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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Re: [EVDL] Soneil chargers, was Re: Top-up Charger

Hi Dave,

I sent an email to Soniel asking them to reply with the temperature range
the 1212SR is designed to operate. I also asked that a Soniel Rep. chat
with me about how to dissipate heat built up in Soneil chargers to keep
them from becoming unusable.

These chargers' case is not unlike a laptop AC adapter, a solid piece of
black plastic with an AC cord going in, and a DC cord going out with a
LED showing on one side displaying the SOC (red-yellow-green LED on).

They could have some ideas on how to dissapate the built up heat in
these chargers when the ambient air temperatures are high. Or perhaps
they could offer a heat sink -able case as an option to resolve this
overheating problem.


. ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
brucedp.150m.com
*Originator of the above ASCII art

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Re: [EVDL] Soneil chargers, was Re: Top-up Charger

The plastic case is probably part of their
safety, I mean the protection against touching HV.
I have always liked Meanwell power supplies.
They are not the cheapest brand, but the fact alone
that they spec their input at AC as well as DC is
interesting enough, also they have "open frame"
supplies which allow you to add your own cooling
solution, such as tunneling air across them when
you build a rack full of them.

For the Soneil - I guess it depends whether there
is still warranty on them and whether you can
open the case without destroying it
(many laptop charger style bricks cannot be
opened, it plastic case is glued or more commonly
ultrasonic welded shut.
If you need to open them anyway to provide the
cooling to make them last, then there is less
concern for the case of course.
Many power supplies I have seen in this form factor
have a rather solid alu heatsink following the
interior of the brick with the power transistor
(and sometimes also the output diode) insulated
from it.
Opening it and mouting it on a flat (non-conducting)
surface, preferably with standoffs to avoid stressing
the PCB too much - possibly still using the bottom
of the case with holes drilled through where there
are holes in the PCB to hold it in the enclosure,
then if needed adding fan(s) to blow air over the
open supplies will greatly reduce the heatsink-to-
ambient thermal resistance.
Please note that this will not do much for the
temp delta between the actual part and heatsink,
so at best you can reduce the heatsink temp and
make the unit run cooler and last longer, it is
not a good way to increase its spec, so do not try
to get more current from it or run it at lower than
spec input voltage...

Finally, do make sure to protect against access
as you will now have live voltage with on one
side the incoming 110/240V AC and at the other
side your full pack DC voltage.
Also consider whether the device is fused and add
one to each charger if it is not there.
I'd expect a charger to have a fuse, but a smart
power supply might come without fuse because it
is already protected against over-current, so it
might do entirely without fuse...

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of brucedp4
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 12:25 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Soneil chargers, was Re: Top-up Charger


Hi Dave,

I sent an email to Soniel asking them to reply with the temperature
range the 1212SR is designed to operate. I also asked that a Soniel Rep.
chat with me about how to dissipate heat built up in Soneil chargers to
keep them from becoming unusable.

These chargers' case is not unlike a laptop AC adapter, a solid piece of
black plastic with an AC cord going in, and a DC cord going out with a
LED showing on one side displaying the SOC (red-yellow-green LED on).

They could have some ideas on how to dissapate the built up heat in
these chargers when the ambient air temperatures are high. Or perhaps
they could offer a heat sink -able case as an option to resolve this
overheating problem.


. ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
brucedp.150m.com
*Originator of the above ASCII art

--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Soneil-char
gers-was-Re-Top-up-Charger-tp3309742p3310258.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Re: [EVDL] Soneil chargers, was Re: Top-up Charger

Cor had some good suggestions on this.

Most of these sealed power supplies are intended to operate with lots of
free air around them, at an ambient temperature around 72 deg.F (what
you find inside a heated and cooled house). They overheat if put in a
box, packed together with other hot devices, operated in the sun, used
outdoors on hot days, etc.

I had some 24v scooter chargers that were built like this. One failed
from overheating (being used in the sun). I cut it open with a hacksaw
and fixed it. I put it back together in a metal box, being careful to
insulate the board from the box. The metal is basically "transparent" to
the heat, so it ran much cooler and has survived so far.

I also had an Ault charger with the same difficulties. On that one, I
drilled a dozen 1/4" holes in the case to allow air circulation, being
careful to just *barely* go through the case so I didn't hit anything
inside.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Re: [EVDL] Soneil chargers, was Re: Top-up Charger

I once had a cheap aux battery charger that I needed to
recharge a dead truck battery (the alternator control
wire had come loose, so it did not charge and the truck
was driven until dead... I did not blame them, this was
some months after Katrina in the beautiful but very much
devastated area of Waveland, MS near Bay St Louis and I
was volunteering with CityTeam who worked there to help
people rebuilding their homes, while living off donations.
This truck was one such donation.
Anyway, I fixed that wire and after (again) jumping the
truck, it ran beautifully but I did not want to waste the
gas to fully charge the battery again.
So I got that cheap charger, propped the hood open and
soon the charger was cranking away on that empty truck
battery. The sun came out and it got hot... By the time
the battery had a decent charge, the charger was in not
so good state. The case had slightly melted and sagged a
bit. The charging Amp meter also had melted and was now
permanently pointing to the point where the truck had
been charging for some time.... It still worked, but the
it was definitely not up to the task of charging while
sitting in noontime sun while it was already above 100F.

BTW, Ault is now SL Power, they are a supplier for us.

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] on behalf of Lee Hart
Sent: Thu 2/17/2011 8:28 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Soneil chargers, was Re: Top-up Charger

Cor had some good suggestions on this.

Most of these sealed power supplies are intended to operate with lots of
free air around them, at an ambient temperature around 72 deg.F (what
you find inside a heated and cooled house). They overheat if put in a
box, packed together with other hot devices, operated in the sun, used
outdoors on hot days, etc.

I had some 24v scooter chargers that were built like this. One failed
from overheating (being used in the sun). I cut it open with a hacksaw
and fixed it. I put it back together in a metal box, being careful to
insulate the board from the box. The metal is basically "transparent" to
the heat, so it ran much cooler and has survived so far.

I also had an Ault charger with the same difficulties. On that one, I
drilled a dozen 1/4" holes in the case to allow air circulation, being
careful to just *barely* go through the case so I didn't hit anything
inside.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

_______________________________________________
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| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Re: [EVDL] Soneil chargers, was Re: Top-up Charger

et al,

I got a response back from a Soneil Sales Rep. Ignoring the self-
promotional sale pitch wording, I found he stated the charger is
designed to operate up to 140F. Also, he said the 1212SR model has a
built-in fan to keep it cool and operational.

Looking at some images of the 1212SR, yup there are openings for air
flow. I mentioned to him that I did not see any mounting holes
http://www.electricrider.com/chargers/images/3610srf.jpg
in the case so we can mount their charger to a large heat sink plate
to keep their chargers cooler.

I replied to the Soneil Sales Rep asking him to connect us with a
Support Engineer so they could suggest ideas to keep the unit cooler
when the ambient temperature is so hot it causes the unit overheat
and be unusable.

I also gave them an image link as an example of how we (EV people)
are using their product
http://www.econogics.com/Soneil/son914-1.jpg
where multiple chargers are used to charge a high voltage pack.


With some research, I did find an image of
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_BC-CC9cI2Ys/SivUGUlNliI/AAAAAAAACow/eR-1s_AI-4U/s320/soneil_innards1.jpg
a Soneil charger innards. It is as COr has said, they have an internal
heat sink the components are mounted on.

Also, it seems Soneil chargers have other issues
http://evdl.org/archive/#nabble-td458759
Perhaps, until it is known that Soneil has resolved those issues,
I will back off considering using them, and look else where for my
EV wish-list's level 1 chargers.

{brucedp.150m.com}
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Re: [EVDL] Soneil chargers, was Re: Top-up Charger

All,
This is an old thread, but my boy recently put up some more pics on
our flickr site, so as promised, here is the one of the 16 Soneil
chargers in the RX-7:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbevs/5603900099/in/set-72157626338518083
I used two aluminum square and two aluminum U pieces and sandwiched
the chargers between them using five 1/4-20 threaded rods. I've since
added a muffin fan on each side to keep them cool in the summer.
He also added an EVents set, all of which can be accessed from:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbevs/sets/
--
Suck Amps,
Dave "Battery Boy" Hawkins
Check out our website!
http://bbevs.com/

On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 2:13 PM, David (Battery Boy) Hawkins wrote:
> Bruce (and All),
> Finally got caught up with the list, so I'm going to try and post more often...
>
> I've been enjoying your posts from news feeds and comments. Just like old times!
>
> Regarding Soneil chargers, I've posted in the past about using 16 of
> the Soneil 12V 1212SR chargers in the RX-7, back when I switched from
> floodies to AGM's. At the time, I got a sweet deal on them through
> another EV'er, so they ended up being cheaper than a 192V charger, not
> to mention I would have needed regulators or a BMS. Although the RX-7
> has gone to car heaven (auto recycler), I came across some old
> pictures of the charger rack that I need to put up on the website.
> Twelve of the chargers are now charging what is left of the car's last
> pack in my pickup. I agree with your comments about them below, and my
> only complaint about them is that they need an external fan(s), as
> they get hot in the summer and loose their minds!
> --
> Suck Amps,
> Dave (Battery Boy) Hawkins
> Check out our website!
> http://bbevs.com/
>
>> Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 13:54:08 -0800 (PST)
>> From: brucedp4
>>
> <snip>
>> Sidebar
>> I still have a couple of the Dual Pro chargers, and they still have
>> not failed. However, I recently bought a Soniel 12V charger I am
>> quite pleased with. Its a very good bang-for-the-buck for the
>> smarts, isolation, and high pfc you get
>> [ http://soneil.com/products.html ]
> <snippage>
>

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