[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] truth in advertising (Electric Blue auto convertions)

Gee, ElectricBlue, good idea..."tell it like it is, no need to hide
things". So why did you take on the conversion of our truck when we stated
our requirement for a vehicle that has at least a 50-mile range at highway
(at least 55 mph) speeds? It hasn't done that, especially once the temps.
dropped here in October (there is no battery heating/insulation system on
the truck).
It was recommended to us that we replace the dual cycle, marine
batteries with deep cycle, gel lead acid batteries. The truck sits in our
driveway. We have used the truck to commute to work exactly one week since
conversion completion in May of 2009 ( 28-mile round trip, and it limped
home halfway through the drive home). It's a huge disappointment, and a
financial burden.
"More of the "screw you , we'll build what we want. and deliver any
piece of shit we can" attitude. BUT I was expecting this from them.. just
another day at manufacturing land "
Former aficionados of electric cars


----- Original Message ----- >
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 15:43:12 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Electric Blue auto convertions <[email protected]>
> Subject: [EVDL] truth in advertising
> To: ev <[email protected]>
> Message-ID:
> <[email protected]m>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> What I was typing about is the LEAF is said to get 100 miles range.. will
> it.. yes! at 22 MPH. most people looking to buy a car think an electric
> will do what a gas engine will. They wont. I have people come to my shop
> and want a conversion and tell me they have to go 70 miles a day, I tell
> them YES, but at 25 MPH. that shuts them up.
> What this is, is tell it like it is, no need to hide things. Is my 76 Nova
> electric faster than a 12 cylinder Astin Martin Vantage??? Hell yes, I
> pased one doing 35 MPH, I was doing 45, now...at that point I WAS faster
> than the AM V . did I lie?? not exactly , did I tell the truth?? almost
> LOLOL
>
> were reading claims about how much range is needed,I have always said
> range is not important if you only drive 15 miles a day. Madison Av will
> always try and bend the truth to sell a product, thats what they do..feed
> a line of crap to the public and hope they fall for it. how many of you
> guys fell for gas saver devices that were selling all over the place in
> the 70s," clip this on your fuel line and the negitive ions will increase
> your gas milage by 50%" LOLOLOL I got your negative ions, swinging LOLOL .
> Just tell the public what the damn thing will do , at what speeds, and for
> how long ...Wait !!!!! that would be telling the truth , we cant have that
> in the auto industry
>
> ev-blue.com
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20100923/dd3e1eb8/attachment.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
>

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

 

[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] truth in advertising (Electric Blue auto convertions)

Donn Kuntz wrote:
> Gee, ElectricBlue, good idea..."tell it like it is, no need to hide
> things". So why did you take on the conversion of our truck when we stated
> our requirement for a vehicle that has at least a 50-mile range at highway
> (at least 55 mph) speeds? It hasn't done that, especially once the temps.
> dropped here in October (there is no battery heating/insulation system on
> the truck).

This is a better place to try to get your problems solved than to vent.
It seems unlikely that Wayne would have touted a lead acid conversion
as capable of 50 miles day in, day out. Do you have 24 golf cart
batteries? I think you would need around 40 GC batteries to achieve
the range you need. If you have lurked here long, you know that there
are many lithium conversions that do 60-100 miles and very few to none
lead acids that do 50 miles.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 12 days 15 hours 10 minutes

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

 

[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] truth in advertising (Electric Blue auto convertions)

Willie McKemie wrote:
>

Donn Kuntz wrote:
>
>> Gee, ElectricBlue, good idea..."tell it like it is, no need to hide
>> things". So why did you take on the conversion of our truck when we stated
>> our requirement for a vehicle that has at least a 50-mile range at highway
>> (at least 55 mph) speeds? It hasn't done that, especially once the temps.
>> dropped here in October (there is no battery heating/insulation system on
>> the truck).
>>
>
> This is a better place to try to get your problems solved than to vent.
> It seems unlikely that Wayne would have touted a lead acid conversion
> as capable of 50 miles day in, day out. Do you have 24 golf cart
> batteries? I think you would need around 40 GC batteries to achieve
> the range you need.

> If you have lurked here long, you know that there
> are many lithium conversions that do 60-100 miles and very few to none
> lead acids that do 50 miles.
>
Really?
http://evalbum.com/3436
http://evalbum.com/3258
http://evalbum.com/3215
http://evalbum.com/3081
http://evalbum.com/2941

That's 5/8 of homemade S-10s that get 50 miles from just the first page
of the Chevy conversions on the EV Album.

When I hear "marine batteries", I think he got sold a lemon.

Donn, if you replace your batteries with 24 T-125 batteries, you should
get your desired range (if you have an S-10 or equivalent, you didn't say).

Cory



_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

 

[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] truth in advertising (Electric Blue auto convertions)

On 24 Sep 2010 at 19:12, Willie McKemie wrote:

> If you have lurked here long, you know that there
> are many lithium conversions that do 60-100 miles and very few to none
> lead acids that do 50 miles.

It's very easy to make a lead battery EV that does 50 miles with ample range
to spare. All you have to do is make 50% of the vehicle weight batteries.
Having good aerodynamics and low rolling resistance - LRR or RRR tires
inflated to well above the doorjamb sticker values, brakes that release
completely, properly adjusted and lubricated bearings, zero toe alignment -
will make a big difference too.

Lurking in the above paragraph are some hints on what Donn might check in
his truck.

The dual-use marine batteries are another matter. Enough of them might make
the required range for a few dozen cycles, but they'll die a quick and
unhappy death hauling a heavy truck around. I'm assuming we're talking
about ordinary flooded 12v marine batteries now; some AGM types might
survive.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

 

[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] truth in advertising (Electric Blue auto convertions)

I've seen this truck. A Toyota Tacoma. The reason for 12 volt
batteries instead if T145s or such is that it has an AC drive....AC55
perhaps. I was pretty suprised that anyone would use marine deep
cycles for it since they aren't really deep cycle batteries, and don't
like currents over 100a sustained either. I was thinking that
Concorde agms would work, and I just saw a jeep Cherokee conversion
with the AC55 and Concorde agms last weekend that the owner said had
about 50 mile range iirc. If you want me to try to get you in contact
with that owner to discuss how his setup is working before deciding
what to do to yours, Donn, let me know ( or maybe he'll respond).

Z

EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 24 Sep 2010 at 19:12, Willie McKemie wrote:
>
>> If you have lurked here long, you know that there
>> are many lithium conversions that do 60-100 miles and very few to none
>> lead acids that do 50 miles.
>
> It's very easy to make a lead battery EV that does 50 miles with ample ra=
nge
> to spare. All you have to do is make 50% of the vehicle weight batteri=
es.
> Having good aerodynamics and low rolling resistance - LRR or RRR tires
> inflated to well above the doorjamb sticker values, brakes that release
> completely, properly adjusted and lubricated bearings, zero toe alignment=
-
> will make a big difference too.
>
> Lurking in the above paragraph are some hints on what Donn might check in
> his truck.
>
> The dual-use marine batteries are another matter. Enough of them might=
make
> the required range for a few dozen cycles, but they'll die a quick and
> unhappy death hauling a heavy truck around. I'm assuming we're talking
> about ordinary flooded 12v marine batteries now; some AGM types might
> survive.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =
=3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =
=3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =
=3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

 

[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] truth in advertising (Electric Blue auto convertions)

Cory Cross wrote:
> Willie McKemie wrote:
> > On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 10:11:37AM -0600, Donn Kuntz wrote:
> >
> >> Gee, ElectricBlue, good idea..."tell it like it is, no need to hide
> >> things". So why did you take on the conversion of our truck when we stated
> >> our requirement for a vehicle that has at least a 50-mile range at highway
> >> (at least 55 mph) speeds? It hasn't done that, especially once the temps.
> >> dropped here in October (there is no battery heating/insulation system on
> >> the truck).
> >>
> >
> > This is a better place to try to get your problems solved than to vent.
> > It seems unlikely that Wayne would have touted a lead acid conversion
> > as capable of 50 miles day in, day out. Do you have 24 golf cart
> > batteries? I think you would need around 40 GC batteries to achieve
> > the range you need.
>
> > If you have lurked here long, you know that there
> > are many lithium conversions that do 60-100 miles and very few to none
> > lead acids that do 50 miles.
> >
> Really?
> http://evalbum.com/3436
> http://evalbum.com/3258
> http://evalbum.com/3215
> http://evalbum.com/3081
> http://evalbum.com/2941

"day in, day out"

If there is anyone out there doing 50 mile daily commutes on lead acid,
let's hear from them.

Here is one that probably could have advertised 50 mile range but
failed to do more than about at year of 30 mile commutes:
http://www.evalbum.com/1896
Incidentally, that truck is for sale. $6K, I believe, with a weak
pack.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 13 days 2 hours 32 minutes

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

 

[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] truth in advertising (Electric Blue auto convertions)

Take the range numbers on evalbum with a very large grain of salt. Many of
them are just wags, wild ass guesses, made by the owner before the vehicle
was even running. Some list almost the same range at 55 mph as at 30 mph,
like 60 mile range at 30 mph and 50 mile range at 55, which would require an
extremely low drag coefficient to achieve. I would also like to see how many
are actually regularly commuting 50 miles at 55 mph with lead acid, not
those that think they could.
--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-truth-in-advertising-Electric-Blue-auto-convertions-tp2579112p2713481.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

 

[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] truth in advertising (Electric Blue auto convertions)

My truck had a 34 kWh pack (312V 110Ah) and I have taken it
up to 63 mostly freeway miles though my usual commute was
only about 22 miles without adding errands and other stuff.
So, I agree that it will not be easy to get good life from
lead-acids *and* draw them down more than 50% each day, so
you see many EV'ers use their vehicles more in the sweet spot
of 10-20 mile commutes, but I know it has been done - my
memory does not want to give specifics at this time, but I
do recall a discussion more than once about people doing a
long commute where they barely made it on some (colder)
days, but I would have to start digging through the
archive to bring those cases up. Certainly it is not
the strength of lead-acid and I expect that with Li-Ion
there will be many more EV'ers doing 50 mile commutes.

Some vehicles on the EV Album use meters to record their
consumption, so it depends which vehicle you are looking at
if the data is reliable or not...

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of tomw
Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 6:58 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] truth in advertising (Electric Blue auto
convertions)


Take the range numbers on evalbum with a very large grain of salt. Many
of them are just wags, wild ass guesses, made by the owner before the
vehicle was even running. Some list almost the same range at 55 mph as
at 30 mph, like 60 mile range at 30 mph and 50 mile range at 55, which
would require an extremely low drag coefficient to achieve. I would also
like to see how many are actually regularly commuting 50 miles at 55 mph
with lead acid, not those that think they could.
--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-truth-in
-advertising-Electric-Blue-auto-convertions-tp2579112p2713481.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

 

[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] truth in advertising (Electric Blue auto convertions)

Willie McKemie wrote:
> "day in, day out"
>
> If there is anyone out there doing 50 mile daily commutes on lead acid,
> let's hear from them.
>
Sadly, I don't know anyone who commutes 50 miles/day in any vehicle, so
I won't be able to help disprove this one...

Hmm, was Red Beastie a commuter? Would be the exception that proves the
rule, however.


_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

 

[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] truth in advertising (Electric Blue auto convertions)

Cory Cross wrote:

> Willie McKemie wrote:
> > "day in, day out"
> >
> > If there is anyone out there doing 50 mile daily commutes on lead
> > acid, let's hear from them.
> >
> Sadly, I don't know anyone who commutes 50 miles/day in any
> vehicle, so I won't be able to help disprove this one...

OK, its still not quite 50mi, but Lynn Adams (not sure he's still on this list), commuted 44mi each way (charging at work) at highway speeds daily in his Honda Civic conversion using 8V floodies:

<http://www.evalbum.com/379.html>

Cheers,

Roger.



_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

 

[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] truth in advertising (Electric Blue auto convertions)

>
>
> > Really?
> > http://evalbum.com/3436
> > http://evalbum.com/3258
> > http://evalbum.com/3215
> > http://evalbum.com/3081
> > http://evalbum.com/2941
>
> "day in, day out"
>
> If there is anyone out there doing 50 mile daily commutes on lead acid,
> let's hear from them.
>
> Here is one that probably could have advertised 50 mile range but
> failed to do more than about at year of 30 mile commutes:
> http://www.evalbum.com/1896
> Incidentally, that truck is for sale. $6K, I believe, with a weak
> pack.


3 of the trucks in the first list have batteries with 200ah+ 20hr rates and
the one listed below that has a 145ah pack.
apples to oranges ?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20100927/bd7ae34f/attachment.html
_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

 

[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] truth in advertising (Electric Blue auto convertions)

That's a full 38 miles over a 50 mile daily commute -- that's 88 miles!

It's not 50 miles per charge, but it absolutely covers "50 mile daily
commute"... the initial question...

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 2:23 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] truth in advertising (Electric Blue auto
convertions)

Cory Cross wrote:

> Willie McKemie wrote:
> > "day in, day out"
> >
> > If there is anyone out there doing 50 mile daily commutes on lead
> > acid, let's hear from them.
> >
> Sadly, I don't know anyone who commutes 50 miles/day in any
> vehicle, so I won't be able to help disprove this one...

OK, its still not quite 50mi, but Lynn Adams (not sure he's still on
this list), commuted 44mi each way (charging at work) at highway speeds
daily in his Honda Civic conversion using 8V floodies:

<http://www.evalbum.com/379.html>

Cheers,

Roger.



_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

 

[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] truth in advertising (Electric Blue auto convertions)

It seems to me that the more money spent on batteries the happier you're
going to be with your EV, lead or lithium. duh.
Its the one area where no skimping is allowed.

Besides that, can we get some discussion going on about driving habits ?
give the same EV to 2 different drivers
and you will see differing ranges on the same test track.

Personally if you know you're driving to squeeze the maximum range from your
vehicle, keep the amps down !!
if you want it all at once, speed and range, then pony up the cash for the
best rated batteries you can get.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20100927/77c014a0/attachment.html
_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

 

[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] truth in advertising (Electric Blue auto convertions)

>
>
>
> "day in, day out"
>
> If there is anyone out there doing 50 mile daily commutes on lead acid,
> let's hear from them.
>
>
during the athletic season, my commute is 52 miles round trip to the school
where I coach. I have a pack of 24x6v flooded lead acid batteries. I have
10k miles on them now in almost 2 years of driving. Driving conservatively
at 55 mph (42 of the 52 miles are highway) yields about 220 wh/mi with my
vehicle. I charge only at home (no onboard charger).

In the spring/summer/fall, the drive is no problem. I can actually drive at
speeds in the low 60's without problems.

The first winter (if you want to call it 'winter' in Phoenix) with a brand
new pack wasn't a problem.

The second winter with a year old pack seemed cutting it close. Even when
sticking to my 55 mph limit, there were a few times where the voltage
started getting low, but I was probably around 80% DOD. Highs were in the
50's when this happened, and I don't have any battery heaters or insulation.

I'm planning on adding some heating and maybe some basic insulation to make
it through the 3rd winter.


I think it's pretty easy to use lead and get a 50 mi range. But, will you
still get 50 mi in the middle of winter after half the cycle life is used
up? I haven't pulled all the stops (lack of heating and insulation), but
I'd say it's pretty tough. That said, I'm excited for lithiums!

Joe
http://www.evalbum.com/2358
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20100927/5c4ca805/attachment.html
_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

 

[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] truth in advertising (Electric Blue auto convertions)

Fantastic conversion Joe!
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20100928/8353b4bc/attachment.html
_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev