DIY Electric Car Forums banner

1 - 13 of 13 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Re: [EVDL] TS chemistry Was A123 chem

Cycle life on a TS and a A123 are speced the same.

What we get will be Very interesting.

Madman

----- Original Message ----- =

From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: TS chemistry Was A123 chem


but are they really cheap? as compared to estimated A123 prices and
known PHET prices
and would A123 not last several times longer?

Dan

Jukka J=E4rvinen wrote:
> Here's some cycling data for all of you on list.
>
> Test subject is TS LFP-30 cell. 1st patch ever made.
>
> 1600th cycle just got this morning and still holding 69% of the
> original capacity.
>
> Now .. All cycles are 1C (from original capacity) charge and discharge.
>
> Discharged to 2V and charged to 4,30V on each cycle.
>
> So 100% what can be taken out in any condition.. I would say.
>
> How's that for the cheapo Chinese stuff.. ??
>
> I'll have the internal resistance numbers coming up later so that
> might affect on the 69% somewhat.
>
> -Jukka
>
>
> Rich Rudman kirjoitti:
>> I have 4 of the TS-LFP40aha on cycle life testing.
>>
>> So far very good results.
>> I am trying to hold them to the %70 DOD spec that yields a 3000 cycle
>> life
>> curve.
>>
>> I have Mk3Lion Regs on each cell. I have the top set to 4.01 volts
>> and the
>> floor I ran 20 cycles with a floor of 2.5 volts. The yielded about
>> %98 DOD
>> on all 20 cycles.
>> Damn!! Those cells sure make cheap lead acid look like junk!!
>>
>> I am now runnig with a floor of 2.80 volts per cell. I hope to
>> restrict the
>> Ahrs to aproximateley 32. This is the %80 DOD point, When these
>> cycles are
>> run, Then I am upping the voltage floor to 3.00 volts and hoping the
>> results
>> will be 28 amp hours, Then I am going to run them for ever!
>> I expect that by the time I get to cycle 2000 the added shop heat
>> will be a
>> welcome addition to the heating budget at the Power shop. Right now
>> .. it's
>> a crime to be making any heat in hot shop in August. Doing PFC40 liquid
>> coole chargers.. on a 80 Deg day, Well that wasted heat is not doing
>> anybody
>> any good.
>>
>> The set up is 4 cells in series, for a 12 volt..aka 16 volt pack, I
>> have 4
>> modified MK3 Digi regs doing data collection, and Reg/charger feed
>> back for
>> the high and low Gard voltage feature. The Cycles.. is a 50 amp class
>> charger set up as a Windloader, and a PFC30 Hanger Queen doing 30
>> amps of
>> charge power....Cute pile of equipment, finally earning it's keep.
>>
>> The Regs do dissapate and equalize the cells when they Reg at 4.01
>> volts,
>> This keep the pack equalized on every charge off state. The cycler is
>> programmed to hold peak volts of 16.00 until the amps taper to 5 amps
>> on the
>> charge side. And.. the regs hold any one cell in line as well as the
>> charger.
>> On discharge I cancell the draw down at the set floor voltage of 2.81
>> and
>> when the current drops below 10 amps. So we do get a charge taper and a
>> discharge taper.
>>
>> Works for Me.
>> Any Questions?
>>
>> Rich Rudman
>> [email protected]
>> Manzanita Micro
>> 360-297-7383,
>> Cell 360-620-6266
>> Production shop 360-297-1660
>> FAX at Metal shop 1-360-297-3311
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Maynard" <[email protected]>
>> To: <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 6:29 PM
>> Subject: RE: A123 chemistry
>>
>>
>>> The ideal charge profile for the TS LiFePO4 chemistry is constant
>>> current of .3C to 80% SOC, then constant 4.2V to full, according to TS.
>>>
>>> I took delivery (Well, it wasn't exactly delivery, the air shipping
>>> agents were a PITA - reverse engineer the acronym) of some 40Ah and
>>> 90Ah
>>> LFP cells, and was impressed that the relaxed voltage was 3.31V for
>>> each
>>> of 45 cells on arrival, no deviation to the 2nd decimal place. I was
>>> looking to manifest a parallel "float level maintainer" (to buy storage
>>> time until BMS) when I measured each cell again 10 days later. Still
>>> 3.31V for each one after 10 days, although TS says self discharge is
>>> about 5% per month (or is that .5% ?).
>>>
>>> Although that is a relief, I know I have to come up with a safe
>>> parallel
>>> storage charger soon, and better yet, BMS/charge so they can be put on
>>> some 2-wheelers.
>>>
>>> Anyone who has already blazed this trail, advice appreciated (thanks
>>> Jukka-I'm sure you have your hands full too). Otherwise, I'll see what
>>> I can come up with and let you know how it works.
>>>
>>> -S
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message -------
>>> Subject: RE: A123 chemistryrool
>>> From: Jeff Shanab <[email protected]>
>>> Date: Fri, July 27, 2007 8:38 pm
>>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
>>>
>>> I had talked with them early, when they would talk to us normal people.
>>> and Since then,via email, to the factory in china that claims to make
>>> the cells for them until they get their own plant going and in boththis
>>> conversations they have said Lithium-Iron-Phosphate.
>>>
>>> But it is easier than this to check. Get out your voltmeter.
>>>
>>> Lithium cobalt 3.6Vnominal 4.25Max charge
>>> Lithium Iron Phosphate 3.2-3.4 3.7 max charge (Easy to tell)
>>> Lithium-magenese 3.7-3.8 Nominal 4.2Max charge (ok, hard to tell
>>> compared to cobalt)
>>>
>>> http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-5A.htm
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #2
Re: [EVDL] TS chemistry Was A123 chem

Yeah.. since TS copied them mostly from A123 site. :)

Most of the curves are products of imagination and free hand drawings.

Rich... "Very" -word caught my attention. Let the light in and tell what =

are you referring to ...

-Jukka


Rich Rudman kirjoitti:
> Cycle life on a TS and a A123 are speced the same.
> =

> What we get will be Very interesting.
> =

> Madman
> =

> ----- Original Message ----- =

> From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 6:47 PM
> Subject: Re: TS chemistry Was A123 chem
> =

> =

> but are they really cheap? as compared to estimated A123 prices and
> known PHET prices
> and would A123 not last several times longer?
> =

> Dan
> =

> Jukka J=E4rvinen wrote:
>> Here's some cycling data for all of you on list.
>>
>> Test subject is TS LFP-30 cell. 1st patch ever made.
>>
>> 1600th cycle just got this morning and still holding 69% of the
>> original capacity.
>>
>> Now .. All cycles are 1C (from original capacity) charge and discharge.
>>
>> Discharged to 2V and charged to 4,30V on each cycle.
>>
>> So 100% what can be taken out in any condition.. I would say.
>>
>> How's that for the cheapo Chinese stuff.. ??
>>
>> I'll have the internal resistance numbers coming up later so that
>> might affect on the 69% somewhat.
>>
>> -Jukka
>>
>>
>> Rich Rudman kirjoitti:
>>> I have 4 of the TS-LFP40aha on cycle life testing.
>>>
>>> So far very good results.
>>> I am trying to hold them to the %70 DOD spec that yields a 3000 cycle
>>> life
>>> curve.
>>>
>>> I have Mk3Lion Regs on each cell. I have the top set to 4.01 volts
>>> and the
>>> floor I ran 20 cycles with a floor of 2.5 volts. The yielded about
>>> %98 DOD
>>> on all 20 cycles.
>>> Damn!! Those cells sure make cheap lead acid look like junk!!
>>>
>>> I am now runnig with a floor of 2.80 volts per cell. I hope to
>>> restrict the
>>> Ahrs to aproximateley 32. This is the %80 DOD point, When these
>>> cycles are
>>> run, Then I am upping the voltage floor to 3.00 volts and hoping the
>>> results
>>> will be 28 amp hours, Then I am going to run them for ever!
>>> I expect that by the time I get to cycle 2000 the added shop heat
>>> will be a
>>> welcome addition to the heating budget at the Power shop. Right now
>>> .. it's
>>> a crime to be making any heat in hot shop in August. Doing PFC40 liquid
>>> coole chargers.. on a 80 Deg day, Well that wasted heat is not doing
>>> anybody
>>> any good.
>>>
>>> The set up is 4 cells in series, for a 12 volt..aka 16 volt pack, I
>>> have 4
>>> modified MK3 Digi regs doing data collection, and Reg/charger feed
>>> back for
>>> the high and low Gard voltage feature. The Cycles.. is a 50 amp class
>>> charger set up as a Windloader, and a PFC30 Hanger Queen doing 30
>>> amps of
>>> charge power....Cute pile of equipment, finally earning it's keep.
>>>
>>> The Regs do dissapate and equalize the cells when they Reg at 4.01
>>> volts,
>>> This keep the pack equalized on every charge off state. The cycler is
>>> programmed to hold peak volts of 16.00 until the amps taper to 5 amps
>>> on the
>>> charge side. And.. the regs hold any one cell in line as well as the
>>> charger.
>>> On discharge I cancell the draw down at the set floor voltage of 2.81
>>> and
>>> when the current drops below 10 amps. So we do get a charge taper and a
>>> discharge taper.
>>>
>>> Works for Me.
>>> Any Questions?
>>>
>>> Rich Rudman
>>> [email protected]
>>> Manzanita Micro
>>> 360-297-7383,
>>> Cell 360-620-6266
>>> Production shop 360-297-1660
>>> FAX at Metal shop 1-360-297-3311
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Maynard" <[email protected]>
>>> To: <[email protected]>
>>> Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 6:29 PM
>>> Subject: RE: A123 chemistry
>>>
>>>
>>>> The ideal charge profile for the TS LiFePO4 chemistry is constant
>>>> current of .3C to 80% SOC, then constant 4.2V to full, according to TS.
>>>>
>>>> I took delivery (Well, it wasn't exactly delivery, the air shipping
>>>> agents were a PITA - reverse engineer the acronym) of some 40Ah and
>>>> 90Ah
>>>> LFP cells, and was impressed that the relaxed voltage was 3.31V for
>>>> each
>>>> of 45 cells on arrival, no deviation to the 2nd decimal place. I was
>>>> looking to manifest a parallel "float level maintainer" (to buy storage
>>>> time until BMS) when I measured each cell again 10 days later. Still
>>>> 3.31V for each one after 10 days, although TS says self discharge is
>>>> about 5% per month (or is that .5% ?).
>>>>
>>>> Although that is a relief, I know I have to come up with a safe
>>>> parallel
>>>> storage charger soon, and better yet, BMS/charge so they can be put on
>>>> some 2-wheelers.
>>>>
>>>> Anyone who has already blazed this trail, advice appreciated (thanks
>>>> Jukka-I'm sure you have your hands full too). Otherwise, I'll see what
>>>> I can come up with and let you know how it works.
>>>>
>>>> -S
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original Message -------
>>>> Subject: RE: A123 chemistryrool
>>>> From: Jeff Shanab <[email protected]>
>>>> Date: Fri, July 27, 2007 8:38 pm
>>>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
>>>>
>>>> I had talked with them early, when they would talk to us normal people.
>>>> and Since then,via email, to the factory in china that claims to make
>>>> the cells for them until they get their own plant going and in boththis
>>>> conversations they have said Lithium-Iron-Phosphate.
>>>>
>>>> But it is easier than this to check. Get out your voltmeter.
>>>>
>>>> Lithium cobalt 3.6Vnominal 4.25Max charge
>>>> Lithium Iron Phosphate 3.2-3.4 3.7 max charge (Easy to tell)
>>>> Lithium-magenese 3.7-3.8 Nominal 4.2Max charge (ok, hard to tell
>>>> compared to cobalt)
>>>>
>>>> http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-5A.htm
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
> =

> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> =


-- =

Jukka J=E4rvinen
R&D Director
Oy Finnish Electric Vehicle Technologies Ltd
Teollisuuskatu 24 A3
11100 RIIHIM=C4KI

jukka.jarvinen(at)fevt.com
cell phone +358-440-735705
wired phone +358-19-735705
fax +358-19-735785

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Re: [EVDL] TS chemistry Was A123 chem

Rich,

To get of that excess heat, use a 60 to 100 gallon electric water heater as
a water storage tank and exchange that with your water cool charger to the
water in your water system or swimming pool.

Roland


>>> I expect that by the time I get to cycle 2000 the added shop heat
>>> will be a
>>> welcome addition to the heating budget at the Power shop. Right now
>>> .. it's
>>> a crime to be making any heat in hot shop in August. Doing PFC40 liquid
>>> coole chargers.. on a 80 Deg day, Well that wasted heat is not doing
>>> anybody any good.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Re: [EVDL] TS chemistry Was A123 chem

I am getting %84 to 87 % KWhr Efficiency.
Most of the error is in the 40 feet of #4 cable.

This about 1/2 the losses that the PbLa had.

The regs work about 180 seconds at the top of the charge cycle.
They limit the charge votlage and dissapate acouple of watts.
Literally the Reg's heat sink get maybe 10 Deg F over ambient.
In this taper state, the first Reg kicks on and with in 3 minutes the last
kicks on, Then the first drops off as the charge current tapers.
The total taper is about 2 amphours and is done in about 6 minutes. The
taper is from 40 amps to 5 amps while holding the Regs on. The top limit is
set to 4.01 volts.. to try to NOT take them any higher than needed. The
added capacity from 4.01 to 4.25 volts is unmeasureable.
I am now at cycle 80 + heading to 100. I am extracting 34.5 to 35.2 amphours
pre cycle.

I dropped back to a 3.01 volt floor because the 3.11 floor interferd with
the main Capacity plataue. You get the same energy out, But at a lower
amperage. Staying over 2.80 keep you from falling off the end of charge
curve cliff. Dropping off the cliff.. gets you 38 to 39 amphours, or basicly
%100 DOD + or - about 5%. Yea I have gotten 105%... sucking to 2.50 volts
and a 2 amp taper down to point.. too mich stress on the cell I believe.

Rich Rudman



----- Original Message ----- =

From: "Jukka J=E4rvinen" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 6:34 PM
Subject: Re: TS chemistry Was A123 chem


Oh.. I forgto to ask...

Rich.. have you measured the over all efficiency with the clampers and
balancing ?

From outlet to motor (or what ever load)

We made such clamping devices with Victor but I had hard time to
convince me that this is the route. It was WAY too wasty.

But.. of couse it works ok. It does the trick and you can have the Lion
in the tank... :)

Balancing by rerouting the energy around the pack is how we are doing it
every day now. We get over 90% out what we put in. With balance.

No balancing sequences in the low and high end of SOC.

After you get more cycles in the pack measure the differences on the
cells and discover how they have evolved.

Any case .. These small cells beat the SLAs in efficiency and cycle
life. So the absolute maximum is not perhaps required. To triple the
lifetime and usability in a car already "pays back" nicely.

I try to come to PIR at 18th. Hope to see some of you there. I tried
already to get to invitational but timing was bad.

-Jukka


Jukka J=E4rvinen kirjoitti:
> Here's some cycling data for all of you on list.
>
> Test subject is TS LFP-30 cell. 1st patch ever made.
>
> 1600th cycle just got this morning and still holding 69% of the original
> capacity.
>
> Now .. All cycles are 1C (from original capacity) charge and discharge.
>
> Discharged to 2V and charged to 4,30V on each cycle.
>
> So 100% what can be taken out in any condition.. I would say.
>
> How's that for the cheapo Chinese stuff.. ??
>
> I'll have the internal resistance numbers coming up later so that might
> affect on the 69% somewhat.
>
> -Jukka
>
>
> Rich Rudman kirjoitti:
>> I have 4 of the TS-LFP40aha on cycle life testing.
>>
>> So far very good results.
>> I am trying to hold them to the %70 DOD spec that yields a 3000 cycle
>> life
>> curve.
>>
>> I have Mk3Lion Regs on each cell. I have the top set to 4.01 volts and
>> the
>> floor I ran 20 cycles with a floor of 2.5 volts. The yielded about %98
>> DOD
>> on all 20 cycles.
>> Damn!! Those cells sure make cheap lead acid look like junk!!
>>
>> I am now runnig with a floor of 2.80 volts per cell. I hope to
>> restrict the
>> Ahrs to aproximateley 32. This is the %80 DOD point, When these cycles
>> are
>> run, Then I am upping the voltage floor to 3.00 volts and hoping the
>> results
>> will be 28 amp hours, Then I am going to run them for ever!
>> I expect that by the time I get to cycle 2000 the added shop heat will
>> be a
>> welcome addition to the heating budget at the Power shop. Right now ..
>> it's
>> a crime to be making any heat in hot shop in August. Doing PFC40 liquid
>> coole chargers.. on a 80 Deg day, Well that wasted heat is not doing
>> anybody
>> any good.
>>
>> The set up is 4 cells in series, for a 12 volt..aka 16 volt pack, I
>> have 4
>> modified MK3 Digi regs doing data collection, and Reg/charger feed
>> back for
>> the high and low Gard voltage feature. The Cycles.. is a 50 amp class
>> charger set up as a Windloader, and a PFC30 Hanger Queen doing 30 amps of
>> charge power....Cute pile of equipment, finally earning it's keep.
>>
>> The Regs do dissapate and equalize the cells when they Reg at 4.01 volts,
>> This keep the pack equalized on every charge off state. The cycler is
>> programmed to hold peak volts of 16.00 until the amps taper to 5 amps
>> on the
>> charge side. And.. the regs hold any one cell in line as well as the
>> charger.
>> On discharge I cancell the draw down at the set floor voltage of 2.81 and
>> when the current drops below 10 amps. So we do get a charge taper and a
>> discharge taper.
>>
>> Works for Me.
>> Any Questions?
>>
>> Rich Rudman
>> [email protected]
>> Manzanita Micro
>> 360-297-7383,
>> Cell 360-620-6266
>> Production shop 360-297-1660
>> FAX at Metal shop 1-360-297-3311
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Maynard" <[email protected]>
>> To: <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 6:29 PM
>> Subject: RE: A123 chemistry
>>
>>
>>> The ideal charge profile for the TS LiFePO4 chemistry is constant
>>> current of .3C to 80% SOC, then constant 4.2V to full, according to TS.
>>>
>>> I took delivery (Well, it wasn't exactly delivery, the air shipping
>>> agents were a PITA - reverse engineer the acronym) of some 40Ah and 90Ah
>>> LFP cells, and was impressed that the relaxed voltage was 3.31V for each
>>> of 45 cells on arrival, no deviation to the 2nd decimal place. I was
>>> looking to manifest a parallel "float level maintainer" (to buy storage
>>> time until BMS) when I measured each cell again 10 days later. Still
>>> 3.31V for each one after 10 days, although TS says self discharge is
>>> about 5% per month (or is that .5% ?).
>>>
>>> Although that is a relief, I know I have to come up with a safe parallel
>>> storage charger soon, and better yet, BMS/charge so they can be put on
>>> some 2-wheelers.
>>>
>>> Anyone who has already blazed this trail, advice appreciated (thanks
>>> Jukka-I'm sure you have your hands full too). Otherwise, I'll see what
>>> I can come up with and let you know how it works.
>>>
>>> -S
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message -------
>>> Subject: RE: A123 chemistryrool
>>> From: Jeff Shanab <[email protected]>
>>> Date: Fri, July 27, 2007 8:38 pm
>>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
>>>
>>> I had talked with them early, when they would talk to us normal people.
>>> and Since then,via email, to the factory in china that claims to make
>>> the cells for them until they get their own plant going and in boththis
>>> conversations they have said Lithium-Iron-Phosphate.
>>>
>>> But it is easier than this to check. Get out your voltmeter.
>>>
>>> Lithium cobalt 3.6Vnominal 4.25Max charge
>>> Lithium Iron Phosphate 3.2-3.4 3.7 max charge (Easy to tell)
>>> Lithium-magenese 3.7-3.8 Nominal 4.2Max charge (ok, hard to tell
>>> compared to cobalt)
>>>
>>> http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-5A.htm
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

-- =

Jukka J=E4rvinen
R&D Director
Oy Finnish Electric Vehicle Technologies Ltd
Teollisuuskatu 24 A3
11100 RIIHIM=C4KI

jukka.jarvinen(at)fevt.com
cell phone +358-440-735705
wired phone +358-19-735705
fax +358-19-735785

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Re: [EVDL] TS chemistry Was A123 chem

Nice Rich !

Keep us posted how it proceeds.

Efficiency is quite good but LCPs were over 90% (93% about).

We'll see how the dis balance evolves now on the setup. I can tell you =

already that at some point the regs start working longer and longer on.

Now the wekast link is the weakest link. Thou with LFPs the situation =

might evolve after much longer time. It's there.

We did quite extencive tests and many systems with clamping ideology but =

results were far from satisfaction. There were also some reliability =

issues but that came from the design of the clamper it self. Not from =

the concept.

LFP cells do provide much longer lifetime and extends the unavoidable =

death of the cell. It's also much cheaper to make. So the equation =

starts working already.

Cost effective systems are here....


-jukka

Rich Rudman kirjoitti:
> I am getting %84 to 87 % KWhr Efficiency.
> Most of the error is in the 40 feet of #4 cable.
> =

> This about 1/2 the losses that the PbLa had.
> =

> The regs work about 180 seconds at the top of the charge cycle.
> They limit the charge votlage and dissapate acouple of watts.
> Literally the Reg's heat sink get maybe 10 Deg F over ambient.
> In this taper state, the first Reg kicks on and with in 3 minutes the last
> kicks on, Then the first drops off as the charge current tapers.
> The total taper is about 2 amphours and is done in about 6 minutes. The
> taper is from 40 amps to 5 amps while holding the Regs on. The top limit =
is
> set to 4.01 volts.. to try to NOT take them any higher than needed. The
> added capacity from 4.01 to 4.25 volts is unmeasureable.
> I am now at cycle 80 + heading to 100. I am extracting 34.5 to 35.2 ampho=
urs
> pre cycle.
> =

> I dropped back to a 3.01 volt floor because the 3.11 floor interferd with
> the main Capacity plataue. You get the same energy out, But at a lower
> amperage. Staying over 2.80 keep you from falling off the end of charge
> curve cliff. Dropping off the cliff.. gets you 38 to 39 amphours, or basi=
cly
> %100 DOD + or - about 5%. Yea I have gotten 105%... sucking to 2.50 volts
> and a 2 amp taper down to point.. too mich stress on the cell I believe.
> =

> Rich Rudman
> =

> =

> =

> ----- Original Message ----- =

> From: "Jukka J=E4rvinen" <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 6:34 PM
> Subject: Re: TS chemistry Was A123 chem
> =

> =

> Oh.. I forgto to ask...
> =

> Rich.. have you measured the over all efficiency with the clampers and
> balancing ?
> =

> From outlet to motor (or what ever load)
> =

> We made such clamping devices with Victor but I had hard time to
> convince me that this is the route. It was WAY too wasty.
> =

> But.. of couse it works ok. It does the trick and you can have the Lion
> in the tank... :)
> =

> Balancing by rerouting the energy around the pack is how we are doing it
> every day now. We get over 90% out what we put in. With balance.
> =

> No balancing sequences in the low and high end of SOC.
> =

> After you get more cycles in the pack measure the differences on the
> cells and discover how they have evolved.
> =

> Any case .. These small cells beat the SLAs in efficiency and cycle
> life. So the absolute maximum is not perhaps required. To triple the
> lifetime and usability in a car already "pays back" nicely.
> =

> I try to come to PIR at 18th. Hope to see some of you there. I tried
> already to get to invitational but timing was bad.
> =

> -Jukka
> =

> =

> Jukka J=E4rvinen kirjoitti:
>> Here's some cycling data for all of you on list.
>>
>> Test subject is TS LFP-30 cell. 1st patch ever made.
>>
>> 1600th cycle just got this morning and still holding 69% of the original
>> capacity.
>>
>> Now .. All cycles are 1C (from original capacity) charge and discharge.
>>
>> Discharged to 2V and charged to 4,30V on each cycle.
>>
>> So 100% what can be taken out in any condition.. I would say.
>>
>> How's that for the cheapo Chinese stuff.. ??
>>
>> I'll have the internal resistance numbers coming up later so that might
>> affect on the 69% somewhat.
>>
>> -Jukka
>>
>>
>> Rich Rudman kirjoitti:
>>> I have 4 of the TS-LFP40aha on cycle life testing.
>>>
>>> So far very good results.
>>> I am trying to hold them to the %70 DOD spec that yields a 3000 cycle
>>> life
>>> curve.
>>>
>>> I have Mk3Lion Regs on each cell. I have the top set to 4.01 volts and
>>> the
>>> floor I ran 20 cycles with a floor of 2.5 volts. The yielded about %98
>>> DOD
>>> on all 20 cycles.
>>> Damn!! Those cells sure make cheap lead acid look like junk!!
>>>
>>> I am now runnig with a floor of 2.80 volts per cell. I hope to
>>> restrict the
>>> Ahrs to aproximateley 32. This is the %80 DOD point, When these cycles
>>> are
>>> run, Then I am upping the voltage floor to 3.00 volts and hoping the
>>> results
>>> will be 28 amp hours, Then I am going to run them for ever!
>>> I expect that by the time I get to cycle 2000 the added shop heat will
>>> be a
>>> welcome addition to the heating budget at the Power shop. Right now ..
>>> it's
>>> a crime to be making any heat in hot shop in August. Doing PFC40 liquid
>>> coole chargers.. on a 80 Deg day, Well that wasted heat is not doing
>>> anybody
>>> any good.
>>>
>>> The set up is 4 cells in series, for a 12 volt..aka 16 volt pack, I
>>> have 4
>>> modified MK3 Digi regs doing data collection, and Reg/charger feed
>>> back for
>>> the high and low Gard voltage feature. The Cycles.. is a 50 amp class
>>> charger set up as a Windloader, and a PFC30 Hanger Queen doing 30 amps =
of
>>> charge power....Cute pile of equipment, finally earning it's keep.
>>>
>>> The Regs do dissapate and equalize the cells when they Reg at 4.01 volt=
s,
>>> This keep the pack equalized on every charge off state. The cycler is
>>> programmed to hold peak volts of 16.00 until the amps taper to 5 amps
>>> on the
>>> charge side. And.. the regs hold any one cell in line as well as the
>>> charger.
>>> On discharge I cancell the draw down at the set floor voltage of 2.81 a=
nd
>>> when the current drops below 10 amps. So we do get a charge taper and a
>>> discharge taper.
>>>
>>> Works for Me.
>>> Any Questions?
>>>
>>> Rich Rudman
>>> [email protected]
>>> Manzanita Micro
>>> 360-297-7383,
>>> Cell 360-620-6266
>>> Production shop 360-297-1660
>>> FAX at Metal shop 1-360-297-3311
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Maynard" <[email protected]>
>>> To: <[email protected]>
>>> Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 6:29 PM
>>> Subject: RE: A123 chemistry
>>>
>>>
>>>> The ideal charge profile for the TS LiFePO4 chemistry is constant
>>>> current of .3C to 80% SOC, then constant 4.2V to full, according to TS.
>>>>
>>>> I took delivery (Well, it wasn't exactly delivery, the air shipping
>>>> agents were a PITA - reverse engineer the acronym) of some 40Ah and 90=
Ah
>>>> LFP cells, and was impressed that the relaxed voltage was 3.31V for ea=
ch
>>>> of 45 cells on arrival, no deviation to the 2nd decimal place. I was
>>>> looking to manifest a parallel "float level maintainer" (to buy storage
>>>> time until BMS) when I measured each cell again 10 days later. Still
>>>> 3.31V for each one after 10 days, although TS says self discharge is
>>>> about 5% per month (or is that .5% ?).
>>>>
>>>> Although that is a relief, I know I have to come up with a safe parall=
el
>>>> storage charger soon, and better yet, BMS/charge so they can be put on
>>>> some 2-wheelers.
>>>>
>>>> Anyone who has already blazed this trail, advice appreciated (thanks
>>>> Jukka-I'm sure you have your hands full too). Otherwise, I'll see what
>>>> I can come up with and let you know how it works.
>>>>
>>>> -S
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original Message -------
>>>> Subject: RE: A123 chemistryrool
>>>> From: Jeff Shanab <[email protected]>
>>>> Date: Fri, July 27, 2007 8:38 pm
>>>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
>>>>
>>>> I had talked with them early, when they would talk to us normal people.
>>>> and Since then,via email, to the factory in china that claims to make
>>>> the cells for them until they get their own plant going and in boththis
>>>> conversations they have said Lithium-Iron-Phosphate.
>>>>
>>>> But it is easier than this to check. Get out your voltmeter.
>>>>
>>>> Lithium cobalt 3.6Vnominal 4.25Max charge
>>>> Lithium Iron Phosphate 3.2-3.4 3.7 max charge (Easy to tell)
>>>> Lithium-magenese 3.7-3.8 Nominal 4.2Max charge (ok, hard to tell
>>>> compared to cobalt)
>>>>
>>>> http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-5A.htm
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
> =


-- =

Jukka J=E4rvinen
R&D Director
Oy Finnish Electric Vehicle Technologies Ltd
Teollisuuskatu 24 A3
11100 RIIHIM=C4KI

jukka.jarvinen(at)fevt.com
cell phone +358-440-735705
wired phone +358-19-735705
fax +358-19-735785

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Re: [EVDL] TS chemistry Was A123 chem

My question is, why are you tapering on discharge? Most tests aren't done
that way. Could trying to get every last bit at the end maybe hurt their
life?


----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 3:36 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] TS chemistry Was A123 chem


I am getting %84 to 87 % KWhr Efficiency.
Most of the error is in the 40 feet of #4 cable.

This about 1/2 the losses that the PbLa had.

The regs work about 180 seconds at the top of the charge cycle.
They limit the charge votlage and dissapate acouple of watts.
Literally the Reg's heat sink get maybe 10 Deg F over ambient.
In this taper state, the first Reg kicks on and with in 3 minutes the last
kicks on, Then the first drops off as the charge current tapers.
The total taper is about 2 amphours and is done in about 6 minutes. The
taper is from 40 amps to 5 amps while holding the Regs on. The top limit is
set to 4.01 volts.. to try to NOT take them any higher than needed. The
added capacity from 4.01 to 4.25 volts is unmeasureable.
I am now at cycle 80 + heading to 100. I am extracting 34.5 to 35.2 amphours
pre cycle.

I dropped back to a 3.01 volt floor because the 3.11 floor interferd with
the main Capacity plataue. You get the same energy out, But at a lower
amperage. Staying over 2.80 keep you from falling off the end of charge
curve cliff. Dropping off the cliff.. gets you 38 to 39 amphours, or basicly
%100 DOD + or - about 5%. Yea I have gotten 105%... sucking to 2.50 volts
and a 2 amp taper down to point.. too mich stress on the cell I believe.

Rich Rudman




_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Re: [EVDL] TS chemistry Was A123 chem

Jukka J=E4rvinen wrote:

> But... If LFP cells give out 2000 cycles by charging to 4,3 V and =

> discharging to 2V ..... and still gives out 60% of original... That's =

> already 200 000 miles on the pack with 100 miles/cycle (AVG, new 130 mi, =

> old 80 mi). . ... .. And that pack can cost 8000 USD or less to replace. =

> =3D> 4 cents/mi .

That's Cool Jukka. Why don't they replace my TS-PL90 for start then?
I paid my $8000 USD...

Until that is done TS won't make me to buy their cells even
for 1/10 of what you've quoted. In other words it has to be
understood that the price alone is irrelevant as long as the company
sees customers only as money bags. You keep saying this has changed.
Any tangible proof from any neutral body?

This is uncomfortable topic, isn't it?

But the reality is anyone who work with TS got stuck with
their reputation to the point that money and particular cell
performance is not relevant.
And longer they wait, the harder it will be to change that
perception (if possible at all by now) Heck, I don't want
their cells even for free, and I'm not alone.

So, yes, in theory as you say children aren't responsible for
parent's behavior, but that children's "new" behavior so far
has not been demonstrated to be any different. It's been said
it's different. Again, it has not been demonstrated so.

I really wish I could say better words about TS, but I have
no basis for it. And that makes quality of 40A LFP-90 (or
whatever) irrelevant to me (which I know is a big warning sign
for others whom I have no choice but steer away from TS, no matter who =

says what).

John Lussmyer is very right in his assessment of the
situation. Welcome to reality.

May be we can discuss this a bit more while at PIR...

Have a safe flight and see you there,

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Re: [EVDL] TS chemistry Was A123 chem

Victor, Jukka:

I've reported earlier on this list regarding the troubles with TS. =

TS is not worth the grief.

/Bob S.
Victor Tikhonov wrote:

> Jukka J=E4rvinen wrote:
>
>> But... If LFP cells give out 2000 cycles by charging to 4,3 V and
>> discharging to 2V ..... and still gives out 60% of original... That's
>> already 200 000 miles on the pack with 100 miles/cycle (AVG, new =

>> 130 mi,
>> old 80 mi). . ... .. And that pack can cost 8000 USD or less to =

>> replace.
>> =3D> 4 cents/mi .
>
> That's Cool Jukka. Why don't they replace my TS-PL90 for start then?
> I paid my $8000 USD...
>
> Until that is done TS won't make me to buy their cells even
> for 1/10 of what you've quoted. In other words it has to be
> understood that the price alone is irrelevant as long as the company
> sees customers only as money bags. You keep saying this has changed.
> Any tangible proof from any neutral body?
>
> This is uncomfortable topic, isn't it?
>
> But the reality is anyone who work with TS got stuck with
> their reputation to the point that money and particular cell
> performance is not relevant.
> And longer they wait, the harder it will be to change that
> perception (if possible at all by now) Heck, I don't want
> their cells even for free, and I'm not alone.
>
> So, yes, in theory as you say children aren't responsible for
> parent's behavior, but that children's "new" behavior so far
> has not been demonstrated to be any different. It's been said
> it's different. Again, it has not been demonstrated so.
>
> I really wish I could say better words about TS, but I have
> no basis for it. And that makes quality of 40A LFP-90 (or
> whatever) irrelevant to me (which I know is a big warning sign
> for others whom I have no choice but steer away from TS, no matter who
> says what).
>
> John Lussmyer is very right in his assessment of the
> situation. Welcome to reality.
>
> May be we can discuss this a bit more while at PIR...
>
> Have a safe flight and see you there,
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Re: [EVDL] TS chemistry Was A123 chem

That's right. Why bother to report some tests results on EVDL
or indicate how cheap they are then? How given cells actually
perform and cost makes NO difference if no one is going to buy
them. And, given circumstances, no one really should.
If you do, you encourage company keep doing what they are doing,
giving them the message there is nothing wrong here, business as
usual. If money keep flowing in, why bother to change anything.

Victor

Bob Siebert wrote:
> Victor, Jukka:
>
> I've reported earlier on this list regarding the troubles with TS.
> TS is not worth the grief.
>
> /Bob S.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Re: [EVDL] TS chemistry Was A123 chem

I have no problem to talk about the TS issues. I know how they do things
and it is far from western standards.

I've rolled the full case about the old cells in front of Winston. I
feel a bit troubled how he reacted on the issue. The amount of cells
that need changing is muuuch greater that anyone of us knows. I believe.

This is the reason I have always STRONGLY adviced NOT to buy cells
directly from them. I test all my cells in China before shipping. If any
bad I change it.

I have now in my hands 1600 pcs of LMP-30 cells that all needs changing.
It was a patch of prototype cells but still.. Not an big issue. So
small thing but makes cells unusable. Regarding corrosion inside the
cell structures. This was not possible to indicate in tests.

I strongly advice NOT to install any LMP cells in sideways. Risk of
shorting inside the cell is there.

Risk with buying cells in small patches is much greater than if buying
containers. So far everything has been ok with me and TS (what is comes
to cells I have bought). But now we see how it evolves from here.

There will be a privately owned Finnish based battery factory which uses
TS methods of manufacturing at some extend. No relation to TS in
business vice. FEVT role in this is to make battery systems out of those
cells.

Instead of buying cells from TS I suggest to buy complete systems from
this new "child".

Is there now reason enough to post LFP-30 cell results ?


-Jukka



Victor Tikhonov kirjoitti:
> That's right. Why bother to report some tests results on EVDL
> or indicate how cheap they are then? How given cells actually
> perform and cost makes NO difference if no one is going to buy
> them. And, given circumstances, no one really should.
> If you do, you encourage company keep doing what they are doing,
> giving them the message there is nothing wrong here, business as
> usual. If money keep flowing in, why bother to change anything.
>
> Victor
>
> Bob Siebert wrote:
>> Victor, Jukka:
>>
>> I've reported earlier on this list regarding the troubles with TS.
>> TS is not worth the grief.
>>
>> /Bob S.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Re: [EVDL] TS chemistry Was A123 chem

I hold the peak voltage until the current tapers to a known level. I don't
just stop at the peak voltage at full current.

I dissagree, All tests are done that way in some form or other.

In lead Acid you loose about %10 of your possible charge that way.
You have to do this on EVERY cycle or you slowly loose cap. I have a really
nice graph that shows how to killl a AGM in 125 cycle by NOT tapering below
2 amps on a 18 amph hour battery.

On Lions the taper back is less than 2 minutes from 40 amp to 10 amps So..
the hang time is rather short.
The point is to attain a %100 full cell. The spec sheet show holding the
volts at 4.25 until the amps are like nothing... OK.. my test gear needs a
real mesureable number.. I chose 10 amp hold discharge voltage point and 5
amps on the charge voltage hold point.

On The lead was 10 amp discharge at 10 volts, and 2 amp hold at 14.5 on the
charge.

Amending that to .5 amps on the charger stopped the aging after the PbLa
battery was at 125 cycles, the rest of the 200 more cycles I applied dropped
the battery to only 5 amp hours available and most of that was at less than
the 40 amps I needed. So..we killed a PbLa battery to %30 of new in 300
honest cycles. A far cry from the 650 that we wanted.
Live and learn.

The TS cell are doing very well with my newer limits.
With all the Hoopla over TS right now..

I still have 4 perfect cell doing perfect cycles. Good bad or Ugly.. These
cells are preforming to Spec, If no over spec. My set up is yeilding 33.5 to
34.5 amphours on every cycle.
A it more than the %70 DOD that I am trying to run them at.
Last night they were at cycle # 236, there is not much variation in cycle
shape or depth on the last 100 cycles.

Now If I just can get enough for a Case full in my PiPrius.... That works as
good as these do, I will be a very happy EVer.


Rich Rudman
[email protected]
Manzanita Micro
360-297-7383,
Cell 360-620-6266
Production shop 360-297-1660
FAX at Metal shop 1-360-297-3311







_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 
1 - 13 of 13 Posts
Top