80-100 miles does seem optimistic for, what?, a 27 kwh pack. My 37kwh
pack gives me 100-120 miles; maybe 150 miles with very slow and careful
driving. I hoping the Leaf gets down around 200 wh/m while my Hyundai
gets 250-300.

What I'm looking for in the Leaf is reliability. And a network of
repair facilities. Maybe later, pack extensions.

http://evalbum.com/2314

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 11 days 5 hours 52 minutes

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Discussion Starter #2
Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range

Matthew wrote:

> So you look at the data, and you realize the need to go 100 miles at a
> time is a made-up number: for 80% of the people it is unnecessary on an
> everyday basis.

Sure! We know this. But most vehicle owners and buyers >think< they need
range of 150 or 200 miles. You can even have them add up the number of
miles they drove last year and divide it by 365. They'll still say they
need 150 or 200 (or more) miles of range because they need to go that for
now and then.

Most people don't need to carry a half-ton of cargo or 7 passengers very
often either; most vehicles on the road are carrying only one person and a
few small items nearly all the time. However, with some encouragement from
advertising, millions of vehicle buyers spend substantial amounts of money
on purchasing and operating large vehicles so they can carry that much cargo
or passengers once or twice a year (if that often).

I'm not saying we shouldn't publicize these figures. A few people will say,
"Hey, that makes sense," and for them moderate-range EVs will suddenly
become an option. But for the rest, there's no percentage in arguing. If
they think they need 200 miles of range and room for 7 passengers, you're
not going to change their minds.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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Discussion Starter #3
Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range

>
> If they think they need 200 miles of range and room for 7 passengers,
> you're
> not going to change their minds.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
>
They're not going to care or understand before gas reaches $4-5 / gallon.
Only afterwards
Depressing reality. People who care and get it are few and far between.
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Discussion Starter #4
Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range

I like windmills -- I tilt at them often ;-)

They're not as few and far between as you might imagine.

Go to any local university with a fun, cool-looking EV that parks and
charges for free (while car parking is upwards of $500 a year or more)
and see how many young people get it... and they've yet to buy their
first car... then tell them that they can build their own EV for under
$1000 and it requires neither a license, nor insurance and goes wherever
a bicycle goes and cuts through congestion and parks wherever a bicycle
does for free. It's called an eBike. Once they start paying for gas
themselves just to get around town on their limited budget, they DO get
it. Once you get them on an eBike, it's hard to get the smile off their
face!

I came to realize very quickly that you've got to be picky about where
you spend your effort, and attempting to convince people with closed
minds isn't worth the effort. So I go to where they're open already --
schools. With young people in them. Who see a weird vehicle and think
"cool!" not "weird". I've had frat boys, sorority girls, construction
workers and rap-star wannabes all give me thumbs up and shout-outs while
twiking around town.

Sometimes the generation gap is a GOOD thing. And they can retrain
their parents when they start bitching about the price of gas -- I don't
have to change their mind.

The secret ingredient for the early adopter market is you don't want
your EV to look like a normal car.

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Dave Hymers
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 2:01 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range

>
> If they think they need 200 miles of range and room for 7 passengers,
> you're
> not going to change their minds.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
>
They're not going to care or understand before gas reaches $4-5 /
gallon.
Only afterwards
Depressing reality. People who care and get it are few and far between.
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Discussion Starter #5
Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range

Childress, Matthew wrote:
> * There are more Level 1 EV Charging stations installed out
> there RIGHT NOW than
> there are gas stations (or even Starbucks). A Level 1 charging
> station is more
> commonly known as a standard 3-prong electrical outlet
> (120V/15A, preferably
> GFCI and weather protected). They're about $2-3 at most
> hardware stores.
> (again, no graph -- this is just common knowledge)

They might be common but they aren't necessarily publically accessible,
available for use or well maintained. And it costs far more than $3 to
have a new one installed, especially where it's convenient for an EV.
And don't forget that not everyone lives in a single family house with a
garage. Many people live in condo complexes and apartment buildings.
There might be an outlet or two but cost becomes an issue when five or
ten occupants have EVs. People who live in cold country may be at an
advantage because many places have installed outlets for block heaters.

> * Vehicles have outnumbered licensed drivers to drive them in the
> US for several decades.
> This means most households own 2 or more vehicles. So when you
> need the range or extra
> people hauling capacity, drive your second or third car, the
> energy guzzler/polluter.

The fact is correct but the conclusion is arguable. Vehicles have
outnumbered drivers since 1972. According to the DOT there were roughly
248 million vehicles and 208 million drivers in 2008. But the vehicle
number includes corporate fleets and government vehicles. Even without
that, there's only enough "extra" vehicles for 20% of drivers to have a
second car. That said, many households do have 2 or more vehicles but
they also have 2 or more drivers. The problem is your argument consigns
the second driver to always driving a gas guzzler even though both
drivers may commute the same distance.

> So you look at the data, and you realize the need to go 100 miles at a
> time is a made-up number: for 80% of the people it is unnecessary on an
> everyday basis.

I generally agree with that but in order to sell an EV you have to
convince the buyer that they won't get stuck somewhere. I think the 100
mile number is sort of a mental threshold for many people. I will say
that I used to think the same thing until a single line in "Who killed
the electric car" was an epiphany. And that was that every day when you
get up your "tank" will be full. I sometimes ask people how large their
gas tank would have to be if elves came to their house and filled it
every night. The answer is generally not very large.

I wanted to answer the range question for myself so for a month I
meticulously recorded all my mileage. Most days I drive between 16 miles
(straight to work and back) and 25 miles (stop at a store or
restaurant). 5 days in the month I drove between 25 and 40 miles. Twice
I drove move than 40 miles--ironically one was to an EAA meeting at Bob
Rice's house. The other was 138 miles to the airport and back. So for
me, 40 miles useful range would handle 80%+ of my driving. But we can't
take lightly what I have to do the other 20% of the time.

My parents and two brothers live in rural Maine. It's 18 miles to the
nearest grocery store. They routinely drive more than 60 miles in a day.
For them, I doubt that an EV would make sense unless it could reliably
give them 100 miles.

> You establish Type 1 charging stations on every block, lot and parking
> deck. There is very little infrastructure cost -- only thing in most
> cities would require would be signage.

I think you grossly overestimate the number of outlets already installed
in those places. And if they're not installed, trenching and conduits
and wiring are not cheap. I've looked around my city and there are no
outlets in most parking areas. We do have two garages (both run by
Propark) which installed 'EV charging stations' and they're available
for free (kudos to them). The first one they installed was just two 110V
15amp circuits and a couple signs. Actually it was one 15 amp circuit
until our EAA guys showed up for the opening ceremony and kept tripping
the breaker. But they fixed that. The second one just opened and it
supposedly has a "real" charging station suitable for a Volt or Leaf
(their words). I think that's fabulous but it's nowhere near enough if
lots of people start buying EVs.

But I also think that like the 'need' for 100+ mile range, the need for
public charging stations is also overblown. It's just another way of
easing range anxiety. If I had a car that could realistically go 100
miles on a charge, all but one of my trips that month would have been
satisfied with no external charging. If there was a charge outlet at the
airport I could have done that trip in the car but I was only there to
drop someone off. I wouldn't want to drive there and then have to plug
in for four hours to have enough juice to get home. And if I could have
a car with 150 mile range I would be amenable to renting a car for the
3-4 times a year I need more range. I'm not amenable to renting one
every month to go more than 100 miles.

--Rick


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Discussion Starter #6
Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range

Besides the Smart car, what current production car only weighs around
2,000 lbs?
Even the new minis weigh over 2,700 lbs.

Totally agree with you about the silliness of using 1.5 to 3 tons of
vehicle to move 200 lbs of payload.
Unfortunately with all the "safety" laws, it's hard to make a lightweight
vehicle.

> * The average vehicle in America seats 5 and weighs 2,000 or more
> pounds. 2000 to deliver 200. Those are payload-to-delivery vehicle
> numbers only a rocket scientist could approve of!

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Discussion Starter #7
Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range

On 23 Sep 2010 at 16:58, [email protected] wrote:

> Unfortunately with all the "safety" laws, it's hard to make a lightweight
> vehicle.

Margaret's '07 Honda Fit is a good example. It's just slightly larger than
my 1976 VW Rabbit was, but weighs a portly 700lb more. (I think the Fit
would make a pretty good conversion anyway, but for some reason she hasn't
yet agreed to let me do it.)

Some of the weight gain is no doubt the result of safety legislation, but
especially in recent years, a lot of it is customer demand.

No longer is NHTSA stipulation the only impetus behind vehicle safety. It
seems as if it's become almost a competitive requirement for cars to
surround every passenger with a protective cocoon of air bags - above,
below, to the left and right, in front of, and behind. (I'm only
exaggerating a little.) Buyers actually pay attention to (and manufacturers
advertise) five-star driver and passenger protection scores. We've come a
long way from the 1950s and "safety doesn't sell."

ABS, stability control, and other similar features add some weight too,
though I don't know how much.

Regrettably some of these safety features rely on the vehicle body computer,
and from what I understand, many of them have fits if the ICE isn't running.
When you convert such a car you either find a way to simulate the ICE for
that computer's sake, or at least some of those safety features (I realize
that some don't consider them desirable) just become dead weight.

Another contributor to the blimping-out of small cars we might convert is
the heavy accessorizing that buyers now demand. In 1975 you could sell a
small car with manual brakes and steering, roll-up windows, manual door
locks, and no air-con. I can remember when radios were optional and at one
time even heaters were extra cost items! I haven't seen such a car on offer
in years. Everything is tricked out with convenience and appearance
gimmicks. Even the NMG has electric windows.

Power accessories not only add weight in themselves, but they require more
expense, weight, and space for power steering drive motors and brake vacuum
pumps when converting them.

All that said, I suspect that much of the extra dead weight in modern cars
comes from large amounts of sound deadening and acoustic isolating material.
The good news is that when you convert such a car to electric drive, quite a
lot of this muffling weight can be removed - just about all of it, if you
don't mind a bit of extra road noise.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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Discussion Starter #8
Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range

This makes me want to point out that there are probably no production cars
that one can buy in the USA that are as light as 2000 pounds. Most cars
weigh a good deal more ( pickups and SUVs are in the 5000 to 8000 pound
range ).

EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 23 Sep 2010 at 16:58, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > Unfortunately with all the "safety" laws, it's hard to make a lightweight
> > vehicle.
>
> Margaret's '07 Honda Fit is a good example. It's just slightly larger than
> my 1976 VW Rabbit was, but weighs a portly 700lb more. (I think the Fit
> would make a pretty good conversion anyway, but for some reason she hasn't
> yet agreed to let me do it.)
>
> Some of the weight gain is no doubt the result of safety legislation, but
> especially in recent years, a lot of it is customer demand.
>
> No longer is NHTSA stipulation the only impetus behind vehicle safety. It
> seems as if it's become almost a competitive requirement for cars to
> surround every passenger with a protective cocoon of air bags - above,
> below, to the left and right, in front of, and behind. (I'm only
> exaggerating a little.) Buyers actually pay attention to (and
> manufacturers
> advertise) five-star driver and passenger protection scores. We've come a
> long way from the 1950s and "safety doesn't sell."
>
> ABS, stability control, and other similar features add some weight too,
> though I don't know how much.
>
> Regrettably some of these safety features rely on the vehicle body
> computer,
> and from what I understand, many of them have fits if the ICE isn't
> running.
> When you convert such a car you either find a way to simulate the ICE for
> that computer's sake, or at least some of those safety features (I realize
> that some don't consider them desirable) just become dead weight.
>
> Another contributor to the blimping-out of small cars we might convert is
> the heavy accessorizing that buyers now demand. In 1975 you could sell a
> small car with manual brakes and steering, roll-up windows, manual door
> locks, and no air-con. I can remember when radios were optional and at one
> time even heaters were extra cost items! I haven't seen such a car on
> offer
> in years. Everything is tricked out with convenience and appearance
> gimmicks. Even the NMG has electric windows.
>
> Power accessories not only add weight in themselves, but they require more
> expense, weight, and space for power steering drive motors and brake vacuum
> pumps when converting them.
>
> All that said, I suspect that much of the extra dead weight in modern cars
> comes from large amounts of sound deadening and acoustic isolating
> material.
> The good news is that when you convert such a car to electric drive, quite
> a
> lot of this muffling weight can be removed - just about all of it, if you
> don't mind a bit of extra road noise.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
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Discussion Starter #9
Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range

Not everything power is bad.
Power windows typically are lighter than hand-crancked ones for the
crank and mechanism is replaced by a small button, small electric motor
with gear and a steel wire in shaft which weigh less and use
not as much space as the hand-crank.
That was the reason that even some dedicated-designed EVs where ONLY
efficiency and thus weight were considered, still used power windows.

The only way to make windows lighter is to give them a pivot or hinge so
you can open them without need to lower them into the door. I have not
seen those features on any modern car either.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of EVDL Administrator
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 5:26 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range

On 23 Sep 2010 at 16:58, [email protected] wrote:

> Unfortunately with all the "safety" laws, it's hard to make a
> lightweight vehicle.

Margaret's '07 Honda Fit is a good example. It's just slightly larger
than my 1976 VW Rabbit was, but weighs a portly 700lb more. (I think
the Fit would make a pretty good conversion anyway, but for some reason
she hasn't yet agreed to let me do it.)

Some of the weight gain is no doubt the result of safety legislation,
but especially in recent years, a lot of it is customer demand.

No longer is NHTSA stipulation the only impetus behind vehicle safety.
It seems as if it's become almost a competitive requirement for cars to
surround every passenger with a protective cocoon of air bags - above,
below, to the left and right, in front of, and behind. (I'm only
exaggerating a little.) Buyers actually pay attention to (and
manufacturers
advertise) five-star driver and passenger protection scores. We've come
a long way from the 1950s and "safety doesn't sell."

ABS, stability control, and other similar features add some weight too,
though I don't know how much.

Regrettably some of these safety features rely on the vehicle body
computer, and from what I understand, many of them have fits if the ICE
isn't running.
When you convert such a car you either find a way to simulate the ICE
for that computer's sake, or at least some of those safety features (I
realize that some don't consider them desirable) just become dead
weight.

Another contributor to the blimping-out of small cars we might convert
is the heavy accessorizing that buyers now demand. In 1975 you could
sell a small car with manual brakes and steering, roll-up windows,
manual door locks, and no air-con. I can remember when radios were
optional and at one time even heaters were extra cost items! I haven't
seen such a car on offer in years. Everything is tricked out with
convenience and appearance gimmicks. Even the NMG has electric windows.


Power accessories not only add weight in themselves, but they require
more expense, weight, and space for power steering drive motors and
brake vacuum pumps when converting them.

All that said, I suspect that much of the extra dead weight in modern
cars comes from large amounts of sound deadening and acoustic isolating
material.
The good news is that when you convert such a car to electric drive,
quite a lot of this muffling weight can be removed - just about all of
it, if you don't mind a bit of extra road noise.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Discussion Starter #10
Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range

My force uses about 1ah a mile at 45mph stop and go. I have 48 life cells at
100ah so thats only 16KW (if I go to 100 DOD) and should do 100MI. Most I
have done is 68 miles with mostly highway 55mph speeds and I used 66Ah I
drive in normal mode not range extender mode. That car is 13 years old
(older tech but it is an AC motor) now but with new batteries. But, its
2000lbs I wasnt using ac/heat only the radio and two passengers. I dont have
power stearing etc as well and michigan is very flat. But, I can see 27kw
doing 100miles at 45 for a larger car with more electronics. Lets say 21.6kw
to 80% thats about 215wh per mile. Thats about 40% more than the force I see
it working fine (100 miles) unless they limit to 50% soc or something. I
have never gone past 70% dod on the pack and my commute is 55 miles round
trip to work. Range just isnt an issue for me. Parts heh thats another
matter.
kevin
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View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/leaf-tp2552025p2553414.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Discussion Starter #11
Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range

Childress, Matthew wrote:
>> * There are more Level 1 EV Charging stations installed out there
>> RIGHT NOW than there are gas stations (or even Starbucks). A Level
>> 1 charging station is more commonly known as a standard 3-prong
>> electrical outlet (120V/15A...

Rick Beebe wrote:
> They might be common but they aren't necessarily publically
> accessible,

Where do you live? Here in Minnesota, or any other northern state, these
outdoor outlets are everywhere, and have been for decades. They are
intended for plugging in block heaters to keep your ICE warm during
subzero temperatures so it will start. Most homes, apartments, and
businesses have them. They are conveniently located, and free for use.

For at least 10 years, the NEC (National Electric Code) has required
outdoor GFCI protected outlets in all new construction. In states
without winter, they are still useful for electric lawnmowers, Christmas
lights, etc.

> in order to sell an EV you have to convince the buyer that they
> won't get stuck somewhere.

An EV doesn't suddenly stop like an ICE that runs out of gas. Instead,
it keeps getting slower and slower, giving you plenty of warning to find
a place to recharge. It can be inconvenient, but not nearly as
inconvenient as running out of gas!


> I will say that I used to think the same thing until a single line in
> "Who killed the electric car" was an epiphany... Every day when you
> get up, your "tank" will be full. I sometimes ask people how large
> their gas tank would have to be if elves came to their house and
> filled it every night. The answer is generally not very large.

Good point. I do it by asking them how often their cellphone or laptop
computer needs to run on batteries, and how often they recharge them.
The answer is usually "a couple hours of operating time is enough" and
"I charge it every day". Well, an EV is the same!

> I think you grossly overestimate the number of outlets already
> installed in those places.

Where I live, I'd be hard pressed to find a building that does *not*
have outdoor outlets or outlets in the garage. I don't know how to
estimate the number, but it has to be in the millions.

> And if they're not installed, trenching
> and conduits and wiring are not cheap.

True; but nothing is cheap any more. The key point is that it's not a
back-breaking expense, and is a whale of a lot cheaper than a special EV
charging station with special boxes and outlets.

> it's nowhere near enough if lots of people start buying EVs.

The number of charging outlets is automatically going to change to suit
the number of EVs. As more EVs go on the road, more charging outlets
will be installed. You can't expect someone to install millions of
charging stations if there are only a few thousand EVs to use them.

All you really need is *one* charging station, somewhere near where you
park your car. Adding more is nice; but not mandatory.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Discussion Starter #12
Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range

Childress, Matthew wrote:
> I came to realize very quickly that you've got to be picky about where
> you spend your effort, and attempting to convince people with closed
> minds isn't worth the effort. So I go to where they're open already --
> schools. With young people in them. Who see a weird vehicle and think
> "cool!" not "weird". I've had frat boys, sorority girls, construction
> workers and rap-star wannabes all give me thumbs up and shout-outs while
> twiking around town.

Well said, Matthew. This agrees exactly with my experience.

I've been building and driving EVs since the 1970's. I started off as an
EV evangelist, but rapidly learned that's not the way. Most people don't
*want* to change; they want ways to justify their present behaviors, and
let them keep doing things the same way they always have. They will
*shout down* anyone who tries to educate or enlighten them.

Instead of me convincing them, they tried to convince me that I was
wasting my time, and I should be driving gas hogs just like them. And
there were a lot more of them than me! So I gave up. I don't have the
ego and thick skin needed to withstand that kind of aggressive criticism.

> Sometimes the generation gap is a GOOD thing.

But the kids; ah, there's the solution! They don't have the closed minds
that won't consider alternative answers, and aren't already invested in
the status quo. They can change their mind!

So, I spend as much time as I can in schools, showing the kids how to
build EVs. See www.bestoutreach.com for examples.

> The secret ingredient for the early adopter market is you don't want
> your EV to look like a normal car.

That may well be the truth. If someone is dissatisfied with normal cars,
and looking for something different (like an EV), they they will look
favorably on a car that is different.

But... not too different. Human nature is funny that way. Make a few
select changes, and it's cool. Make too many changes, and it's a monster!

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Discussion Starter #13
Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range

Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:

> It's hard to
> imagine a simpler and lighter system.

The Citroen 2CV had a two-pane window, hinged horizontally. You could fold down the top pane, or fold up the bottom pane. It was common to see drivers with their elbows protruding from the open bottom pane.

Hinge vs. slide track? I'd probably pick the hinge.

--
Doug Weathers
http://www.gdunge.com
Dedicated to the creation of a spacefaring civilization

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Discussion Starter #14
Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range

> What current production car weighs around 2,000 lbs?

Dunno, giving them the benefit of the doubt maybe? I don't do cars ;-)
A Mazada Miata is a little over 2,000 pounds (2,174) but it's a
two-seater. So I guess it would be better to say 1.5 - 4 tons. Wow.
Thanks for the "fact" check.

> Unfortunately with all the "safety" laws, it's hard to make a
lightweight vehicle.

Not at all. You just gotta get your brain out of the 4-wheel steel box!

Drop to three wheels, and you're legally a motorcycle (in some states
such as Maine, an autocycle). Doesn't mean it has to look anything like
a trike motorcycle though, and all that required safety equipment and
crash testing goes away. It's legal and yet it doesn't mean that it's
not safe: safest motorcycle on the road if it has seat belts ;-) And
nothing happens if you lose your balance. If you're among the 50%
driving 25 miles a day or less, it's much more likely to be 35, not 65
mph.

There's some really interesting cutting edge work being done
electrifying recumbent trikes
http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/shumaker/e-typhoon/default.htm These
things are bicycles in name only, in fact I'm pretty sure that they
break most eBike laws (they go over 20mph. Waaaaaay over).

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 5:59 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range

Besides the Smart car, what current production car only weighs around
2,000 lbs?
Even the new minis weigh over 2,700 lbs.

Totally agree with you about the silliness of using 1.5 to 3 tons of
vehicle to move 200 lbs of payload.
Unfortunately with all the "safety" laws, it's hard to make a
lightweight
vehicle.

> * The average vehicle in America seats 5 and weighs 2,000 or
more
> pounds. 2000 to deliver 200. Those are payload-to-delivery vehicle
> numbers only a rocket scientist could approve of!

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Discussion Starter #15
Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range

Lee Hart wrote:
> Childress, Matthew wrote:
>>> * There are more Level 1 EV Charging stations installed out there
>>> RIGHT NOW than there are gas stations (or even Starbucks). A Level
>>> 1 charging station is more commonly known as a standard 3-prong
>>> electrical outlet (120V/15A...
>
> Rick Beebe wrote:
>> They might be common but they aren't necessarily publically
>> accessible,
>
> Where do you live? Here in Minnesota, or any other northern state, these
> outdoor outlets are everywhere, and have been for decades. They are
> intended for plugging in block heaters to keep your ICE warm during
> subzero temperatures so it will start. Most homes, apartments, and
> businesses have them. They are conveniently located, and free for use.

I'm from Maine and there were some, but not what I would call a
ubiquitous public charging infrastructure. Now I live in Connecticut and
there are even fewer.

> For at least 10 years, the NEC (National Electric Code) has required
> outdoor GFCI protected outlets in all new construction. In states
> without winter, they are still useful for electric lawnmowers, Christmas
> lights, etc.

Yes, I have one on my house. With an 50' cord it'll reach the driveway.
No, you can't use it. My previous abode was a condo. There was one per
4-unit building, also not particularly convenient to the driveway. There
have been 'horror' stories posted here in the past about the difficulty
that some people have had getting permission to use them or to have new
ones put in.

Note that I'm not arguing against this--there _are_ billions of "level 1
charging stations" out there. I am saying that some of the arguments
that we EV proponents use to convince others that EVs should be "easy"
don't necessarily hold up everywhere. Or for a bit of hyperbole, it's
ludicrous for anyone in this country to complain about drought as we
have trillions and trillions of gallons of water in lakes from coast to
coast.

>> in order to sell an EV you have to convince the buyer that they
>> won't get stuck somewhere.
>
> An EV doesn't suddenly stop like an ICE that runs out of gas. Instead,
> it keeps getting slower and slower, giving you plenty of warning to find
> a place to recharge. It can be inconvenient, but not nearly as
> inconvenient as running out of gas!

Sorry. That argument works fine for us pioneers. It doesn't hold a bit
of water with, say, my mother who is NOT going to knock on someone's
door asking to plug her car in. And the slower-and-slower behavior is
much less obvious with lithium powered cars where the power will stay
fairly steady until near the end.

Before the unwashed masses will buy EVs they have to be convinced that
the car either has enough range to satisfy their worst-case local travel
day OR that there are _visible_, easy-to-use, public charging stations
along the way. We know that most people, once they take the plunge (or
their neighbors do) will realize that their range fears were unfounded.
But until then, those fears are a real impediment to EV sales. And
saying that the 7-11 on Main Street has an outlet behind the Coke
machine isn't going to assuage them.

>> And if they're not installed, trenching
>> and conduits and wiring are not cheap.
>
> True; but nothing is cheap any more. The key point is that it's not a
> back-breaking expense, and is a whale of a lot cheaper than a special EV
> charging station with special boxes and outlets.

I was responding to Matthew's statment that they cost $3 (and the
implication that it's a no-brainer to add more as needed).

>> it's nowhere near enough if lots of people start buying EVs.
>
> The number of charging outlets is automatically going to change to suit
> the number of EVs. As more EVs go on the road, more charging outlets
> will be installed. You can't expect someone to install millions of
> charging stations if there are only a few thousand EVs to use them.

Of course. And I'm all for a campaign for people to spend $10 for an "EV
Charging Station" sign for every accessible outdoor outlet they have.
That's a cheap start. The two reasons for special charging station are
1) someone can make money selling them and b) a business hosting them
might still be able to afford their liability insurance if they're safer
than a regular plug.

> All you really need is *one* charging station, somewhere near where you
> park your car. Adding more is nice; but not mandatory.

There are a bunch of parking structures associated with my place of
employment but only 2 charging stations. Both are occupied most days.
Sucks to be #3.

--Rick

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Discussion Starter #16
Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range

On 24 Sep 2010 at 10:39, David Dymaxion wrote:

> Another way to save that [window regulator] weight is to use a strap to
> put the window up, or if you gut the doors just reach in to move it.

I remember seeing a mid-1960s piece in one of the pop magazines - Popular
Science, Mechanix Illustrated, or some such - about a proposal to use
polycarbonate or other light plastics for auto windows. The article
suggested that the automakers could do away with complex, troublesome crank
and motorized linkages, and just use a simple vertical slider in the middle
of the door. I guess nobody from the Detroit design teams was reading that
magazine!

I thought of this again when I read that the original Solectria Sunrise used
polycarbonate for most of its windows. I've never seen a Sunrise up close,
though, so I don't know what kind of window regulators they used.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Discussion Starter #17
Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range

Hi,
Heck I have seen numbers estimating the numbers of class I charging
outlets as high as 9,000 per gas station, But that includes ones inside
houses so I only include it to get your attention. Here in Florida, my 15
year old home has 3 outside outlets... (For X-mas lights?)
The house I built in 1985 had 10 outside outlets, all 20 A 120 V. AC, all
GFCI protected on separate circuits. I really like the SPA disconnect with
GFCI and rain repellent box I displayed on this list for $125 last month.
And I am putting 16 of them into my school shop.

Rick Beebe <[email protected]> wrote:

> Lee Hart wrote:
> > Childress, Matthew wrote:
> >>> * There are more Level 1 EV Charging stations installed out there
> >>> RIGHT NOW than there are gas stations (or even Starbucks). A Level
> >>> 1 charging station is more commonly known as a standard 3-prong
> >>> electrical outlet (120V/15A...
> >
> > Rick Beebe wrote:
> >> They might be common but they aren't necessarily publically
> >> accessible,
> >
> > Where do you live? Here in Minnesota, or any other northern state, these
> > outdoor outlets are everywhere, and have been for decades. They are
> > intended for plugging in block heaters to keep your ICE warm during
> > subzero temperatures so it will start. Most homes, apartments, and
> > businesses have them. They are conveniently located, and free for use.
>
> I'm from Maine and there were some, but not what I would call a
> ubiquitous public charging infrastructure. Now I live in Connecticut and
> there are even fewer.
>
> > For at least 10 years, the NEC (National Electric Code) has required
> > outdoor GFCI protected outlets in all new construction. In states
> > without winter, they are still useful for electric lawnmowers, Christmas
> > lights, etc.
>
> Yes, I have one on my house. With an 50' cord it'll reach the driveway.
> No, you can't use it. My previous abode was a condo. There was one per
> 4-unit building, also not particularly convenient to the driveway. There
> have been 'horror' stories posted here in the past about the difficulty
> that some people have had getting permission to use them or to have new
> ones put in.
>
> Note that I'm not arguing against this--there _are_ billions of "level 1
> charging stations" out there. I am saying that some of the arguments
> that we EV proponents use to convince others that EVs should be "easy"
> don't necessarily hold up everywhere. Or for a bit of hyperbole, it's
> ludicrous for anyone in this country to complain about drought as we
> have trillions and trillions of gallons of water in lakes from coast to
> coast.
>
> >> in order to sell an EV you have to convince the buyer that they
> >> won't get stuck somewhere.
> >
> > An EV doesn't suddenly stop like an ICE that runs out of gas. Instead,
> > it keeps getting slower and slower, giving you plenty of warning to find
> > a place to recharge. It can be inconvenient, but not nearly as
> > inconvenient as running out of gas!
>
> Sorry. That argument works fine for us pioneers. It doesn't hold a bit
> of water with, say, my mother who is NOT going to knock on someone's
> door asking to plug her car in. And the slower-and-slower behavior is
> much less obvious with lithium powered cars where the power will stay
> fairly steady until near the end.
>
> Before the unwashed masses will buy EVs they have to be convinced that
> the car either has enough range to satisfy their worst-case local travel
> day OR that there are _visible_, easy-to-use, public charging stations
> along the way. We know that most people, once they take the plunge (or
> their neighbors do) will realize that their range fears were unfounded.
> But until then, those fears are a real impediment to EV sales. And
> saying that the 7-11 on Main Street has an outlet behind the Coke
> machine isn't going to assuage them.
>
> >> And if they're not installed, trenching
> >> and conduits and wiring are not cheap.
> >
> > True; but nothing is cheap any more. The key point is that it's not a
> > back-breaking expense, and is a whale of a lot cheaper than a special EV
> > charging station with special boxes and outlets.
>
> I was responding to Matthew's statment that they cost $3 (and the
> implication that it's a no-brainer to add more as needed).
>
> >> it's nowhere near enough if lots of people start buying EVs.
> >
> > The number of charging outlets is automatically going to change to suit
> > the number of EVs. As more EVs go on the road, more charging outlets
> > will be installed. You can't expect someone to install millions of
> > charging stations if there are only a few thousand EVs to use them.
>
> Of course. And I'm all for a campaign for people to spend $10 for an "EV
> Charging Station" sign for every accessible outdoor outlet they have.
> That's a cheap start. The two reasons for special charging station are
> 1) someone can make money selling them and b) a business hosting them
> might still be able to afford their liability insurance if they're safer
> than a regular plug.
>
> > All you really need is *one* charging station, somewhere near where you
> > park your car. Adding more is nice; but not mandatory.
>
> There are a bunch of parking structures associated with my place of
> employment but only 2 charging stations. Both are occupied most days.
> Sucks to be #3.
>
> --Rick
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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>



-- =

Regards,
Dennis Lee Miles (Director) E.V.T.I. inc.
www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM (Adviser) EVTI-EVA Education Chapter
Phone (863) 944 - 9913
It=92s estimated that the existing U.S. electrical grid has sufficient
capacity to fully fuel three-quarters of the nation=92s 217 million passeng=
er
vehicles.
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Discussion Starter #18
Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range

> But... not too different. Human nature is funny that way. Make a few
> select changes, and it's cool. Make too many changes, and it's a
monster!

Heh, a well-heeded warning. One should always keep Bjork's swan outfit
and Lady Gaga's meat dress in the back of one's mind when designing
different.

[email protected]

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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range

Right you are, Lee,
My big plastic complaint lately has been the frosted "LEXAN" used for
headlamp lenses. I personally wish I could find a simple housing for the
larger (6001?) Sealed Beam all Glass headlamps, they stayed clear. What I
find on glider candidates now are so frosted that it I have to pay to
re-polish every one on any vehicle over 6 years old. an extra $50 I would
prefer a permanent solution.
Oh I use hot water to de-ice my windows, but over the years two cracked if
the water was hotter than 70 d. F.
Regards,
Dennis Lee Miles (Director) E.V.T.I. inc.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM* (Adviser) *EVTI-EVA Education Chapter*
Phone (863) 944 - 9913
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----------------------------------------
Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 9/24/2010 2:01 PM, EVDL Administrator wrote:
> > I remember seeing a mid-1960s piece in one of the pop magazines - Popul=
ar
> > Science, Mechanix Illustrated, or some such - about a proposal to use
> > polycarbonate or other light plastics for auto windows.
>
> Plastics are fine when perfect and new, but they scratch easily. Mere in
> Minnesota, we get ice and snow on the windows, and you need to use a
> scraper to get it off so you can see to drive. I would hate to have a
> car with plastic windows!
> --
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
> _______________________________________________
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--
It=92s estimated that the existing U.S. electrical grid has sufficient
capacity to fully fuel three-quarters of the nation=92s 217 million passeng=
er
vehicles.
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Discussion Starter #20
Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range

Outlets on the outsides of buildings? Here in the Bay Area, my
experience being Marin County in particular, there are virtually no
outlets. You may well find one here and there, but in general, forget
it. They aren't usually readily accessible, those that are there.
Let's see, Safeway in Corte Madera - they have one or two 120V outlets
on the front of the building, across the walk from the front parking
spaces. So at minimum, to run a cord across that heavily-used walkway,
you'd have to tape the cord down with a cord protector, assuming you
ever got permission (LOL there). Here at the apt. complex, my building
has no outlets on the outside, nothing, nada (I had to pay for the
installation of my outlet in the ceiling of my carport under the
building). I've had contractors looking for a source of electricity two
or three times plug into my ceiling outlet when the lockbox has been
open with the cord for the EV plugged in. They never asked. I've moved
them up to my deck outlet on the one or two occasions they needed to use
electricity. Over in the security bldg, there are some 120V outlets in
the carports under the building - I've never seen them used, although
they are live as far as I know (I plugged in my 12V charger to start my
mother's dead Saturn starter battery one time).

Chuck

Dennis Miles wrote:
> Hi,
> Heck I have seen numbers estimating the numbers of class I charging
> outlets as high as 9,000 per gas station, But that includes ones inside
> houses so I only include it to get your attention. Here in Florida, my 15
> year old home has 3 outside outlets... (For X-mas lights?)
> The house I built in 1985 had 10 outside outlets, all 20 A 120 V. AC, all
> GFCI protected on separate circuits. I really like the SPA disconnect with
> GFCI and rain repellent box I displayed on this list for $125 last month.
> And I am putting 16 of them into my school shop.
>
>
Rick Beebe <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Lee Hart wrote:
>>> Childress, Matthew wrote:
>>>>> * There are more Level 1 EV Charging stations installed out there
>>>>> RIGHT NOW than there are gas stations (or even Starbucks). A Level
>>>>> 1 charging station is more commonly known as a standard 3-prong
>>>>> electrical outlet (120V/15A...
>>> Rick Beebe wrote:
>>>> They might be common but they aren't necessarily publically
>>>> accessible,
>>> Where do you live? Here in Minnesota, or any other northern state, these
>>> outdoor outlets are everywhere, and have been for decades. They are
>>> intended for plugging in block heaters to keep your ICE warm during
>>> subzero temperatures so it will start. Most homes, apartments, and
>>> businesses have them. They are conveniently located, and free for use.
>> I'm from Maine and there were some, but not what I would call a
>> ubiquitous public charging infrastructure. Now I live in Connecticut and
>> there are even fewer.
>>
>>> For at least 10 years, the NEC (National Electric Code) has required
>>> outdoor GFCI protected outlets in all new construction. In states
>>> without winter, they are still useful for electric lawnmowers, Christmas
>>> lights, etc.
>> Yes, I have one on my house. With an 50' cord it'll reach the driveway.
>> No, you can't use it. My previous abode was a condo. There was one per
>> 4-unit building, also not particularly convenient to the driveway. There
>> have been 'horror' stories posted here in the past about the difficulty
>> that some people have had getting permission to use them or to have new
>> ones put in.
>>
>> Note that I'm not arguing against this--there _are_ billions of "level 1
>> charging stations" out there. I am saying that some of the arguments
>> that we EV proponents use to convince others that EVs should be "easy"
>> don't necessarily hold up everywhere. Or for a bit of hyperbole, it's
>> ludicrous for anyone in this country to complain about drought as we
>> have trillions and trillions of gallons of water in lakes from coast to
>> coast.
>>
>>>> in order to sell an EV you have to convince the buyer that they
>>>> won't get stuck somewhere.
>>> An EV doesn't suddenly stop like an ICE that runs out of gas. Instead,
>>> it keeps getting slower and slower, giving you plenty of warning to find
>>> a place to recharge. It can be inconvenient, but not nearly as
>>> inconvenient as running out of gas!
>> Sorry. That argument works fine for us pioneers. It doesn't hold a bit
>> of water with, say, my mother who is NOT going to knock on someone's
>> door asking to plug her car in. And the slower-and-slower behavior is
>> much less obvious with lithium powered cars where the power will stay
>> fairly steady until near the end.
>>
>> Before the unwashed masses will buy EVs they have to be convinced that
>> the car either has enough range to satisfy their worst-case local travel
>> day OR that there are _visible_, easy-to-use, public charging stations
>> along the way. We know that most people, once they take the plunge (or
>> their neighbors do) will realize that their range fears were unfounded.
>> But until then, those fears are a real impediment to EV sales. And
>> saying that the 7-11 on Main Street has an outlet behind the Coke
>> machine isn't going to assuage them.
>>
>>>> And if they're not installed, trenching
>>>> and conduits and wiring are not cheap.
>>> True; but nothing is cheap any more. The key point is that it's not a
>>> back-breaking expense, and is a whale of a lot cheaper than a special EV
>>> charging station with special boxes and outlets.
>> I was responding to Matthew's statment that they cost $3 (and the
>> implication that it's a no-brainer to add more as needed).
>>
>>>> it's nowhere near enough if lots of people start buying EVs.
>>> The number of charging outlets is automatically going to change to suit
>>> the number of EVs. As more EVs go on the road, more charging outlets
>>> will be installed. You can't expect someone to install millions of
>>> charging stations if there are only a few thousand EVs to use them.
>> Of course. And I'm all for a campaign for people to spend $10 for an "EV
>> Charging Station" sign for every accessible outdoor outlet they have.
>> That's a cheap start. The two reasons for special charging station are
>> 1) someone can make money selling them and b) a business hosting them
>> might still be able to afford their liability insurance if they're safer
>> than a regular plug.
>>
>>> All you really need is *one* charging station, somewhere near where you
>>> park your car. Adding more is nice; but not mandatory.
>> There are a bunch of parking structures associated with my place of
>> employment but only 2 charging stations. Both are occupied most days.
>> Sucks to be #3.
>>
>> --Rick
>>
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>
>
>


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