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Discussion Starter #1
Re: [EVDL] Solar PV was: Dirt to Wheels analysis?

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Discussion Starter #2
Re: [EVDL] Solar PV was: Dirt to Wheels analysis?

>> Then have a
>> grid tie inverter that can be switched in when the EV is charged, so
>> that the surplus energy is not wasted.
>
> And since you're buying one anyway...
>
> That said, I *have* charged my EV directly from a big solar array,
> just for fun. It worked.
>

I charge my EV from a Stirling Dish CSP once...just for fun :)

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Discussion Starter #3
Re: [EVDL] Solar PV was: Dirt to Wheels analysis?

Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>
> I have to say, all this discussion of whether to put PV panels on your
> EV or on the roof of your home seems to be missing the point. Putting
> them in *either* place helps. Efficiency is about the same, so that's
> not the driving force in deciding where to put them. It's going to be
> other factors, like appearance, vandalism, what you can afford, etc.
> that will decide it for you.
>
> Basically, you put them where you need the power, and where they will
> get the most light. That might be in your EV, or at home. If you start
> with your EV, when you run out of space on your car roof, put them on
> your home.
>
> I have PV panels on *both* my house and car. The one on the car (our
> Pruis) is small, and only charges the 12v auxiliary battery. The ones on
> the house power an inverter to push power back into the AC line.
>
>
Yeah... this is the gist of it... either is okay. I have them on both... 5
panels on the topper shell of the pickup (one for the 12V auxiliary, and 4
for the main traction pack -- it should do about 2 miles a day at best, but
looks cool)... and the main array on the carport/garage for the real energy
prodution.
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Discussion Starter #4
Re: [EVDL] Solar PV was: Dirt to Wheels analysis?

Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]>wrote:

> How about using an array that has a DC output that matches the DC
> charge voltage voltage of your EV. Then you don't have any DC-AC-DC
> conversion losses. Mount the array on top of a carport. Then have a
> grid tie inverter that can be switched in when the EV is charged, so
> that the surplus energy is not wasted.
>
> Anybody attempt this?
>
>
I thought about this, but I have yet to see an available MPPT charge
controller that will push 125vdc+ (what I would need)
Usually they are in the 12-24-48-52v range for use with multiple input
voltages (12-600v depending on output)
Of course the other option is to have multiple chargers hooked to individual
parts of the pack, and
separate strings of panels, might prove to be too much of a hassle.
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Discussion Starter #5
Re: [EVDL] Solar PV was: Dirt to Wheels analysis?

yeah.... finding a standard PV MPPT charge controller designed for more than
a 48 volt battery bank is pretty hard, because the NEC requirements for a
battery bank over 48 volts change quite a bit from the lower voltage ones.
I've rarely (not never, but rarely) seen any banks over 48 volts, and it's
hard to find any inverters over 48 volts input. For mine, I have two 12
volt (nominal) panels in series going through a charge controller that
boosts from the 24 volt nominal input to a 48 volt bank, and between the two
setups like this, they can charge a 96 volt bank. Not sure the efficiency
of this setup..... like I said before it's mostly because its cool to have
some onboard.

Z

Dave Hymers <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 9:10 AM, Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]
> >wrote:
>
> > How about using an array that has a DC output that matches the DC
> > charge voltage voltage of your EV. Then you don't have any DC-AC-DC
> > conversion losses. Mount the array on top of a carport. Then have a
> > grid tie inverter that can be switched in when the EV is charged, so
> > that the surplus energy is not wasted.
> >
> > Anybody attempt this?
> >
> >
> I thought about this, but I have yet to see an available MPPT charge
> controller that will push 125vdc+ (what I would need)
> Usually they are in the 12-24-48-52v range for use with multiple input
> voltages (12-600v depending on output)
> Of course the other option is to have multiple chargers hooked to
> individual
> parts of the pack, and
> separate strings of panels, might prove to be too much of a hassle.
> -------------- next part --------------
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Discussion Starter #6
Re: [EVDL] Solar PV was: Dirt to Wheels analysis?

Not to get too far OT, but isn't MPPT just a way of keeping the
voltage and current at a level where their product (watts) is at its
maximum? Is there a well established curve for a particular cell, or
is it a junction of many variables. Is found through a feedback type
PID loop? If so, I don't think it would be too hard to program a PLC
to do that. Then you would design your system so that with even the
lowest light conditions, the voltage would still be above the desired
pack voltage. Then with a efficient small DC-DC, you could drop the
voltage down just a few percent to charge your EV. You should be able
to achieve >95% efficiency

Not off-the-shelf, but definitely possible and more efficient than DC-
AC-DC.

Zeke Yewdall wrote:

> yeah.... finding a standard PV MPPT charge controller designed for
> more than
> a 48 volt battery bank is pretty hard, because the NEC requirements
> for a
> battery bank over 48 volts change quite a bit from the lower voltage
> ones.
> I've rarely (not never, but rarely) seen any banks over 48 volts,
> and it's
> hard to find any inverters over 48 volts input. For mine, I have
> two 12
> volt (nominal) panels in series going through a charge controller that
> boosts from the 24 volt nominal input to a 48 volt bank, and between
> the two
> setups like this, they can charge a 96 volt bank. Not sure the
> efficiency
> of this setup..... like I said before it's mostly because its cool
> to have
> some onboard.
>
> Z
>
> On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 1:27 PM, Dave Hymers <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 9:10 AM, Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]
>>> wrote:
>>
>>> How about using an array that has a DC output that matches the DC
>>> charge voltage voltage of your EV. Then you don't have any DC-AC-DC
>>> conversion losses. Mount the array on top of a carport. Then
>>> have a
>>> grid tie inverter that can be switched in when the EV is charged, so
>>> that the surplus energy is not wasted.
>>>
>>> Anybody attempt this?
>>>
>>>
>> I thought about this, but I have yet to see an available MPPT charge
>> controller that will push 125vdc+ (what I would need)
>> Usually they are in the 12-24-48-52v range for use with multiple
>> input
>> voltages (12-600v depending on output)
>> Of course the other option is to have multiple chargers hooked to
>> individual
>> parts of the pack, and
>> separate strings of panels, might prove to be too much of a hassle.
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> A

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Discussion Starter #7
Re: [EVDL] Solar PV was: Dirt to Wheels analysis?

Voltage is mostly a function of cell temperature, with a rather weak
response to light intensity. Amperage is fairly linear wrt light
intensity. I am not sure of the algorithm used to find MPPT in all
cases but doing an IV sweep is one method, and doing differential
voltage changes and watching for wattage change is another. The
second method can be fooled by local maxima though, which can occur on
an array with partial shading.

On Wednesday, December 22, 2010, Roger Heuckeroth
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Not to get too far OT, but isn't MPPT just a way of keeping the
> voltage and current at a level where their product (watts) is at its
> maximum? Is there a well established curve for a particular cell, or
> is it a junction of many variables. Is found through a feedback type
> PID loop? If so, I don't think it would be too hard to program a PLC
> to do that. Then you would design your system so that with even the
> lowest light conditions, the voltage would still be above the desired
> pack voltage. Then with a efficient small DC-DC, you could drop the
> voltage down just a few percent to charge your EV. You should be able
> to achieve >95% efficiency
>
> Not off-the-shelf, but definitely possible and more efficient than DC-
> AC-DC.
>
>
Zeke Yewdall wrote:
>
>> yeah.... finding a standard PV MPPT charge controller designed for
>> more than
>> a 48 volt battery bank is pretty hard, because the NEC requirements
>> for a
>> battery bank over 48 volts change quite a bit from the lower voltage
>> ones.
>> I've rarely (not never, but rarely) seen any banks over 48 volts,
>> and it's
>> hard to find any inverters over 48 volts input. For mine, I have
>> two 12
>> volt (nominal) panels in series going through a charge controller that
>> boosts from the 24 volt nominal input to a 48 volt bank, and between
>> the two
>> setups like this, they can charge a 96 volt bank. Not sure the
>> efficiency
>> of this setup..... like I said before it's mostly because its cool
>> to have
>> some onboard.
>>
>> Z
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 1:27 PM, Dave Hymers <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 9:10 AM, Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]=
om
>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> How about using an array that has a DC output that matches the DC
>>>> charge voltage voltage of your EV. Then you don't have any DC-AC-DC
>>>> conversion losses. Mount the array on top of a carport. Then
>>>> have a
>>>> grid tie inverter that can be switched in when the EV is charged, so
>>>> that the surplus energy is not wasted.
>>>>
>>>> Anybody attempt this?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I thought about this, but I have yet to see an available MPPT charge
>>> controller that will push 125vdc+ (what I would need)
>>> Usually they are in the 12-24-48-52v range for use with multiple
>>> input
>>> voltages (12-600v depending on output)
>>> Of course the other option is to have multiple chargers hooked to
>>> individual
>>> parts of the pack, and
>>> separate strings of panels, might prove to be too much of a hassle.
>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>> A
>
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>

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Discussion Starter #8
Re: [EVDL] Solar PV was: Dirt to Wheels analysis?

I have run my 24V Weller soldering iron from one 24V 108W
panel just for fun and because it was near where I need to
use the iron and the outlet was not.

The most practical problem of carrying panels on the EV
is not the added weight or power conversion - it is easy to
solve that.
What is much harder is to actually place the EV in full sunlight
and I do not mean whether the sun shines or not, because you
cannot influence that, but I mean whether there is a parking
place without shade.
As soon as you go into many dense cities, not only do buildings
and many other things obstruct the sun in the street, but most =

available vehicle parking is in an enclosed garage. =


I know there are many US cities where a car is never inside,
because there is either on-street or driveway-parking as the
garage is used to store stuff, not cars, but that is not
typical the situation in other countries or even as soon as
you get to higher density such as San Francisco for example.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behal=
f Of Evan Tuer
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 9:57 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar PV was: Dirt to Wheels analysis?

On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]> =
wrote:
> How about using an array that has a DC output that matches the DC =

> charge voltage voltage of your EV.
> Then you don't have any DC-AC-DC
> conversion losses. Mount the array on top of a carport.

This isn't the most efficient way to do it. You need to match the peak pow=
er point of the panels, which varies according to solar incidence, temperat=
ure, etc.

Grid connect inverters have this functionality, so it would be more efficie=
nt to use one and charge your EV from the AC current, using its normal char=
ger.

This is also more convenient since the car will charge in a predictable tim=
e.

> Then have a
> grid tie inverter that can be switched in when the EV is charged, so =

> that the surplus energy is not wasted.

And since you're buying one anyway...

That said, I *have* charged my EV directly from a big solar array, just for=
fun. It worked.

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| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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Discussion Starter #9
Re: [EVDL] Solar PV was: Dirt to Wheels analysis?

Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 12/23/2010 6:21 AM, Cor van de Water wrote:
>> Hi Lee,
>> Sorry, but the output *voltage* of a solar
>> panel will typically go *down* with higher
>> solar light levels, because the output
>> *current* is linear with irradiation, while
>> the output *voltage* is dependent on temperature.
>
> If you keep the current the same, then voltage rises as light level
> rises. The voltage only falls at higher light levels when you have a
> MPPT, because it is increasing the current at high light levels.

I agree with Cor, the no-load voltage (and the MPP voltage) both fall
as the temperature increases.

And the temperature normally increases when the light level does
(though perhaps not in Minnesota?) :)

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Discussion Starter #10
Re: [EVDL] Solar PV was: Dirt to Wheels analysis?

I have found that a solar passive systems works better to heat the EV =

directly then either using power from the onboard power. I also use the =

solar passive on my house which passes the heat directly into the house fro=
m =

the sun which is effected down to a low sun angle of 10 degrees.

This is done by using a window that the glass is design for passing the sun =

heat at a sun angle of 10 to 30 degrees which we get here in the northerner =

country on 21 DEC. Above 30 degrees, the sun rays are then deflected back =

which is the summer position.

You can increase the sun passive energy into a compartment you want to heat =

by opening up the curtains and pulling down a dark green shade. The averag=
e =

btur's gain is about 1150 Btu's for a six hour period from 9.00 am to 3.00 =

pm per one square foot of this material.

I design the solar passive system into my EV by making a tight fitting glas=
s =

hatch back that covers the entire bed of my El Camino. The glass area is 4 =

feet by 6 feet which is 24 square feet which is right over the battery box =

which has a dark blue marine carpet on it. The sides and bottom of the =

battery box is insulated using two layers of Blue Dow Foam.

I drive to the Hill Top Caf=E9 every morning just when the sun breaks the =

horizon and park the EV with this glass panel facing the sun. This battery =

compartment ranges from 65 to 70 F before I leave my house and when park =

outside at 0 F. for about a hour, this compartment temperature will raise t=
o =

about 80 F. when the ambient temperature is about 0 F.

Using this method, I do not have to turn on any heaters during these =

conditions which save a trip from either a REGEN system and/or from the mai=
n =

batteries.

Roland



----- Original Message ----- =

From: "Cor van de Water" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar PV was: Dirt to Wheels analysis?


I have run my 24V Weller soldering iron from one 24V 108W
panel just for fun and because it was near where I need to
use the iron and the outlet was not.

The most practical problem of carrying panels on the EV
is not the added weight or power conversion - it is easy to
solve that.
What is much harder is to actually place the EV in full sunlight
and I do not mean whether the sun shines or not, because you
cannot influence that, but I mean whether there is a parking
place without shade.
As soon as you go into many dense cities, not only do buildings
and many other things obstruct the sun in the street, but most
available vehicle parking is in an enclosed garage.

I know there are many US cities where a car is never inside,
because there is either on-street or driveway-parking as the
garage is used to store stuff, not cars, but that is not
typical the situation in other countries or even as soon as
you get to higher density such as San Francisco for example.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behal=
f =

Of Evan Tuer
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 9:57 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar PV was: Dirt to Wheels analysis?

On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]> =

wrote:
> How about using an array that has a DC output that matches the DC
> charge voltage voltage of your EV.
> Then you don't have any DC-AC-DC
> conversion losses. Mount the array on top of a carport.

This isn't the most efficient way to do it. You need to match the peak =

power point of the panels, which varies according to solar incidence, =

temperature, etc.

Grid connect inverters have this functionality, so it would be more =

efficient to use one and charge your EV from the AC current, using its =

normal charger.

This is also more convenient since the car will charge in a predictable =

time.

> Then have a
> grid tie inverter that can be switched in when the EV is charged, so
> that the surplus energy is not wasted.

And since you're buying one anyway...

That said, I *have* charged my EV directly from a big solar array, just for =

fun. It worked.

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_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 
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