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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Re: [EVDL] Silent vehicles, was Re: Sensors at drive throughs

You wrote:
>
> I must have reasonably good karma, because just after I posted this the
> AP did an article on the National Federation for the Blind pushing for
> minimum noise standards for cars:
>
> http://money.aol.com/news/articles/_a/blind-people-hybrid-cars-pose-hazard/n20071003012309990002
>
> or
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yvr84q
----------------------------
Next is minimum noise standards for my four electric bicycles.

'Deaf Like Me', maybe we should sue for 120 DB minimums,
we are handicapped too!

John, skeptic in Sylmar CA
PV EV

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Re: [EVDL] Silent vehicles, was Re: Sensors at drive throughs

On 4 Oct 2007 at 12:27, [email protected] wrote:

> National Federation for the Blind [is] pushing for
> minimum noise standards for cars

Nuts. Noise is pollution. That's like advocating minimum CO and HC
emissions for ICEs, IMO.

Maybe we should start a group to lobby for MAXIMUM noise standards for cars.
Define them so that only EVs can meet them.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Re: [EVDL] Silent vehicles, was Re: Sensors at drive throughs

David, I have seen people walk in front of EV's in parking lots because the
cars are so quiet. So, there is an actual problem.


On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 13:09:59 -0400, David Roden wrote
> On 4 Oct 2007 at 12:27, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > National Federation for the Blind [is] pushing for
> > minimum noise standards for cars
>
> Nuts. Noise is pollution. That's like advocating minimum CO and HC
> emissions for ICEs, IMO.
>
> Maybe we should start a group to lobby for MAXIMUM noise standards
> for cars. Define them so that only EVs can meet them.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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>
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Re: [EVDL] Silent vehicles, was Re: Sensors at drive throughs

OK, I know I'm off topic, but how about a nice noiseless EV Harley. I'm
really tired of those guys yanking the baffles and making enough miserable
beer fart noises to wake the dead. Why don't they get busted for noise
pollution? I never got away with making that much noise in my hot rod
Chevies. I suspect it's because most cops own Harleys. Of course the
average Harley rider would never ride a silent Harley, it wouldn't be
obnoxious enough, and vibrate enough, to make up for their E.D.

Now a strobe on an EV when driven in the city I could see.

Marty

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 12:09 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Silent vehicles, was Re: Sensors at drive throughs


> On 4 Oct 2007 at 12:27, [email protected] wrote:
>
>> National Federation for the Blind [is] pushing for
>> minimum noise standards for cars
>
> Nuts. Noise is pollution. That's like advocating minimum CO and HC
> emissions for ICEs, IMO.
>
> Maybe we should start a group to lobby for MAXIMUM noise standards for
> cars.
> Define them so that only EVs can meet them.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>


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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Re: [EVDL] Silent vehicles, was Re: Sensors at drive throughs

Marty Hewes wrote:
> Now a strobe on an EV when driven in the city I could see.

Will no one think of the epileptics?

(Apologies to any actual epileptics on the list.)

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Re: [EVDL] Silent vehicles, was Re: Sensors at drive throughs

you wrote:

>David, I have seen people walk in front of EV's in parking lots because the
>cars are so quiet. So, there is an actual problem.
>
>
I have seen people walk in front of ICE vehicles in parking lots,
because the cars are so quiet. So, there is an actual problem.
Maybe we should teach people to look before they walk into traffic?

I do not believe making everyone's car louder will make a difference
in how well pedestrians pay attention.

R. M. Milliron

1981 Jet Electrica
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702

This machine has been garaged for 17 years.
I am upgrading it and getting it running. Tabitha,
my daughter, named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.




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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Re: [EVDL] Silent vehicles, was Re: Sensors at drive throughs

Watch out bicycle riders, you will be the next target if something
like this were to be enforced. This is a matter of personal
responsibility for both parties, we should not increase noise
pollution as a substitute for those who do not pay attention in cross
walks (drivers) and those who rely on one method for their safety.
There is a great business model here though if you think about it-
canes that vibrate when cars approach, although the product liability
insurance would be huge.

M





R. Matt Milliron wrote:

> On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 10:21:11 -0700, you wrote:
>
>> David, I have seen people walk in front of EV's in parking lots
>> because the
>> cars are so quiet. So, there is an actual problem.
>>
>>
> I have seen people walk in front of ICE vehicles in parking lots,
> because the cars are so quiet. So, there is an actual problem.
> Maybe we should teach people to look before they walk into traffic?
>
> I do not believe making everyone's car louder will make a difference
> in how well pedestrians pay attention.
>
> R. M. Milliron
>
> 1981 Jet Electrica
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
>
> This machine has been garaged for 17 years.
> I am upgrading it and getting it running. Tabitha,
> my daughter, named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
> electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Re: [EVDL] Silent vehicles, was Re: Sensors at drive throughs

Marty Hewes wrote:
> OK, I know I'm off topic, but how about a nice noiseless EV Harley. I'm
> really tired of those guys yanking the baffles and making enough miserable
> beer fart noises to wake the dead.
>
> Marty

If you made an EV Harley, you would *have* to set up a 2000W amp... so it
could go thump-thump, thump-thump. Remember, that's a registered trademark
of HD (the uneven idle)... and they successfully sued a Japanese company
that was going to duplicate the sound.

Harley makes them quiet. It's the riders who uncork the exhaust... and
occasionally (though rarely) get tickets for it. <g>

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Re: [EVDL] Silent vehicles, was Re: Sensors at drive throughs

I gotta say I agree with David here. I think any arguments that have to
do with the blind requiring car noise in order to safely get around are
groundless. If you are driving a car, you need to be alert to what's
around you. If you are a pedestrian, you need to do things where the
driver can see you (not stepping out from between cars for instance).
If a blind person with no guide dog or sighted companion needs to cross
the street, they stand at the side for a few moments with their cane
visible, then they cross the street. Having cars make a minimum amount
of noise isn't going to help them unless the minimum noise is pretty
close to the maximum noise from a Harley or diesel truck.

I don't mean to seem heartless. I have one friend who is blind, and she
would like EVERYTHING to be quieter so she can concentrate better. To
her, walking through a noisy city is like me walking through downtown
Las Vegas with all the neons flashing twice as bright. She doesn't walk
through parking lots by herself because there are no boundaries to keep
herself in a straight line. She does pretty good on sidewalks where
there is an edge she can detect.

If anyone can give me an example where the blind require a car to make
noise, I would welcome it. But since the blind (with a white cane) have
right-of-way everywhere I can think of, I think it's going to be hard to
come up with one.

Regards,
Brian

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of George Swartz
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 10:21 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Silent vehicles, was Re: Sensors at drive throughs

David, I have seen people walk in front of EV's in parking lots because
the cars are so quiet. So, there is an actual problem.


On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 13:09:59 -0400, David Roden wrote
> On 4 Oct 2007 at 12:27, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > National Federation for the Blind [is] pushing for
> > minimum noise standards for cars
>
> Nuts. Noise is pollution. That's like advocating minimum CO and HC
> emissions for ICEs, IMO.
>
> Maybe we should start a group to lobby for MAXIMUM noise standards
> for cars. Define them so that only EVs can meet them.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Re: [EVDL] Silent vehicles, was Re: Sensors at drive throughs

[email protected] wrote:
>
[email protected] wrote:
>
>> I've seen some discussion as to whether electric / hybrid cars need
>> some form of noise-maker for urban environments where pedestrians are
>> used to being able to hear traffic, including the visually impaired.
>>
>> I've been toying with the idea of outfitting my (future) EV with
>> speakers. And some soundtracks. Like hoof beats. Sleigh bells.
>> Tie Fighters. I suppose dog panting might be taken amiss. X-34
>> Landspeeder. Etc., etc.
>>

As a matter of fact... some distant cousins in the EV universe have
solved this problem :)
http://www.digitrax.com/soundbug.php
http://www.soundtraxx.com/index.htm

They're for model locomotives, so we'd need a bigger speaker... but
it'll sure sound cool.

> I must have reasonably good karma, because just after I posted this the
> AP did an article on the National Federation for the Blind pushing for
> minimum noise standards for cars:
>
> http://money.aol.com/news/articles/_a/blind-people-hybrid-cars-pose-hazard/n20071003012309990002
>
> or
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yvr84q
>

I don't know. This may not be obvious to folks out in automotive
suburbia... but in cities, pedestrians are often crammed cheek to jowl
with cars that *might* be about to move. It's amazing how much you
depend on your senses to tell the difference. Silent drives throw a
wrench in that, and I've seen sighted people fooled by it.

Robert

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Re: [EVDL] Silent vehicles, was Re: Sensors at drive throughs

Robert MacDowell wrote:
> I don't know. This may not be obvious to folks out in automotive
> suburbia... but in cities, pedestrians are often crammed cheek to
> jowl with cars that *might* be about to move. It's amazing how much
> you depend on your senses to tell the difference. Silent drives
> throw a wrench in that, and I've seen sighted people fooled by it.

Yup; also, crosswalks in Boston are an interesting battleground between
pedestrians and drivers. The pedestrian (hypothetically, let's say me)
will stroll out in front of a car that is reasonably far away, and trust
that they'll slow ever-so-slightly or do other things to avoid a
collision.

I - I mean, the pedestrian - can't LOOK at the car, because in Boston
showing interest or concern is tantamount to surrendering, whether
you're walking or in a car. So you listen closely to see how it is coming.

And of course, it is also an ICE issue. Walking across a street crowded
with stopped cars (I'd have used the actual crosswalk, except that a BUS
tried to push across the intersection and go stuck astride it) I came to
a car that was absent-mindedly inching forward while the driver looked
away from me. The car wasn't making enough noise to alert anyone.
Fortunately, I knew he didn't see me so I tapped his hood a couple times
to get his attention before walking in front of him.

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Re: [EVDL] Silent vehicles, was Re: Sensors at drive throughs

> But since the blind (with a white cane) have
> right-of-way everywhere I can think of

Interstate Highways.


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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Re: [EVDL] Silent vehicles, was Re: Sensors at drive throughs

Getting back to the sensor thing.

I just saw a video on meracafe that showed a guy with a scooter who put
two neodymiam magent on the bottom of his scooter so it would trigger
the road loops and turn on the green light.

His scooter was too small to trigger them because there wasn't enough
metal in it to change the loop inductance.

Those super magnets though acted like a huge hunk of metal when changing
the inductance of the loop and triggered the light!



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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Re: [EVDL] Silent vehicles, was Re: Sensors at drive throughs

GW,

do you still have a link for that video or remember
the search key words?

--- GWMobile > wrote:

> Getting back to the sensor thing.
>
> I just saw a video on meracafe that showed a guy
> with a scooter who put
> two neodymiam magent on the bottom of his scooter so
> it would trigger
> the road loops and turn on the green light.
>
> His scooter was too small to trigger them because
> there wasn't enough
> metal in it to change the loop inductance.
>
> Those super magnets though acted like a huge hunk of
> metal when changing
> the inductance of the loop and triggered the light!
>
>
>
> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about
> hurricanes, globalwarming
> and the melting poles.
>
> www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake
> images.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Re: [EVDL] Silent vehicles, was Re: Sensors at drive throughs

Seems like the topic of sound keeps getting repeated
every few months. Here are some of the links I have
saved from prior discussions.

There is an MP3 player that adjusts the volume and
throttle in relation to the accelerator, as in it has
an idle and accelerate settings.
http://www.vroombox.com/

one marketed for bicycles and hybrids from
the http://www.soundofmotion.com/ . It seems
to work with a blutooth and java capable cell, and
their sensor to display speed and acceleration. Also
a sound simulator can be added to perform motorbike
exhaust noise to correspond to acceleration.

And although it is joked about adding playing cards to
wheelspokes, here is aproduct that takes that idea and
amplifies sound in a muffler shaped 'mega'phone
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=231325
impractical for our larger applications but I still
find it amusing

I also believe one member created a resonant mode
charger, but I dont have the link. The thread spoke
about UFO sounds for EVs and the movie Total Recall if
anyone wants to search in the archives.

--- Robert MacDowell wrote:

> [email protected] wrote:
> > [email protected] wrote:
> >
> >> I've seen some discussion as to whether electric
> / hybrid cars need
> >> some form of noise-maker for urban environments
> where pedestrians are
> >> used to being able to hear traffic, including the
> visually impaired.
> >>
> >> I've been toying with the idea of outfitting my
> (future) EV with
> >> speakers. And some soundtracks. Like hoof
> beats. Sleigh bells.
> >> Tie Fighters. I suppose dog panting might be
> taken amiss. X-34
> >> Landspeeder. Etc., etc.
> >>
>
> As a matter of fact... some distant cousins in the
> EV universe have
> solved this problem :)
> http://www.digitrax.com/soundbug.php
> http://www.soundtraxx.com/index.htm
>
> They're for model locomotives, so we'd need a bigger
> speaker... but
> it'll sure sound cool.
>
> > I must have reasonably good karma, because just
> after I posted this the
> > AP did an article on the National Federation for
> the Blind pushing for
> > minimum noise standards for cars:
> >
> >
>
http://money.aol.com/news/articles/_a/blind-people-hybrid-cars-pose-hazard/n20071003012309990002
> >
> > or
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/yvr84q
> >
>
> I don't know. This may not be obvious to folks out
> in automotive
> suburbia... but in cities, pedestrians are often
> crammed cheek to jowl
> with cars that *might* be about to move. It's
> amazing how much you
> depend on your senses to tell the difference.
> Silent drives throw a
> wrench in that, and I've seen sighted people fooled
> by it.
>
> Robert
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>




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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Re: [EVDL] Silent vehicles, was Re: Sensors at drive throughs

Instead of making EV's quieter, the blind should wear a belt that senses all
objects around them in a circle and gives off a beep when it detects a
moving object. They can carry a backpack that houses their batteries or
maybe the batteries to power the device can be put in the cane they use.



gowen wrote:
>
> [email protected] wrote:
>> I've seen some discussion as to whether electric / hybrid cars need
>> some form of noise-maker for urban environments where pedestrians are
>> used to being able to hear traffic, including the visually impaired.
>>
>>
>

--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Sensors-at-drive-throughs-tf4552806s25542.html#a13060239
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Re: [EVDL] Silent vehicles, was Re: Sensors at drive throughs

No pedestrians allowed - although I have seen a couple lately hitchhiking!

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hunter Cook" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 8:52 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Silent vehicles, was Re: Sensors at drive throughs


>> But since the blind (with a white cane) have
>> right-of-way everywhere I can think of
>
> Interstate Highways.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
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>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.39/1044 - Release Date:
> 10/2/2007 11:10 AM
>
>

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Re: [EVDL] Silent vehicles, was Re: Sensors at drive throughs

I've seen a lot of backup sensors in newer car rear bumpers. Anybody know
the range and field of view on something like that? Maybe turn on a noise
maker if something is detected in front? Isn't Volvo or somebody
advertising a collision warning system that might be used to turn on noise?
We wouldn't have to listen to the noise all the time.

Marty

----- Original Message -----
From: "ampaynz1" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 9:13 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Silent vehicles, was Re: Sensors at drive throughs


>
> Instead of making EV's quieter, the blind should wear a belt that senses
> all
> objects around them in a circle and gives off a beep when it detects a
> moving object. They can carry a backpack that houses their batteries or
> maybe the batteries to power the device can be put in the cane they use.
>
>
>
> gowen wrote:
>>
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> I've seen some discussion as to whether electric / hybrid cars need
>>> some form of noise-maker for urban environments where pedestrians are
>>> used to being able to hear traffic, including the visually impaired.
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Sensors-at-drive-throughs-tf4552806s25542.html#a13060239
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Re: [EVDL] Silent vehicles, was Re: Sensors at drive throughs

GWMobile wrote:
> I just saw a video on meracafe that showed a guy with a scooter who put
> two neodymiam magent on the bottom of his scooter so it would trigger
> the road loops and turn on the green light.
>
> His scooter was too small to trigger them because there wasn't enough
> metal in it to change the loop inductance.
>
> Those super magnets though acted like a huge hunk of metal when changing
> the inductance of the loop and triggered the light!

That wouldn't work for the inductive loop type of sensors. I think this
is actually the most common type.

But from an individual's point of view, all that matters is to find a
solution for the particular traffic lights that are giving him a
problem. Maybe the magnets worked for the light near his home.

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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