Re: [EVDL] Leaf Demo Drive follow up

Re: [EVDL] Leaf Demo Drive follow up

So,
which type of outlets are they?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEMA_connector


Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of fred
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 1:50 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf Demo Drive follow up

I've gotten what appears to be the final word. I received a photo of the
outlets available at the charging station and told that it has a 20
ampere limit. My charger for the Rav4EV has no dial-down capability and
pulls 30 amps to the best of my knowledge. I think this means no trip to
Orlando to test demo a Leaf. The other charging station is 15 miles
from the campus and I am not comfortable with leaving the vehicle or
sitting at a charge station for three hours after the event. Oh well.
It would have been fun.

fred




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Re: [EVDL] Leaf Demo Drive follow up

Responding to all of the below emails received in the digest (I hope):

Dennis, the individuals with the means to know have told me that the outlets are
indeed 20 ampere breakers, with the breakers behind locked panels. Oh boy and on
a Saturday.

Lee, I don't have the meters to make such a check, but probably should pick one
up from the good people at Harbor Freight one of these days. We aren't due for a
recharge for a couple of days so I have time. I can open the junction box at the
bottom of the charger to pick up the leads. Do I latch onto any one of the hot
leads for a reference reading?
Cor, The outlets are NEMA 6-20, which matches the link you've provided and the
photo I have of the facility and those numbers don't work for me at all. There's
a NEMA 14-50 plug on the charger and on the J1772 adapter.
Martin, I wondered the same thing, but figure that the costs involved in two
plugs and an outlet would be excessive. I do have some serious gauge copper left
over from a 220v outlet install, so that part isn't a problem.
Zeke, I'd think they would be on separate breakers, since it is supposed to be
designed for charging four EVs at one time. That's the positive side but the
costs are driving me away.

My wife suggested that we could take the ICE vehicle to the demo. I let her
live.


------------------------------

From: Dennis Miles <[email protected]>

Fred, the typical outlet for 120 V. is 15 or 20 amp limited (80% load is
expected) for usage at 12 or 16 Amps load. The common 208 or 240 V. outlets
are 30 or 50 amp limited for 24 or 40 Amp usage (That is a "Dryer" or
"Range" outlet not j1772 which is setup and UL approved for a 32 Amp load at
208 or 240 Volts) If they have the two 240 V. outlets for older EV and golf
carts they may still be 30 amp capable as it sounds like they only gave you
the current level for the 120 V outlet!
------------------------------

From: Lee Hart <[email protected]>
The current listed on the nameplate may well be the maximum current that
the charger draws under worst-case conditions (completely dead pack, low
AC linve voltage, etc.) I'd get a meter and measure the actual current
before I gave up on the idea.

------------------------------

From: "Cor van de Water" <[email protected]>

So,
which type of outlets are they?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEMA_connector

------------------------------
From: Martin WINLOW <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf Demo Drive follow up

Could you take two outlets and make an adapter that combines them to
one to connect to your charger? That way you'd have a 40A
supply...??? Any EE's out there - would this work?

------------------------------

From: Zeke Yewdall <[email protected]>

Depends on whether there's a separate breaker to each of the 20A outlets, or
if they are all on the same breaker, but just multiple outlets, as is more
common (at least for outlets not intended for multiple EV charging or a
kitchen).

End of messages.
------------------------------




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Re: [EVDL] Leaf Demo Drive follow up

Hello Fred,

If you are going to parallel two 120 volt 20 amps outlets for 2 x 16 = 32
amps, Make sure both outlets are on the same phase (line 1) feeder line from
the main circuit breaker panel. If you parallel the charger leads to two
different receptacles that are one two different feeder lines or phase 1 and
phase 2, you will trip either the branch breakers or the feeder breakers
back at the main panel.

To check to see if the receptacles are on the same phase, insert your volt
meter test lead in the small vertical slot which is the hot in one
receptacle and in the other test lead in the other outlet small vertical
slot. The small vertical slots is the phase 1 or black or hot.

If you get no reading, then both receptacles are on the same feeder line.
If you get 240 volts, then each receptacle is wire in alternate phases which
is common in commercial wiring.

If you use the 240 voltage, you amperage is still limit to 16 amps per line
per 20 amp circuit breaker.

You will still have the same wattage out of the 120 volt at 32 amp or at 240
volt at 16 amps which will be 3840 watts.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "fred" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf Demo Drive follow up


> Responding to all of the below emails received in the digest (I hope):
>
> Dennis, the individuals with the means to know have told me that the
> outlets are
> indeed 20 ampere breakers, with the breakers behind locked panels. Oh boy
> and on
> a Saturday.
>
> Lee, I don't have the meters to make such a check, but probably should
> pick one
> up from the good people at Harbor Freight one of these days. We aren't due
> for a
> recharge for a couple of days so I have time. I can open the junction box
> at the
> bottom of the charger to pick up the leads. Do I latch onto any one of the
> hot
> leads for a reference reading?
> Cor, The outlets are NEMA 6-20, which matches the link you've provided and
> the
> photo I have of the facility and those numbers don't work for me at all.
> There's
> a NEMA 14-50 plug on the charger and on the J1772 adapter.
> Martin, I wondered the same thing, but figure that the costs involved in
> two
> plugs and an outlet would be excessive. I do have some serious gauge
> copper left
> over from a 220v outlet install, so that part isn't a problem.
> Zeke, I'd think they would be on separate breakers, since it is supposed
> to be
> designed for charging four EVs at one time. That's the positive side but
> the
> costs are driving me away.
>
> My wife suggested that we could take the ICE vehicle to the demo. I let
> her
> live.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: Dennis Miles <[email protected]>
>
> Fred, the typical outlet for 120 V. is 15 or 20 amp limited (80% load is
> expected) for usage at 12 or 16 Amps load. The common 208 or 240 V.
> outlets
> are 30 or 50 amp limited for 24 or 40 Amp usage (That is a "Dryer" or
> "Range" outlet not j1772 which is setup and UL approved for a 32 Amp load
> at
> 208 or 240 Volts) If they have the two 240 V. outlets for older EV and
> golf
> carts they may still be 30 amp capable as it sounds like they only gave
> you
> the current level for the 120 V outlet!
> ------------------------------
>
> From: Lee Hart <[email protected]>
> The current listed on the nameplate may well be the maximum current that
> the charger draws under worst-case conditions (completely dead pack, low
> AC linve voltage, etc.) I'd get a meter and measure the actual current
> before I gave up on the idea.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "Cor van de Water" <[email protected]>
>
> So,
> which type of outlets are they?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEMA_connector
>
> ------------------------------
> From: Martin WINLOW <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf Demo Drive follow up
>
> Could you take two outlets and make an adapter that combines them to
> one to connect to your charger? That way you'd have a 40A
> supply...??? Any EE's out there - would this work?
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: Zeke Yewdall <[email protected]>
>
> Depends on whether there's a separate breaker to each of the 20A outlets,
> or
> if they are all on the same breaker, but just multiple outlets, as is more
> common (at least for outlets not intended for multiple EV charging or a
> kitchen).
>
> End of messages.
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf Demo Drive follow up

Fred,
"Never say DIE." I Googled for RV Campgrounds in the Orlando area and
there must be several dozen. I don't have the exact address for the Leaf
Demo Drive, but I suspect there are several RV Campgrounds near there and
since you will be driving I-4 from Daytona Beach almost every exit will have
a Campground and most of them offer spaces with Electricity for a very
reasonable daily rate. They are locatable on the Webb and you can usually
make Reservations with a guarantee of electricity at 30 to 50 Amps @ 120 and
240 Volts will be available and multiple connections to allow your NEMA
14-50 to plug right in ! and allow you safe charging.
By the way how are they recharging the "Leaf" demonstration vehicles? won't
they let you plug at the Demonstration site? Isn't there a Charging
Equipment suposed to be at the same demonstration? Perhaps they would
recharge your RAV4 to demonstrate their equipment versatility? Can you ask
them?
Regards,
Dennis Miles
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

fred <[email protected]> wrote:

> Responding to all of the below emails received in the digest (I hope):
>
> Dennis, the individuals with the means to know have told me that the
> outlets are
> indeed 20 ampere breakers, with the breakers behind locked panels. Oh boy
> and on
> a Saturday.
>
> Lee, I don't have the meters to make such a check, but probably should pick
> one
> up from the good people at Harbor Freight one of these days. We aren't due
> for a
> recharge for a couple of days so I have time. I can open the junction box
> at the
> bottom of the charger to pick up the leads. Do I latch onto any one of the
> hot
> leads for a reference reading?
> Cor, The outlets are NEMA 6-20, which matches the link you've provided and
> the
> photo I have of the facility and those numbers don't work for me at all.
> There's
> a NEMA 14-50 plug on the charger and on the J1772 adapter.
> Martin, I wondered the same thing, but figure that the costs involved in
> two
> plugs and an outlet would be excessive. I do have some serious gauge copper
> left
> over from a 220v outlet install, so that part isn't a problem.
> Zeke, I'd think they would be on separate breakers, since it is supposed to
> be
> designed for charging four EVs at one time. That's the positive side but
> the
> costs are driving me away.
>
> My wife suggested that we could take the ICE vehicle to the demo. I let her
> live.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: Dennis Miles <[email protected]>
>
> Fred, the typical outlet for 120 V. is 15 or 20 amp limited (80% load is
> expected) for usage at 12 or 16 Amps load. The common 208 or 240 V. outlets
> are 30 or 50 amp limited for 24 or 40 Amp usage (That is a "Dryer" or
> "Range" outlet not j1772 which is setup and UL approved for a 32 Amp load
> at
> 208 or 240 Volts) If they have the two 240 V. outlets for older EV and golf
> carts they may still be 30 amp capable as it sounds like they only gave you
> the current level for the 120 V outlet!
> ------------------------------
>
> From: Lee Hart <[email protected]>
> The current listed on the nameplate may well be the maximum current that
> the charger draws under worst-case conditions (completely dead pack, low
> AC linve voltage, etc.) I'd get a meter and measure the actual current
> before I gave up on the idea.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "Cor van de Water" <[email protected]>
>
> So,
> which type of outlets are they?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEMA_connector
>
> ------------------------------
> From: Martin WINLOW <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf Demo Drive follow up
>
> Could you take two outlets and make an adapter that combines them to
> one to connect to your charger? That way you'd have a 40A
> supply...??? Any EE's out there - would this work?
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: Zeke Yewdall <[email protected]>
>
> Depends on whether there's a separate breaker to each of the 20A outlets,
> or
> if they are all on the same breaker, but just multiple outlets, as is more
> common (at least for outlets not intended for multiple EV charging or a
> kitchen).
>
> End of messages.
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
>
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> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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>



--
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
It ended because they started using their Brains !
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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Click to expand...

Re: [EVDL] Leaf Demo Drive follow up

NEMA 6-20 is 240V 20A
so it is easy to make a conversion cord from this to the 14-50 that you
have.
(Threat the 14-50 side as if it were a 10-50, meaning that you connect
the two hots and ground but don't connect the neutral pin, as I suspect
that your charger does not accept 110V anyway.)

In theory you can combine the current from two outlets together,
but you need to know what you are doing or you are just
creating firework and open pins with live 240V power...
You will also need access to different NEMA 6-20 duplex outlets
(if they are configured in duplex) because I would not bet that
the duplex is separated into two 20A breakers, so you may
need to take power from two separate outlets that you are sure
are on two breakers. But it is tricky...

Your best bet may be the actual Leaf recharging facility
(while you are driving the Leaf, the charger should be
available to fill your RAV4EV...

Next bet may be a nearby residence that will surely have either
14-50 or at least a 10-30 (old drier outlet) or 10-50 (old range)
so you might want to bring a conversion of that format to 14-50
(you can plug into either 10-30 and 10-50 if you cut the ground
electrode's leg to half length so it is either the bar of the L
or the upper half of the I of the 30 and 50 Amp versions.)

Indeed a camp ground is an alternative if it is located not too
far away (walking distance or do you expect a drop off or can you
pick up the RAV driver with the Leaf?)

Definitely check if the charging current from half-empty to full
will stay under 20A because then you might simply risk plugging
straight into the 6-20 with a converter cord.

Success,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of fred
Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2011 3:53 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf Demo Drive follow up

Responding to all of the below emails received in the digest (I hope):

Dennis, the individuals with the means to know have told me that the
outlets are indeed 20 ampere breakers, with the breakers behind locked
panels. Oh boy and on a Saturday.

Lee, I don't have the meters to make such a check, but probably should
pick one up from the good people at Harbor Freight one of these days. We
aren't due for a recharge for a couple of days so I have time. I can
open the junction box at the bottom of the charger to pick up the leads.
Do I latch onto any one of the hot leads for a reference reading?
Cor, The outlets are NEMA 6-20, which matches the link you've provided
and the photo I have of the facility and those numbers don't work for me
at all. There's a NEMA 14-50 plug on the charger and on the J1772
adapter.
Martin, I wondered the same thing, but figure that the costs involved in
two plugs and an outlet would be excessive. I do have some serious gauge
copper left over from a 220v outlet install, so that part isn't a
problem.
Zeke, I'd think they would be on separate breakers, since it is supposed
to be designed for charging four EVs at one time. That's the positive
side but the costs are driving me away.

My wife suggested that we could take the ICE vehicle to the demo. I let
her live.


------------------------------

From: Dennis Miles <[email protected]>

Fred, the typical outlet for 120 V. is 15 or 20 amp limited (80% load is
expected) for usage at 12 or 16 Amps load. The common 208 or 240 V.
outlets
are 30 or 50 amp limited for 24 or 40 Amp usage (That is a "Dryer" or
"Range" outlet not j1772 which is setup and UL approved for a 32 Amp
load at
208 or 240 Volts) If they have the two 240 V. outlets for older EV and
golf
carts they may still be 30 amp capable as it sounds like they only gave
you
the current level for the 120 V outlet!
------------------------------

From: Lee Hart <[email protected]>
The current listed on the nameplate may well be the maximum current that

the charger draws under worst-case conditions (completely dead pack, low

AC linve voltage, etc.) I'd get a meter and measure the actual current
before I gave up on the idea.

------------------------------

From: "Cor van de Water" <[email protected]>

So,
which type of outlets are they?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEMA_connector

------------------------------
From: Martin WINLOW <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf Demo Drive follow up

Could you take two outlets and make an adapter that combines them to
one to connect to your charger? That way you'd have a 40A
supply...??? Any EE's out there - would this work?

------------------------------

From: Zeke Yewdall <[email protected]>

Depends on whether there's a separate breaker to each of the 20A
outlets, or
if they are all on the same breaker, but just multiple outlets, as is
more
common (at least for outlets not intended for multiple EV charging or a
kitchen).

End of messages.
------------------------------




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Re: [EVDL] Leaf Demo Drive follow up

> Could you take two outlets and make an adapter that combines them to
> one to connect to your charger? That way you'd have a 40A
> supply...??? Any EE's out there - would this work?

Electrically, it could work (as others have pointed out). However, there
are three reasons it shouldn't be done:

1. It violates the electrical code. The NEC does not allow you to draw
power from two outlets for one device.

2. It isn't safe. If you plug in one cord, the male prongs of the other
cord are LIVE! Anyone who touched them would get a shock.

3. The outdoor outlets are almost certain to be protected by a GFCI. It
will trip if you try to draw current from the hot wire without an
identical (equal and opposite) current flowing back in the neutral.
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Re: [EVDL] Leaf Demo Drive follow up

Roland, based on Cor's and Lee's messages below, I'm thinking that even if
things might work, or even if they would work with certainty by connecting wires
in a wye configuration, the university is not going to allow anything of the
sort. The big L-word looms in everybody's world it seems, so it's best to not
attempt such things. Lee, the photo I have indicates that the 110v outlet has a
GFCI and the 220v probably does too.

On the other hand, I have a friend who lives within a reasonable distance from
the event and I might be able to impose on him to pull his dryer forward to
allow access to the outlet. A small investment that may be used in the future
would be an adapter/extension cable with the dryer-type outlet to a NEMA 15-50
outlet for our charger, which happens to be a good use for the extra wiring I
have.

Lee, could you elaborate or point me to links with twenty seven eight-by-ten
colour glossy photographs with circlesand arrows and a paragraph on the back of
each one explaining what each one was to be used as evidence against us... oops,
wrong topic. Are there images out here in the big world of the 'net that shows
clipping pins on plugs and stuff like that?

Dennis, I won't be taking I-4 unless there are no alternatives. It's easier for
me to maintain the desired 45 mph on 415 into Sanford and the other little towns
heading into the east side of Orlando where the campus is and where the demo is
being held. The specific address for the demolition... demonstration is UCF
Arena Bldg 50 N. Gemini BlvdOrlando, FL and we have a purported reservation for
10am on Saturday, February 5th, 2011. The idea of sitting at a campground for
three hours while the Rav4EV charges sounds like an exercise in sustained
boredom, which is why I'm hopeful my friend will be home and agreeable to the
idea. Even though I plan to take my electric self-balancing unicycle from Focus
Designs (obvious product placement), it has only 90 minutes of battery power,
although I suppose I could take the second battery and there's three hours. My
wife could take her wi-fi equipped iPad for her entertainment, assuming they
have wireless 'net, but the friend option is still the better one.

The Leaf demo drive people have told me to use the internet sites for locating
charge points. Pretty useless overall, since I've learned of so many others
simply from this list and other forum resources. It's possible that they might
not object, but no one is providing an official answer. It's also possible that
we could show up in the Rav4EV and have an offer to suckle off their electron
source. It's been said that their source is liquid dinosaur powered generators,
but if they're going to be running them anyway, at least I can pull some power
and not let it go to waste. I'd have to have the friend-back-up plan, though,
and the campground idea becomes a level 2 backup as well.

I did pick up a cheap clamp-on multi-meter, for all of seven american dollars at
Harbor Freight, by using a combination of cards, coupons and sale pricing. It
may be cheap, it may be inaccurate, but I don't need expensive or
too-much-accuracy for this application. It's the first time I've really needed
the use of an AC ammeter and may be the last. Should I require something
dependable, accurate, I'll spring for a Fluke or similar well-known product
line. There's always good quality stuff on eBay.




------------------------------

From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf Demo Drive follow up

Hello Fred,

If you are going to parallel two 120 volt 20 amps outlets for 2 x 16 = 32
amps, Make sure both outlets are on the same phase (line 1) feeder line from
the main circuit breaker panel. If you parallel the charger leads to two
different receptacles that are one two different feeder lines or phase 1 and
phase 2, you will trip either the branch breakers or the feeder breakers
back at the main panel.

To check to see if the receptacles are on the same phase, insert your volt
meter test lead in the small vertical slot which is the hot in one
receptacle and in the other test lead in the other outlet small vertical
slot. The small vertical slots is the phase 1 or black or hot.

If you get no reading, then both receptacles are on the same feeder line.
If you get 240 volts, then each receptacle is wire in alternate phases which
is common in commercial wiring.

If you use the 240 voltage, you amperage is still limit to 16 amps per line
per 20 amp circuit breaker.

You will still have the same wattage out of the 120 volt at 32 amp or at 240
volt at 16 amps which will be 3840 watts.

Roland


------------------------------
From: Dennis Miles <[email protected]>

Fred,
"Never say DIE." I Googled for RV Campgrounds in the Orlando area and
there must be several dozen. I don't have the exact address for the Leaf
Demo Drive, but I suspect there are several RV Campgrounds near there and
since you will be driving I-4 from Daytona Beach almost every exit will have
a Campground and most of them offer spaces with Electricity for a very
reasonable daily rate. They are locatable on the Webb and you can usually
make Reservations with a guarantee of electricity at 30 to 50 Amps @ 120 and
240 Volts will be available and multiple connections to allow your NEMA
14-50 to plug right in ! and allow you safe charging.
By the way how are they recharging the "Leaf" demonstration vehicles? won't
they let you plug at the Demonstration site? Isn't there a Charging
Equipment suposed to be at the same demonstration? Perhaps they would
recharge your RAV4 to demonstrate their equipment versatility? Can you ask
them?
Regards,
Dennis Miles
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


------------------------------
From: "Cor van de Water" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf Demo Drive follow up

NEMA 6-20 is 240V 20A
so it is easy to make a conversion cord from this to the 14-50 that you
have.
(Threat the 14-50 side as if it were a 10-50, meaning that you connect
the two hots and ground but don't connect the neutral pin, as I suspect
that your charger does not accept 110V anyway.)

In theory you can combine the current from two outlets together,
but you need to know what you are doing or you are just
creating firework and open pins with live 240V power...
You will also need access to different NEMA 6-20 duplex outlets
(if they are configured in duplex) because I would not bet that
the duplex is separated into two 20A breakers, so you may
need to take power from two separate outlets that you are sure
are on two breakers. But it is tricky...

Your best bet may be the actual Leaf recharging facility
(while you are driving the Leaf, the charger should be
available to fill your RAV4EV...

Next bet may be a nearby residence that will surely have either
14-50 or at least a 10-30 (old drier outlet) or 10-50 (old range)
so you might want to bring a conversion of that format to 14-50
(you can plug into either 10-30 and 10-50 if you cut the ground
electrode's leg to half length so it is either the bar of the L
or the upper half of the I of the 30 and 50 Amp versions.)

Indeed a camp ground is an alternative if it is located not too
far away (walking distance or do you expect a drop off or can you
pick up the RAV driver with the Leaf?)

Definitely check if the charging current from half-empty to full
will stay under 20A because then you might simply risk plugging
straight into the 6-20 with a converter cord.

Success,

Cor van de Water
------------------------------
From: Lee Hart <[email protected]>

> Could you take two outlets and make an adapter that combines them to
> one to connect to your charger? That way you'd have a 40A
> supply...??? Any EE's out there - would this work?

Electrically, it could work (as others have pointed out). However, there
are three reasons it shouldn't be done:

1. It violates the electrical code. The NEC does not allow you to draw
power from two outlets for one device.

2. It isn't safe. If you plug in one cord, the male prongs of the other
cord are LIVE! Anyone who touched them would get a shock.

3. The outdoor outlets are almost certain to be protected by a GFCI. It
will trip if you try to draw current from the hot wire without an
identical (equal and opposite) current flowing back in the neutral.
--
Lee A. Hart
------------------------------

From: Lee Hart <[email protected]>

Yes. The easiest type of ammeter to use is the clamp-on type. It has a
round ring like a donut. A button opens the ring, you put the wire that
you want to measure the current inside the donut, and close the ring.
You only want one wire in the ring (not both wires in the cord), so you
pretty much have to do this inside an electrical box where the wires are
separate.

Don't buy the cheapest thing you can find. A good meter is a tool you
will use for years. It's a waste of money to get a cheap one that reads
inaccurately, or that will be broken in a year.

**********************************
End of messages




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Re: [EVDL] Leaf Demo Drive follow up

Lee;

While we're on this subject I have a similar question.
How do I safely set up a receptacle on my car to take a DC source from
my charger.
I do not want to mount the charger in the car, so I will need to plug
the charger DC source into a receptacle on the car.
Problem is the male receptacle will be directly connected to my pack
voltage. Prongs will be live.

I know others are doing this, but would like to know the right way to
set this up.


Thanks;
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
http://www.evalbum.com/1366




-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Hart [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 10:57 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf Demo Drive follow up

> Could you take two outlets and make an adapter that combines them to
> one to connect to your charger? That way you'd have a 40A
> supply...??? Any EE's out there - would this work?

Electrically, it could work (as others have pointed out). However, there

are three reasons it shouldn't be done:

1. It violates the electrical code. The NEC does not allow you to draw
power from two outlets for one device.

2. It isn't safe. If you plug in one cord, the male prongs of the other
cord are LIVE! Anyone who touched them would get a shock.

3. The outdoor outlets are almost certain to be protected by a GFCI. It
will trip if you try to draw current from the hot wire without an
identical (equal and opposite) current flowing back in the neutral.
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf Demo Drive follow up

Dennis,
This one is not so difficult. Use a suitable male receptacle on the EV
and matching female plug on the end of your reasonable length of sufficient
gauge wire to carry 125 % to 150% of the charging current and insulated to
at least 150% of the DC charging voltage. You know the maximum current your
charger will output so fuses should be installed on both + and - wires at
the charger to protect the charger in the case of damage causing a short in
the cable. the same rating ( usually I size fuses at 125%to 150% of expected
maximum normal current ) fuses should be installed in the EV at the closest
point possible to the connections you make to the battery pack. then between
the male receptacle on the EV and the wiring connection to the fuses which
then lead to the EV Pack is where you install a relay or contactor(Again
contacts rated for 150% to 200% of expected current and voltage from the
charger.) the coil will probably be rated for 12 volts and be connected to
the vehicle 12 volt supply thru a micro-switch positioned to turn the relay
or contactor on as the female plug from the cable to the charger is pluged
into the
EV. I like using a magnetic reed switch and trigger it on with a magnet
glued to the plug so sticking a child's fingers into the receptacle doesn't
trigger the switch and apply hazardous voltage from the pack to the exposed
connections.
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
It ended because they started using their Brains !
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 8:01 AM, Pestka, Dennis J <

[email protected]> wrote:

> Lee;
>
> While we're on this subject I have a similar question.
> How do I safely set up a receptacle on my car to take a DC source from
> my charger.
> I do not want to mount the charger in the car, so I will need to plug
> the charger DC source into a receptacle on the car.
> Problem is the male receptacle will be directly connected to my pack
> voltage. Prongs will be live.
>
> I know others are doing this, but would like to know the right way to
> set this up.
>
>
> Thanks;
> Dennis
> Elsberry, MO
> http://www.evalbum.com/1366
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lee Hart [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 10:57 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf Demo Drive follow up
>
> > Could you take two outlets and make an adapter that combines them to
> > one to connect to your charger? That way you'd have a 40A
> > supply...??? Any EE's out there - would this work?
>
> Electrically, it could work (as others have pointed out). However, there
>
> are three reasons it shouldn't be done:
>
> 1. It violates the electrical code. The NEC does not allow you to draw
> power from two outlets for one device.
>
> 2. It isn't safe. If you plug in one cord, the male prongs of the other
> cord are LIVE! Anyone who touched them would get a shock.
>
> 3. The outdoor outlets are almost certain to be protected by a GFCI. It
> will trip if you try to draw current from the hot wire without an
> identical (equal and opposite) current flowing back in the neutral.
> --
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



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Click to expand...

Re: [EVDL] Leaf Demo Drive follow up

Hi Dennis,

In the past the "AVCON" connector was developed
specifically for this and it still forms the
foundation for newer developments such as the
J1772 and level 3 charging proposals.
In essence, even though the male pins on the vehicle
carry pack DC voltage, they might either not be touchable
(mechanical protective cover) or they should not be
live due to the requirement that a pilot signal must be
communicated between vehicle and offboard charger, so the
vehicle might only close a contactor after successfully
recognising a compatible charger.
This also protects the pack from being connected to
something that is not compatible in voltage or current.

Note that exposing pack connection outside the vehicle
is a 2-way street and the vehicle no longer has control
other than closing a contactor.
If you choose a plug/socket that is not specified to use
the pack voltage/current and charging profile, then you
can always get the situation that someone else plugs it
in and gets a strange surprise.
For example you do not want a standard plug that allows
someone to connect your pack to the nearest AC outlet,
even if you protect your EV plug mechanically (cover).
If your pack gets connected to the house wiring then
very unexpected things may happen and in terms of
safety, unexpected is not good.

One suggestion I have is to look into dedicated DC
connectors. I have used an Anderson connector to allow
plugging different chargers into my pack and even to
plug a 240V outlet into my 312V pack, so I could
decide to run a standard appliance from my pack after
I verified that it will run from approx 320V DC.
Note that the Multipole connectors are already keyed to
+ and - pin and are hermaphroditic which means that the
two sides look identical, there is no male and female.
Electroauto even has them on their web site:
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/hardware.shtml
But they usually are available on Ebay as well.
Another advantage is that they are available with
additional (low power) contacts that will only connect
after the big pins are seated properly, so these can
be used to power contactors or communicate a pilot signal
to allow power to be engaged only after mating and before
unmating happens. For the larger sizes a handle can be
added and with the peer connector bolted down you can
yank the two apart quickly and with only one hand.
http://www.andersonpower.com/products/multipole-connectors.html

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Pestka, Dennis J
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 6:32 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf Demo Drive follow up

Lee;

While we're on this subject I have a similar question.
How do I safely set up a receptacle on my car to take a DC source from
my charger.
I do not want to mount the charger in the car, so I will need to plug
the charger DC source into a receptacle on the car.
Problem is the male receptacle will be directly connected to my pack
voltage. Prongs will be live.

I know others are doing this, but would like to know the right way to
set this up.


Thanks;
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
http://www.evalbum.com/1366




-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Hart [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 10:57 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf Demo Drive follow up

> Could you take two outlets and make an adapter that combines them to
> one to connect to your charger? That way you'd have a 40A
> supply...??? Any EE's out there - would this work?

Electrically, it could work (as others have pointed out). However, there

are three reasons it shouldn't be done:

1. It violates the electrical code. The NEC does not allow you to draw
power from two outlets for one device.

2. It isn't safe. If you plug in one cord, the male prongs of the other
cord are LIVE! Anyone who touched them would get a shock.

3. The outdoor outlets are almost certain to be protected by a GFCI. It
will trip if you try to draw current from the hot wire without an
identical (equal and opposite) current flowing back in the neutral.
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf Demo Drive follow up

I just bought a 10-30/10-50 plug for an extension cable to plug into a shop
outlet. It actually came with two sets of contacts for the ground leg. One
straight and one with the L. If you are buying parts to make your own
cable, you might watch for that. It gives you flexibility without having to
cut or file down the connector. The ground contact is screwed into the
connector after you figure out which you need.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 7:14 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf Demo Drive follow up

<snip>

Some (older) houses do not have 14-30 and 14-50 outlets but the old style
10-30 and 10-50 which has as main difference that the neutral is missing, it
is 2 hots and ground only.
The shape of the ground pin is comparable and you can use the same trick as
described above to plug into either, so you need only one conversion from
either 10-30 or 10-50 to your preferred socket in addition to the 14-50
cable which allows you to plug in at every camp ground.

Please check with your friend that lives nearby which type of drier outlet
his house has, before you run into this issue and you need to disassemble
his drier to borrow the cord, before you can charge....

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group Proxim Wireless Corporation
http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130



_______________________________________________
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf Demo Drive follow up

Then there is safety contactors that are between the output of the charger
and battery and the battery pack and controller.

During one night I saw the motor communtator face arcing down to the pilot
shaft while the charge was on. The most negative line goes right through
the controller to the motor. I then install two contactors between the
battery pack and controller.

One time a battery link arc when I disconnected from the battery. The
charger was off and not connected to the AC input. This is cause by the
capacitors in the PFC-50B charger. I then install a two pole contactor
between the charger output and battery pack which is switch control to
prevent this arcing which you cannot see in the daylight.

You have to be careful of using a contactor between the charger and the
battery pack. If the charger is fully on and this contactor goes off the
line, it may cause the charger to fail under no load, which could happen to
the PFC chargers.

Therefore I had to add a two pole AC contactor between the AC input and
charger. This AC contactor is interface with the DC output contactor by use
of added power poles that is attach to the contactors. This AC contactor is
line voltage control as where when I plug in the AC plug, this AC contactor
self holds.

One thing that I did not install yet, is a ground detection device that we
use in some industrial applications which is use to shut down the AC input
to a load. You can control the AC contactor with this device which can be
adjusted to any current level you want.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 11:46 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf Demo Drive follow up

> Pestka, Dennis J wrote:
> > How do I safely set up a receptacle on my car to take a DC source from
> > my charger?
>
> There are a number of ways to do this.
>
> The obvious way is to put some kind of connector on the charger and on
> the pack. But with a charger and battery pack, *both* ends can be "live"
> and be a shock hazard! You can't have a male connector with exposed pins
> on either half!
>
> Some solutions:
>
> 1. Use an Avcon or J1772 connector, which were specifically designed
> to deal with this issue. Expensive, but the current "standard" way
> to do it.
>
> 2. Use an Anderson connector (or other type that doesn't have exposed
> pins on *either* half. Anderson even makes some versions with extra
> deep pins to further reduce the chance of touching a pin.
>
> 3. Use a connector with one male pin and one female pin. On both the
> charger and battery side, you can only touch *one* live pin. This
> cheap, and so commonly done on low voltage battery/charger systems.
>
> 4. Have circuitry in the charger that only turns it on after it senses
> voltage from the battery pack. Then the charger can have a male
> connector, and the battery pack has the female connector. Lester
> does this on some of their charger, for example.
>
> 5. Add extra pins to the charging connector. They have signals that
> must be completed to charge. For example, 2 extra pins with +12v
> and ground from the EV. They power a relay in the charger that
> turns it on. Again, the female connector is on the EV side.
>
> 6. Add a switch to the EV that opens the two pack wires that go to
> the charging connector. Operate this switch with a mechanical
> interlock; for example, opening the "charging" door to expose the
> charging connector opens the switch. Plug in the charger, and
> close the door (with the cord in a notch in the door).
>
> 7. Add a contactor to the EV that opens the two pack wires. This
> contactor must be turned on to connect the pack to the charging
> connector. You can use power from the charger, or a switch on
> a door over the charging connector, or a magnet on the charge
> cord and reed switch in the EV's connector, etc.
>
> 8. Add diodes between the EV's pack and the charging connector.
> A bridge rectifier, for example. It blocks current flowing out
> (causing a short or shock), but allows charging current to come
> in. Can mess up the charger's ability to measure pack voltage.
>
> 9. Magnetic coupling (a.k.a. Magnecharger or Inductran).
>
> There are probably other methods as well. Any comments?
> --
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Click to expand...

Re: [EVDL] Leaf Demo Drive follow up

Thanks to Lee, Roland, Dennis, Cor, others for all the great responses.

This is for a drag racing setup with (3) 156V AGM packs.
Each pack will be isolated with contactors when the key is off. With the
key on they are in parallel with ~ +2000A of potential current.
To charge I will need a plug and receptacle that can accept 5 wires. (3
Positives, 1 Negative, and a Ground.)
In the Bulk phase of charging, each pack will need ~ 6.5A for a total
load of ~ 20A.

I'm thinking of using this, with a L23-30, 600VAC 30A rated receptacle.
http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/detail.ex?sku=0744393&ucst=t

Any issues ?

Thanks again;
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
http://www.evalbum.com/1366



-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Hart [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 1:46 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf Demo Drive follow up

Pestka, Dennis J wrote:
> How do I safely set up a receptacle on my car to take a DC source from
> my charger?

There are a number of ways to do this.

The obvious way is to put some kind of connector on the charger and on
the pack. But with a charger and battery pack, *both* ends can be "live"

and be a shock hazard! You can't have a male connector with exposed pins

on either half!

Some solutions:

1. Use an Avcon or J1772 connector, which were specifically designed
to deal with this issue. Expensive, but the current "standard" way
to do it.

2. Use an Anderson connector (or other type that doesn't have exposed
pins on *either* half. Anderson even makes some versions with extra
deep pins to further reduce the chance of touching a pin.

3. Use a connector with one male pin and one female pin. On both the
charger and battery side, you can only touch *one* live pin. This
cheap, and so commonly done on low voltage battery/charger systems.

4. Have circuitry in the charger that only turns it on after it senses
voltage from the battery pack. Then the charger can have a male
connector, and the battery pack has the female connector. Lester
does this on some of their charger, for example.

5. Add extra pins to the charging connector. They have signals that
must be completed to charge. For example, 2 extra pins with +12v
and ground from the EV. They power a relay in the charger that
turns it on. Again, the female connector is on the EV side.

6. Add a switch to the EV that opens the two pack wires that go to
the charging connector. Operate this switch with a mechanical
interlock; for example, opening the "charging" door to expose the
charging connector opens the switch. Plug in the charger, and
close the door (with the cord in a notch in the door).

7. Add a contactor to the EV that opens the two pack wires. This
contactor must be turned on to connect the pack to the charging
connector. You can use power from the charger, or a switch on
a door over the charging connector, or a magnet on the charge
cord and reed switch in the EV's connector, etc.

8. Add diodes between the EV's pack and the charging connector.
A bridge rectifier, for example. It blocks current flowing out
(causing a short or shock), but allows charging current to come
in. Can mess up the charger's ability to measure pack voltage.

9. Magnetic coupling (a.k.a. Magnecharger or Inductran).

There are probably other methods as well. Any comments?
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

Click to expand...

Re: [EVDL] Leaf Demo Drive follow up

Sorry, this is the link I meant to attach.

http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/detail.ex?sku=0744394&ucst=t

Thanks;
Dennis


-----Original Message-----
From: Pestka, Dennis J
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 8:04 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: RE: [EVDL] Leaf Demo Drive follow up

Thanks to Lee, Roland, Dennis, Cor, others for all the great responses.

This is for a drag racing setup with (3) 156V AGM packs.
Each pack will be isolated with contactors when the key is off. With the
key on they are in parallel with ~ +2000A of potential current.
To charge I will need a plug and receptacle that can accept 5 wires. (3
Positives, 1 Negative, and a Ground.)
In the Bulk phase of charging, each pack will need ~ 6.5A for a total
load of ~ 20A.

I'm thinking of using this, with a L23-30, 600VAC 30A rated receptacle.
http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/detail.ex?sku=0744393&ucst=t

Any issues ?

Thanks again;
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
http://www.evalbum.com/1366



-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Hart [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 1:46 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf Demo Drive follow up

Pestka, Dennis J wrote:
> How do I safely set up a receptacle on my car to take a DC source from
> my charger?

There are a number of ways to do this.

The obvious way is to put some kind of connector on the charger and on
the pack. But with a charger and battery pack, *both* ends can be "live"

and be a shock hazard! You can't have a male connector with exposed pins

on either half!

Some solutions:

1. Use an Avcon or J1772 connector, which were specifically designed
to deal with this issue. Expensive, but the current "standard" way
to do it.

2. Use an Anderson connector (or other type that doesn't have exposed
pins on *either* half. Anderson even makes some versions with extra
deep pins to further reduce the chance of touching a pin.

3. Use a connector with one male pin and one female pin. On both the
charger and battery side, you can only touch *one* live pin. This
cheap, and so commonly done on low voltage battery/charger systems.

4. Have circuitry in the charger that only turns it on after it senses
voltage from the battery pack. Then the charger can have a male
connector, and the battery pack has the female connector. Lester
does this on some of their charger, for example.

5. Add extra pins to the charging connector. They have signals that
must be completed to charge. For example, 2 extra pins with +12v
and ground from the EV. They power a relay in the charger that
turns it on. Again, the female connector is on the EV side.

6. Add a switch to the EV that opens the two pack wires that go to
the charging connector. Operate this switch with a mechanical
interlock; for example, opening the "charging" door to expose the
charging connector opens the switch. Plug in the charger, and
close the door (with the cord in a notch in the door).

7. Add a contactor to the EV that opens the two pack wires. This
contactor must be turned on to connect the pack to the charging
connector. You can use power from the charger, or a switch on
a door over the charging connector, or a magnet on the charge
cord and reed switch in the EV's connector, etc.

8. Add diodes between the EV's pack and the charging connector.
A bridge rectifier, for example. It blocks current flowing out
(causing a short or shock), but allows charging current to come
in. Can mess up the charger's ability to measure pack voltage.

9. Magnetic coupling (a.k.a. Magnecharger or Inductran).

There are probably other methods as well. Any comments?
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



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