[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] Sanity prevails. Hydrogen vehicles too expensive.

>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 15:59:25 -0800 (PST)
> From: Lawrence Rhodes <[email protected]>
> Subject: [EVDL] Sanity prevails. Hydrogen vehicles too expensive.
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> http://evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=25344?What a waste of resources.? I
> could
> have built a fleet of buses and run them on Golf Cart batteries and get
> better
> efficiency than just these two expensive pigs.?? A wasted experiment in my
> opinion.? Lawrence Rhodes...


Ive seen videos of home built hydrogen cars. looks like they are the
propane converted cars run on hydrogen instead of natural gas, and thats it.

I think they are adding in the cost to get hydrogen. naturally occuring
hydrogen is with natural gas deposits, expensive. using electrolysis takes
too much energy to get the hydrogen out they say (yet it takes WAY more
energy to get the gasoline to a gas station then what you get out of the
gas. gas is only 25% efficient, means 75% is wasted) .

I saw a video of a chemical reaction that produced vast amounts of hydrogen.
the process was used to fill *up BLIMPS during world war I.* Si and NaOH
produces hydrogen naturally.

I dont see how hydrogen cars are expensive when a propane kit is $1500.
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[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] Sanity prevails. Hydrogen vehicles too expensive.

Back in the 70's I experimented in running a 242 cu.in. GM engine in A 77 El
Camino as a series hybrid where the engine was clutch connected to the GE 11
motor input shaft on my EV.

I use the standard propane kit that was a tri-fuel system. One fuel was
propane which was first use to start and warm up the engine then was switch
to 100 proof alcohol that came from a second tank that was like the propane
tank. A heat exchange preheat this fuel which we made out at a farm which I
got for 50 cents a gallon.

I then replace the 100 proof with the chemical - ammonia (NH3) which is use
as fertilizer on this farm. This stuff is normally ship from a plant that
we have here in town to farmers all over the state. They store this
chemical in 5000 gallons tanks. You must have a permit and license to
handle this stuff.

I mix this NH3 with water that went into the tank. It was then pump into a
cracker which is a electrolysis tank that instantly remove the hydrogen H3
from the N in the ammonia nitrate. This H3 went into a propane heat
exchanger and then to a propane carburetor that sat on top of a four barrel
Holly carburetor that was modified for alcohol fuel.

The hydrogen does not need any pre-compression like gasoline does. It will
ignite the minute you put a spark to it. We had to start our ignition just
over top dead center so as not to knock the piston down while it was still
coming up.

I use this rig during this time, so I can climb a very steep hill to work.
If I use the electric motor my it self, it would take over 600 motor amps to
keep it at 50 mph. I use a current transformer to measure this the motor
ampere which I set for 400 amp maximum. When it got to 400 amps, the same
accelerator linkage that control the engine also control the electronic
accelerator, would switch over. It had a 200 amp differential, so it would
not short cycle by using a adjustable time delay relay.

The next problem with this set up is that when the hydrogen ignites, in a
standard engine, there is blow by of water vapor into the oil sump. We had
a valve tap off the bottom to drain out the water. Could had use a
water-oil separator unit like they have on some diesel trucks.

These types of engines are all wrong for this type of fuel. It is best to
use a turbine engine. There was one college that experiment in a turbine
engine by using a exhaust driven turbo charger which work for them.

Remember that hydrogen is about 500,000 btus per gallon/volume while gas is
about 115,000 btus per gallon and propane is about 90,000 btus per gallon.

Roland




----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Clark" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sanity prevails. Hydrogen vehicles too expensive.


> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 15:59:25 -0800 (PST)
> > From: Lawrence Rhodes <[email protected]>
> > Subject: [EVDL] Sanity prevails. Hydrogen vehicles too expensive.
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
> > Message-ID: <[email protected]>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> >
> > http://evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=25344?What a waste of resources.? I
> > could
> > have built a fleet of buses and run them on Golf Cart batteries and get
> > better
> > efficiency than just these two expensive pigs.?? A wasted experiment in
> > my
> > opinion.? Lawrence Rhodes...
>
>
> Ive seen videos of home built hydrogen cars. looks like they are the
> propane converted cars run on hydrogen instead of natural gas, and thats
> it.
>
> I think they are adding in the cost to get hydrogen. naturally occuring
> hydrogen is with natural gas deposits, expensive. using electrolysis
> takes
> too much energy to get the hydrogen out they say (yet it takes WAY more
> energy to get the gasoline to a gas station then what you get out of the
> gas. gas is only 25% efficient, means 75% is wasted) .
>
> I saw a video of a chemical reaction that produced vast amounts of
> hydrogen.
> the process was used to fill *up BLIMPS during world war I.* Si and NaOH
> produces hydrogen naturally.
>
> I dont see how hydrogen cars are expensive when a propane kit is $1500.
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[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] Sanity prevails. Hydrogen vehicles too expensive.

Right,

H2 powered cars are a TOTAL non-starter... for the following reasons:-

1,. The main source of hydrogen currently is from cracked natural gas
- so still using fossil fuels. If you use electrolysis to make the H2
you are back to the old argument that to make the H2 would use much
more electricity than you would use just pumping the electricity into
EVs in the first place. So it's just plain silly.
2. If you plan to use H2 in an ICE, you are still getting pants
efficiency. If you use a fuel cell it is still only MAX 40%
efficient. Back to the argument in 1.
3. To put sufficient H2 in a package sufficiently practical to put in
a car to give adequate range is enormously expensive due to its lack
of compressibility. It isn't LPG or propane etc which will compress
to liquid with a few atmospheres - it takes 100 or more atmospheres
meaning very strong and therefore big (and very expensive) containment
vessels.
4. To store and transport H2 has all the same issues as 3. For this
reason, to build an equivalent motorway-stye refilling stations would
require HUGE sums of money compared to petrol/diesel (or electric)
designs and more HUGE sums of money to replenish it.
5. Having all that H2 sloshing about everywhere you look would be a
recipe for disasters on a daily basis. It would be much more
dangerous than petrol.

Ergo, let's forget about H2 as a means of sustaining our personal
mobility system. It might be a super idea on the Moon or something
but for terra firma it's as daft as Daffy Duck.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk

Michael Clark wrote:

>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 15:59:25 -0800 (PST)
>> From: Lawrence Rhodes <[email protected]>
>>
>>
>> http://evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=25344?What a waste of
>> resources.? I
>> could
>> have built a fleet of buses and run them on Golf Cart batteries and
>> get
>> better
>> efficiency than just these two expensive pigs.?? A wasted
>> experiment in my
>> opinion.? Lawrence Rhodes...
>
>
> Ive seen videos of home built hydrogen cars. looks like they are the
> propane converted cars run on hydrogen instead of natural gas, and
> thats it.
>
> I think they are adding in the cost to get hydrogen. naturally
> occuring
> hydrogen is with natural gas deposits, expensive. using
> electrolysis takes
> too much energy to get the hydrogen out they say (yet it takes WAY
> more
> energy to get the gasoline to a gas station then what you get out of
> the
> gas. gas is only 25% efficient, means 75% is wasted) .
>
> I saw a video of a chemical reaction that produced vast amounts of
> hydrogen.
> the process was used to fill *up BLIMPS during world war I.* Si and
> NaOH
> produces hydrogen naturally.
>
> I dont see how hydrogen cars are expensive when a propane kit is
> $1500.



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[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] Sanity prevails. Hydrogen vehicles too expensive.

>
> Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 10:27:50 +0000
> From: Martin WINLOW <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sanity prevails. Hydrogen vehicles too expensive.
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> Right,
>
> H2 powered cars are a TOTAL non-starter... for the following reasons:-
>
> 1,. The main source of hydrogen currently is from cracked natural gas
> - so still using fossil fuels. If you use electrolysis to make the H2
> you are back to the old argument that to make the H2 would use much
> more electricity than you would use just pumping the electricity into
> EVs in the first place. So it's just plain silly.
> 2. If you plan to use H2 in an ICE, you are still getting pants
> efficiency. If you use a fuel cell it is still only MAX 40%
> efficient. Back to the argument in 1.
> 3. To put sufficient H2 in a package sufficiently practical to put in
> a car to give adequate range is enormously expensive due to its lack
> of compressibility. It isn't LPG or propane etc which will compress
> to liquid with a few atmospheres - it takes 100 or more atmospheres
> meaning very strong and therefore big (and very expensive) containment
> vessels.
> 4. To store and transport H2 has all the same issues as 3. For this
> reason, to build an equivalent motorway-stye refilling stations would
> require HUGE sums of money compared to petrol/diesel (or electric)
> designs and more HUGE sums of money to replenish it.
> 5. Having all that H2 sloshing about everywhere you look would be a
> recipe for disasters on a daily basis. It would be much more
> dangerous than petrol.
>
> Ergo, let's forget about H2 as a means of sustaining our personal
> mobility system. It might be a super idea on the Moon or something
> but for terra firma it's as daft as Daffy Duck.
>
> Regards, Martin Winlow
> Herts, UK
> http://www.evalbum.com/2092
> www.winlow.co.uk


The hydrogen gas in the ground is not where to find it and would be the same
as drilling for oil.

getting hydrogen out of water using solar panels or producing hydrogen from
minerals from the ground , or the stuf on the beach, SAND. costs pennies (
they used minerals in 1919 to produce hydrogen for blimps) negates the too
much electricity argument. compare the transmission of electricity from the
power plant how much electricity does it take to pump the electricity we use
in our homes?

hydrogen can be compressed with a diving air compressor. can be compressed
as much as natural gas.

hydrogen can be produced at the filing station, no more transport problems
like gasoline.

there are thousands of trucks driving on the roads with cylinders of
compressed H2 and other explosive gases and no epidemic of disasters. there
are millions of cars on the roads carrying 15 gallons of gasoline yet only a
few explode.

gasoline ignites as much as hydrogen, i dont see gas stations blowing up
everywhere. where to store the hydrogen? same place gasoline is stored ,
underground.

I do agree, lets use EVs... my tie in here is to use evs with range
extenders that run on hydrogen.
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[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] Sanity prevails. Hydrogen vehicles too expensive.

Hydrogen from sand??? Silicon dioxide (SiO2) does not contain hydrogen.

Industry uses the cheapest method to produce any material: in the case of
hydrogen, about 97% of the hydrogen produced in the US is from steam
reformation of natural gas (NOT carbon free, BTW...) Steam reformation is an
energy-intensive process that uses a great quantity of electricity. But
somewhat less energy than would be used in electrolysis of water to produce the
same amount of hydrogen.

If there were a cheaper way to produce hydrogen, you can bet they'd already be
using it.

Compressing hydrogen for storage and transport uses a tremendous amount of
electricity on top the amount used for production. Gaseous hydrogen tanks can't
hold enough hydrogen to propel a vehicle very far, so liquid hydrogen is a more
likely answer - but cooling hydrogen (for storage) uses even more energy - about
30% more than high pressure gaseous hydrogen. In BMW's experimental Hydrogen 7
sports car, a 170 liter insulated liquid hydrogen tank was used, and was about
as big as a washing machine drum. A full tank of hydrogen (not all liquid -
needs expansion space for safety) can propel the vehicle about 125 miles
according to manufacturer's specs.

Automotive-type liquid hydrogen storage tanks such as used in the Hydrogen 7
need to bleed off hydrogen at a rate of about 5% per day to ensure they don't
overpressure -- even the best insulation system can't keep temperatures down
forever. A lossy old-school lead acid battery pack doesn't lose 5% per day.

Hydrogen produced in a 'filling station' would likely come from reformation of
natural gas, or possibly gasoline - But the same conversion, compression, and
storage losses apply. If you need a range extender, one would be better off
using the natural gas or gasoline directly to power a generator/vehicle, and
avoid all the hydrogen conversion losses.

Better yet, just use the electricity that would be used in creating,
transporting, compressing, liquefying and storing hydrogen to quick charge an EV
battery, and leave the natural gas and other petroleum products in the ground.

Tom


>>>>>>>.

The hydrogen gas in the ground is not where to find it and would be the same
as drilling for oil.

getting hydrogen out of water using solar panels or producing hydrogen from
minerals from the ground , or the stuf on the beach, SAND. costs pennies (
they used minerals in 1919 to produce hydrogen for blimps) negates the too
much electricity argument. compare the transmission of electricity from the
power plant how much electricity does it take to pump the electricity we use
in our homes?

hydrogen can be compressed with a diving air compressor. can be compressed
as much as natural gas.

hydrogen can be produced at the filing station, no more transport problems
like gasoline.

there are thousands of trucks driving on the roads with cylinders of
compressed H2 and other explosive gases and no epidemic of disasters. there
are millions of cars on the roads carrying 15 gallons of gasoline yet only a
few explode.

gasoline ignites as much as hydrogen, i dont see gas stations blowing up
everywhere. where to store the hydrogen? same place gasoline is stored ,
underground.

I do agree, lets use EVs... my tie in here is to use evs with range
extenders that run on hydrogen.

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] Sanity prevails. Hydrogen vehicles too expensive.

You forgot an important reason: Hydrogen can make steel and other metals
brittle if exposed at pressure and temperature. The entire delivery,
storage, and usage needs to be carefully engineered and thought through to
eliminate this issue.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Martin WINLOW
Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 3:28 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sanity prevails. Hydrogen vehicles too expensive.

Right,

H2 powered cars are a TOTAL non-starter... for the following reasons:-

1,. The main source of hydrogen currently is from cracked natural gas
- so still using fossil fuels. If you use electrolysis to make the H2 you
are back to the old argument that to make the H2 would use much more
electricity than you would use just pumping the electricity into EVs in the
first place. So it's just plain silly.
2. If you plan to use H2 in an ICE, you are still getting pants efficiency.
If you use a fuel cell it is still only MAX 40% efficient. Back to the
argument in 1.
3. To put sufficient H2 in a package sufficiently practical to put in a car
to give adequate range is enormously expensive due to its lack of
compressibility. It isn't LPG or propane etc which will compress to liquid
with a few atmospheres - it takes 100 or more atmospheres meaning very
strong and therefore big (and very expensive) containment vessels.
4. To store and transport H2 has all the same issues as 3. For this
reason, to build an equivalent motorway-stye refilling stations would
require HUGE sums of money compared to petrol/diesel (or electric) designs
and more HUGE sums of money to replenish it.
5. Having all that H2 sloshing about everywhere you look would be a recipe
for disasters on a daily basis. It would be much more dangerous than
petrol.

Ergo, let's forget about H2 as a means of sustaining our personal mobility
system. It might be a super idea on the Moon or something but for terra
firma it's as daft as Daffy Duck.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk

Michael Clark wrote:

>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 15:59:25 -0800 (PST)
>> From: Lawrence Rhodes <[email protected]>
>>
>>
>> http://evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=25344?What a waste of resources.?
>> I could have built a fleet of buses and run them on Golf Cart
>> batteries and get better efficiency than just these two expensive
>> pigs.?? A wasted experiment in my opinion.? Lawrence Rhodes...
>
>
> Ive seen videos of home built hydrogen cars. looks like they are the
> propane converted cars run on hydrogen instead of natural gas, and
> thats it.
>
> I think they are adding in the cost to get hydrogen. naturally
> occuring hydrogen is with natural gas deposits, expensive. using
> electrolysis takes too much energy to get the hydrogen out they say
> (yet it takes WAY more energy to get the gasoline to a gas station
> then what you get out of the gas. gas is only 25% efficient, means
> 75% is wasted) .
>
> I saw a video of a chemical reaction that produced vast amounts of
> hydrogen.
> the process was used to fill *up BLIMPS during world war I.* Si and
> NaOH produces hydrogen naturally.
>
> I dont see how hydrogen cars are expensive when a propane kit is
> $1500.



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