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Discussion Starter #7
Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV

I'm not familiar with the history of this whole thing (like a lot of the
readers of the list I suppose), and it's apparent that there is some bad
history. I agree with having data on a web site, but I'd like to see
something like "We'd be willing to purchase an additional X cells under the
conditions that those cells are tested and verified to meet spec before
shipment by so-and-so, have an ongoing warranty, and that the following
issues are resolved from previous purchases" followed by the cases that need
to be addressed.

My thought is that if we want to see them put some effort into meeting
specifications, and resolving the old issues, we need them to see that it is
a business opportunity going forward, not just a loss. We have to make it
in their best interest in a tangible way to resolve the bad blood.

The one thing I don't know, is if a contract can be written up that actually
has an enforceable recourse in it if the product doesn't meet spec.
Legally, I don't know what you can do about it if a supplier in China ships
substandard goods, even if you have a contract. Bad publicity doesn't
matter much if it was their intent to cut corners. They can change their
name overnight and do it all over. Certainly doing some testing of a sample
of cells before the final payment was made would have prevented a lot of
this grief.


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Discussion Starter #8
Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV

You can't expect individual consumers to have any leverage. That's why class-action lawsuits exist. The only way to do this is to organize.

---
My thought is that if we want to see them put some effort into meeting
specifications, and resolving the old issues, we need them to see that it is
a business opportunity going forward, not just a loss. We have to make it
in their best interest in a tangible way to resolve the bad blood.



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Discussion Starter #9
Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV

The best way to get a resolution is to show them why they want to resolve
it. Fomenting hostility will not get us a supplier of good batteries.
Legal action against someone in China would be very expensive, if even
possible. So an international law firm was retained to write up an
enforcable contract before the purchase was made, right? Didn't think so.

Personally, the only organizing that I would think would help significantly
is organizing to show them what we could do for them if they were to get
their act together. Lawsuits only work if you have a high probability of
winning enough cash to pay off the lawyers and still get something back.
Without a contract before the purchase, good luck. One thing I have
learned, when dealing with strangers, especially outside the country, you're
gambling, never make a deal that would hurt too much if it came to the worst
possible outcome. What did you have in place to keep them from shipping you
a palette of their worst junk?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn Saunders" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 6:00 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV


> You can't expect individual consumers to have any leverage. That's why
> class-action lawsuits exist. The only way to do this is to organize.
>
> ---
> My thought is that if we want to see them put some effort into meeting
> specifications, and resolving the old issues, we need them to see that it
> is
> a business opportunity going forward, not just a loss. We have to make it
> in their best interest in a tangible way to resolve the bad blood.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>


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Discussion Starter #10
Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV

What would we do for them, and why do you think it would help?

----- Original Message ----
Personally, the only organizing that I would think would help significantly
is organizing to show them what we could do for them if they were to get
their act together.





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Discussion Starter #11
Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV

Personally, I'd consider dropping some money to buy a battery pack from them
if they would #1 resolve the old issues and #2 support the product with a
meaningful warranty. I really think the way to approach this is to see if
we could develop a relationship to where we could place a good size order
and deduct a refund for the previous bad batteries from the purchase price
(or get some additional cells included free of charge). If we can put
together a big enough order (with a reasonable expectation of quality) that
they can cover the replacement of the old bad cells out of their profit on
the new order, it becomes a win-win situation and everyone may come out of
this much happier. Assuming they are capable of building a good battery
(and it looks like we have the testing talent to determine if they can), we
may develop a good supplier who understands our expectations, and get the
people who got shorted last time taken care of. But it's much more likely
to happen if they can see how they can do it without actually paying out
cash by simply making less on a larger group order. Nobody likes to pay out
cash.

The trouble is that going for the throat instead of being more proactive
would make such a solution far less likely. We've all got to be able to see
this as a bump in the road on the way to a good working relationship in the
future, not a battle, or the most likely outcome is that everybody loses.

Any hard core negotiater will say that the idea is to come up with a
solution that allows everyone to save face. If we could pull this off, we
could get replacement batteries for those who got junk, and a batch of
better batteries for a good price. They get out from under a bad situation
that they don't want to pay cash to fix (and I really suspect that's not
expected in their business culture, so they may very well see it as an
outrageous request), and possibly get an ongoing profitable market for their
product.

The biggest barrier to getting anything done well in China is the lack of
expertise and experience over there. They don't have the legions of
experienced engineers, production engineering and QC people over there that
we do here. They've got some good people, but they are spread pretty thin.
Nowhere near enough to serve all the factories they need running to employ
and feed their huge population. A joint development effort utilizing some
of the resoures we've got on this list with a production facility over there
might just be very effective. That's how outsourcing is done effectively.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn Saunders" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]xxx.edu>
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 7:26 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV


> What would we do for them, and why do you think it would help?
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> Personally, the only organizing that I would think would help
> significantly
> is organizing to show them what we could do for them if they were to get
> their act together.
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>


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Discussion Starter #13
Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV

Peter, do you know for a fact that they intentionally "burned their
customer" or was it possibly a misunderstanding as it may have been with the
batch for Queensland University? Apparently Rod Dilkes scored a good batch,
so apparemtly it is possible. Was it because Everspring Global did some QC,
had a contract, or becuase they spoke the language and the requirements were
clear?

This does illustrate what a good middleman in Hong Kong or Taiwan can get
done.

Marty

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV


> TS has demonstrated in the past that they are comfortable withl burning
> their customers and have shown no remorse for their past actions.
>
> Given their past actionsq it's entirely possible that they will screw
> their customers again in the future.
> A companies warranty is based on concept that they will do the right
> thing if they sell defective goods to their customers.
> Since they have intentionaly sold defective goods in the past and no
> supported them, what do you figure the chaces are that they eill honor
> their warranty in the future?
>
> Given their past actions, their warranty is worthless.
>


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Discussion Starter #14
Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV

I wanted to confirm that Jukka or Rich had absolutely nothing
to do with the original group buy I organized. No one had any
way of knowing we would get burned by doing this. 2 sample
100Ah cells I've personally tested were performing near advertised
specs (94Ah out at 1C rate), but then people who bought 100Ah
cells are quite satisfied. Only 90Ah ones were garbage.
This means TS *can* make performing cells. Question is if
it worth dealing with them, at least until they clean up
after themselves.

Victor

Chris Brune wrote:
> Hi,
> I don't believe Jukka or Rich were directly involved with this particular buy.
>
> I tested some of Gary's cells from this purchase. They performed essentially as John describes on that web site. If anything he understates their ability to put out signficant current without overheating, compared with what was specified. The output current capability is more like 0.3C versus 3C.
>
> Regards,
> Chris Brune
>
> -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: "Sam Maynard" <[email protected]>
>> Jukka? Rich? Can you validate or invalidate this?
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[email protected]>
>> To: <[email protected]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 9:51 AM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV
>>
>>
>>> At 07:01 AM 8/13/2007, jerryd wrote:
>>>> Since TS won't come clean, isn't it time to set
>>>> up a website warning others about them? 2 can play the
>>>> internet game. When their actions hurt the bottom line, they
>>>> will pay attention and the internet levels the playing
>>>> field!!
>>> Take a look at http://www.thundersky.us
>>>
>>> Needs more info on the page though. Anyone want to write up
>>> something better and more informative?
>>>
>>> --
>>> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[email protected]
>>> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>> _______________________________________________
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>
> _______________________________________________
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Discussion Starter #15
Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV

I know this for fact. Information came from former TS manger who shipped
these cells which were sitting in storage for several years (of course
with their knowledge, they are the ones who put it there).
Terminals got corroded, charge disappeared, no to mention that even if
they were cared for (kept charged and clean) shelf life irreversible
crippled them. I was told these cells were made for some Chinese
military (contractor?) but for whatever reason never made it there, so
sat at the factory as "dead investment". So when opportunity arrived
to recover some cost (at our expense), it of course was used.

Victor

Marty Hewes wrote:
> Peter, do you know for a fact that they intentionally "burned their
> customer" or was it possibly a misunderstanding as it may have been with the
> batch for Queensland University? Apparently Rod Dilkes scored a good batch,
> so apparemtly it is possible. Was it because Everspring Global did some QC,
> had a contract, or becuase they spoke the language and the requirements were
> clear?
>
> This does illustrate what a good middleman in Hong Kong or Taiwan can get
> done.
>
> Marty
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 8:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV
>
>
>> TS has demonstrated in the past that they are comfortable withl burning
>> their customers and have shown no remorse for their past actions.
>>
>> Given their past actionsq it's entirely possible that they will screw
>> their customers again in the future.
>> A companies warranty is based on concept that they will do the right
>> thing if they sell defective goods to their customers.
>> Since they have intentionaly sold defective goods in the past and no
>> supported them, what do you figure the chaces are that they eill honor
>> their warranty in the future?
>>
>> Given their past actions, their warranty is worthless.
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>

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Discussion Starter #16
Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV

You guys need to stop beating up a supplier for something that happened
years ago..
And you all don't know most of the details.

You folks are like a bunch of vultures...Once somebody has a issue you never
forget it.
There are a lot of you learning the hard way how , and how not to charge
Lion cells.

As far as I can tell TS cells of the current designs, meet or beat their
spec sheet ,if properly charged, discharged and managed.

I have 200 perfect cycles on a set of TS LFP40AHA cells.
We hope to collect 1000 cycles a month until they die, or become useless.

I don't hold and WON'T hold Thunder-Sky responsible for somebody else's
learning curve lessons.
If I screw up a set.. I will consider that a hard won lesson. And get on
with life. And not dwell on the fact that I still have much to learn.

Lets cut the TS trashing.. it's not helping any of us get reliable
affordable Lion cells and systems.

Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro




----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Maynard" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV


> Jukka? Rich? Can you validate or invalidate this?
>
>

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Discussion Starter #19
Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV

Rod Dilkes wrote:

> I can understand the TS factory's reluctance to offer a warranty in
> the circumstance where no battery management system was used.

A BMS had nothing to do with it. TS sold defective cells to begin with,
no BMS is meant (or can) fix bad cells.

I meant to use the product with real BMS. Does this make any difference?

> However it does nothing to help the grass roots EV industry by
> defaming one of the few battery manufacturers that will actually
> supply EV enthusiasts!

Are you suggesting to praise them for what they did in the sake of
potential future benefits for EV enthusiasts? Sort of like encourage
teenage thief to do the crime now (by letting it slide) because there is
a chance he will a good grown up person in future.

Victor

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Discussion Starter #20
Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV

This reminds me of certain parts of the world where dwelling on the past
creates such anger that making a better situation for the future just can't
happen. I'm not saying what happened in the past was acceptable. But it
was the past, and holding onto that anger and simply attacking them is not
going to get us where we'd like to be, having a reliable supplier. The
question is, is there a way to get from a troubled history, to a position
where we can count on them to supply us good batteries? Just lashing out at
them is non-productive. What do we need to do to quit dwelling on the past
and negotiate this to a mutually rewarding future? We need higher tech
batteries, few companies will talk to us, and this dwelling on the past to
the exclusion of moving forward is seriously getting in the way.

There is a huge difference between encouraging a teenage thief to do the
crime, and locking him up for life with no chance of parole for a bad
decision.

I'm a new person around here, and I would really like some decent batteries.
I'm getting really tired of hearing why I shouldn't have access to them
because of what someone (did I read that the "someone " doesn't even work
there anymore?) did to someone else a while back. I want to know what is
being negotiated to move forward.

I suggest reading the book "Culture Shock" by Kevin Sinclair. He's got some
very specific suggestions about how to get such problems corrected.

Marty

----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2007 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV


> Rod Dilkes wrote:
>
> > I can understand the TS factory's reluctance to offer a warranty in
> > the circumstance where no battery management system was used.
>
> A BMS had nothing to do with it. TS sold defective cells to begin with,
> no BMS is meant (or can) fix bad cells.
>
> I meant to use the product with real BMS. Does this make any difference?
>
> > However it does nothing to help the grass roots EV industry by
> > defaming one of the few battery manufacturers that will actually
> > supply EV enthusiasts!
>
> Are you suggesting to praise them for what they did in the sake of
> potential future benefits for EV enthusiasts? Sort of like encourage
> teenage thief to do the crime now (by letting it slide) because there is
> a chance he will a good grown up person in future.
>
> Victor
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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