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Discussion Starter #1
Re: EVs are slower than ICEs...for now

Hello to All,

Bill Dube wrote:

> I have to agree with Jim on this one. The article gave a very balanced
> account of the present state of EV drag racing in the context of ICE
> drag racing.


And I have to disagree, big time. Comparing a street legal sedan to an
all-out funny car is not by any stretch of the imagination, balanced!
That's exactly what Mr. Clark did when he cited White Zombie's 11.4 ET
and then in the same line, said it was 6.4 seconds off the best top fuel
record...you call that balanced?

>
> We aren't _the_ very fastest ....yet.


I nor anyone in our crew, nor any other team of EV racers have ever made
a claim like that.

> It is a fact that the fastest EVs are not as fast as the fastest ICEs
> on the drag strip at this time.


Who has ever said this? What we do say and what we do, is compare our
EV's performance to similar gas cars' performance...and this is
important...in the same racing class. I compare my street legal EV that
is driven to the track to other street legal gas cars driven to the
track, and I never, ever say we are faster than any gas car...ever. I do
point out when we are the quickest car at the track on a given night. I
also, to help non-car nut folks appreciate what our EV's performance is
like, often compare our car to factory available street cars. This is
valid and fun, as it raises quite a few eyebrows to learn that a
backyard converted electric car can waste a Porsche, Vette, or Ferrari
in the 1/4 mile drag!

>To argue against this is foolish.

To argue that our EV is quicker than 'any' other gas car is for sure,
foolish, because there will always be somebody quicker and faster. We
don't do that, and we never have. To argue against stupid remarks like
Mr. Clark's however, is smart, not foolish. It's smart because it
corrects misinformation that his bad writing implies...comparing a
street legal electric car's 1/4 mile performance to a several thousand
hp all-out funny car...now that, is foolish! It's also foolish 'not' to
speak up and correct misinformation when it presents itself. The
comparison of a street legal sedan, whether electric or gas powered, to
a $250,000 nitromethane burning funny car or nitromethane burning rail
dragster is misinformation if it implies to an uneducated reader that
the two are comparable...and again, that;'s exactly what Clark did.

> To be insulted by this statement of fact is hubris.


You are muddying up the waters here. I was not insulted by the statement
of fact that you and your race-only drag bike are a few seconds off from
the very top dog nitromethane burning drag bike...that was a valid
comparison, because by your own yardstick, you're out to ultimately meet
and then exceed that nitromethane bike's potential...and for the record,
I and I'm sure all other EV fans are 100% behind you all the way, and
very proud of your accomplishments to date!

What I was offended by...and I made it quite clear, was his absolutely
stupid comparison of my car, a car anyone with a brain knows is racing
in a street legal regular car class, to one of the most radical machines
ever to run down a track, a nitromethane burning funny car or rail (he
also exhibited bad writing by not making which top fuel machine he was
comparing to, clear).

Here's the best way to make myself as clear as possible. If Mr. Clark
was trying to say that EVs are getting quicker, but are still a ways off
from the baddest of the bad nitromethane machines, he could have written
it this way, and I would not have anything to say:

In the most popular professional division, Top Fuel Racing, dragsters
with large rear wheels and narrow bodies reach speeds exceeding 330 m.p.h.
(530 km/h) in 4.6 seconds. Drivers are practically flattened against their
seats during their short ride, meeting more g-forces than astronauts
during a
space shuttle launch. No one in the world of racing EVs are challenging
this upper
end of racing machines at this moment, though with continued battery
development,
it's only a matter of time.

But electric drag racers are increasingly showing up at drag strips
across the country to show what they can do. White Zombie, an old
Datsun economy car converted to electric power is full street legal and
has run the quarter-mile in 11.46 seconds - that's quicker than
a 2007 505-horsepower Corvette ZO6, one of the quickest production
vehicles available to the general public.

Their vehicles are posting faster and faster times at amateur meets, but
the pure racing EVs have a ways to go before matching professional world
record times. The quickest quarter-mile time by an electric vehicle is the
KillaCycle's 8.16 seconds - that's 2.36 seconds off the nitromethane
world record for drag bikes set by Larry "Spiderman" McBride last year.

--------------------------------------

See, it's easy to be clear, easy to be fair, easy to not make an apples
to oranges comparison, as did Clark.

See Ya...John Wayland
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Re: EVs are slower than ICEs...for now

Hey John and Roderick and all!

Aaron Clark from AP called while I was on vacation last week to
follow up with questions concerning the article.

He had asked where I thought EV racing was heading and was interested
in the amount of cars that show up and the amount of sanctioned races
we have each year. I gave a pretty positive response but in
hindsight should have re-emphasized the tremendous leaps EVs have
made these past 10 years. But I didn't think it warranted much
emphasis since he was there to see it for himself at your race! It's
right there on YouTube. You beat a hot Mustang for crying out loud.

But I don't think the point should be to beat the fastest ICE car, at
least not right now. Especially, if Aaron and the NHRA compare the
Zombie to the fastest ICE cars which are Top Fueler Funny Cars and
Dragsters which don't even use gas. They use alcohol or something
exotic formulated specifically for racing, with just enough fuel to
make the run. And they have big corporate sponsors behind them. The
Army being the one sponsoring the fastest dragster (from what I
remember) Plus you need a special NHRA license to drive under 10 or 9
seconds in the NHRA. If Aaron and the NHRA is comparing the Zombie to
those types of vehicles, it's not even a fair comparison by a long
shot. Those are completely different vehicles altogether. The step
above that is the Sportsman series racers and they are running full
cages and are completely tubbed out. The Zombie isn't even in the
NEDRA "Extreme Class" which besides the "Dragster" classes are the
closest classes we have to those vehicles.

The NHRA should know better then to make that comparison with Zombie.
They themselves should have give Zombie credit for the competition
it's giving cars in it's respective ICE classes. That's where the
Zombie is knocking off the competition. That NHRA official didn't
even acknowledge the 60 foot times or is he even paying attention?

I think the NHRA was wayyyy out of line here with that remark, but
not surprising.

OK, true we aren't there yet. But at least make a fairer comparison
between the respective ICE and EV classes when spouting off assumptions.

The Zombie with "two motors on a skewer" handily beat out a 400 ci
Pontiac muscle car for crying out loud. I'm surprised the NHRA hasn't
considered the ramifications of those little electric motors beating
out the big blocks that have dominated the drag strips for all these
years. That's where the story should be.

I think we will be there very soon and will have that NHRA character
eating his own words.

Chip Gribben
NEDRA
http://www.nedra.com


Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:

> From: John Wayland <[email protected]>
> Date: July 29, 2007 9:21:02 PM EDT
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: EVs are slower than ICEs...for now
>
>
> Hello to All,
>
> Bill Dube wrote:
>
>> I have to agree with Jim on this one. The article gave a very
>> balanced account of the present state of EV drag racing in the
>> context of ICE drag racing.
>
>
> And I have to disagree, big time. Comparing a street legal sedan to
> an all-out funny car is not by any stretch of the imagination,
> balanced! That's exactly what Mr. Clark did when he cited White
> Zombie's 11.4 ET and then in the same line, said it was 6.4 seconds
> off the best top fuel record...you call that balanced?
>
>>
>> We aren't _the_ very fastest ....yet.
>
>
> I nor anyone in our crew, nor any other team of EV racers have ever
> made a claim like that.
>
>> It is a fact that the fastest EVs are not as fast as the fastest
>> ICEs on the drag strip at this time.
>
>
> Who has ever said this? What we do say and what we do, is compare
> our EV's performance to similar gas cars' performance...and this is
> important...in the same racing class. I compare my street legal EV
> that is driven to the track to other street legal gas cars driven
> to the track, and I never, ever say we are faster than any gas
> car...ever. I do point out when we are the quickest car at the
> track on a given night. I also, to help non-car nut folks
> appreciate what our EV's performance is like, often compare our car
> to factory available street cars. This is valid and fun, as it
> raises quite a few eyebrows to learn that a backyard converted
> electric car can waste a Porsche, Vette, or Ferrari in the 1/4 mile
> drag!
>
> >To argue against this is foolish.
>
> To argue that our EV is quicker than 'any' other gas car is for
> sure, foolish, because there will always be somebody quicker and
> faster. We don't do that, and we never have. To argue against
> stupid remarks like Mr. Clark's however, is smart, not foolish.
> It's smart because it corrects misinformation that his bad writing
> implies...comparing a street legal electric car's 1/4 mile
> performance to a several thousand hp all-out funny car...now that,
> is foolish! It's also foolish 'not' to speak up and correct
> misinformation when it presents itself. The comparison of a street
> legal sedan, whether electric or gas powered, to a $250,000
> nitromethane burning funny car or nitromethane burning rail
> dragster is misinformation if it implies to an uneducated reader
> that the two are comparable...and again, that;'s exactly what Clark
> did.
>
>> To be insulted by this statement of fact is hubris.
>
>
> You are muddying up the waters here. I was not insulted by the
> statement of fact that you and your race-only drag bike are a few
> seconds off from the very top dog nitromethane burning drag
> bike...that was a valid comparison, because by your own yardstick,
> you're out to ultimately meet and then exceed that nitromethane
> bike's potential...and for the record, I and I'm sure all other EV
> fans are 100% behind you all the way, and very proud of your
> accomplishments to date!
>
> What I was offended by...and I made it quite clear, was his
> absolutely stupid comparison of my car, a car anyone with a brain
> knows is racing in a street legal regular car class, to one of the
> most radical machines ever to run down a track, a nitromethane
> burning funny car or rail (he also exhibited bad writing by not
> making which top fuel machine he was comparing to, clear).
>
> Here's the best way to make myself as clear as possible. If Mr.
> Clark was trying to say that EVs are getting quicker, but are still
> a ways off from the baddest of the bad nitromethane machines, he
> could have written it this way, and I would not have anything to say:
>
> In the most popular professional division, Top Fuel Racing, dragsters
> with large rear wheels and narrow bodies reach speeds exceeding 330
> m.p.h.
> (530 km/h) in 4.6 seconds. Drivers are practically flattened
> against their
> seats during their short ride, meeting more g-forces than
> astronauts during a
> space shuttle launch. No one in the world of racing EVs are
> challenging this upper
> end of racing machines at this moment, though with continued
> battery development,
> it's only a matter of time.
>
> But electric drag racers are increasingly showing up at drag strips
> across the country to show what they can do. White Zombie, an old
> Datsun economy car converted to electric power is full street legal
> and
> has run the quarter-mile in 11.46 seconds - that's quicker than
> a 2007 505-horsepower Corvette ZO6, one of the quickest production
> vehicles available to the general public.
>
> Their vehicles are posting faster and faster times at amateur
> meets, but
> the pure racing EVs have a ways to go before matching professional
> world
> record times. The quickest quarter-mile time by an electric vehicle
> is the
> KillaCycle's 8.16 seconds - that's 2.36 seconds off the nitromethane
> world record for drag bikes set by Larry "Spiderman" McBride last
> year.
>
> --------------------------------------
>
> See, it's easy to be clear, easy to be fair, easy to not make an
> apples to oranges comparison, as did Clark.
>
> See Ya...John Wayland
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Re: EVs are slower than ICEs...for now

> It is a fact that the fastest EVs are not as fast as the fastest ICEs
> on the drag strip at this time.

It doesn't matte how fast you are, or if you drive an IC powered vehicle or an EV. Someone is always faster. Comparing a top fuel funny car to a Datsun is just silly.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Re: EVs are slower than ICEs...for now

Hi Folks

I tend to agree with Chip's take on this subject though I also think some of
us may be taking the comments of a reporter who obviously knows very little
about drag racing much too seriously.

The NHRA has been around for well over 50 years, NEDRA has existed for ten
years.

The folks at the NHRA are certainly stuck in their belief systems and won't
be accepting any kind of major paradigm shift until it slaps them in the
face.

I believe that EV racers are catching up by leaps and bounds and that the
ICE racers aren't going to know what hit them till it is over and done with.
Especially as far as street-driven vehicles are concerned. I think that with
the right EV component set, ICE folks are already at a disadvantage from
stoplight to stoplight. This has already been proven over and over. Max
torque at -0- RPM

ICE drag racing is a -very- mature technology, there are not going to be any
-major- leaps like EV drag racing. [IIRC, pro-stock competitors are within a
couple thousandths of a second of each other, not to mention top fuel and
funny cars]

We have no idea what the near future may bring. Who knows, we may pull our
electricity from the ether like Nikola Tesla :^D

Seriously, just look at the rapid advancements that backyard builders with
little money are doing.

If folks were to throw millions of dollars at EV drag racing I have a
feeling that it would advance exponentially almost overnight.

I would betcha that if someone that could afford it thought they could beat
nitromethane burning vehicles in the 1/4 mile with battery electric vehicles
the money would appear and the vehicles would be built.

I know that all it takes to interest folks in hot EVs is to get Joe
Sixpack/NASCAR dads in the driver's [or passenger's] seat. I have driven the
White Zombie and Gone Postal. Once you have experienced the brute torque an
electric drag racin' vehicle can provide you will never look back.

This is after more than 20 years experience as an ICE mechanic and
hot-rodder.

And... you can go get the groceries in the Zombie or Gone Postal in almost
total silence with the manners of a Cadillac and no one will ever know of
the inherent capabilities of these vehicles until they see you pulling away
from them like a shot out of a cannon [just in case some missed this fact,
the the KillaCycle posted the quickest 60' time -ever recorded- at PIR. Yes,
I know, it is not a street-legal vehicle, though if you dressed it up like
one you could still get the groceries with it and no one would have a clue
as to the capabilities]

NEDRA invites all EVers and EVs to come to the 10th Anniversary NEDRA
Nationals at Portland International Raceway on August 17 and 18. It is
shaping up to be our biggest EVent ever with more competitors in one place
than ever before.

More info in the near future here on the EVDL.


Roy LeMeur
NEDRA Northwest Regional Director
www.nedra.com

_________________________________________________________________
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
 

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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Re: EVs are slower than ICEs...for now

Lets not forget that while EVs are getting faster, IC cars are getting faster too. Heck, a late model V6 Accord has as much horse power as a mid/early 80's Corvette. New IC cars aren't getting any slower.

Brian


---- Roy LeMeur <[email protected]> wrote:

=============
Hi Folks

I tend to agree with Chip's take on this subject though I also think some of
us may be taking the comments of a reporter who obviously knows very little
about drag racing much too seriously.

The NHRA has been around for well over 50 years, NEDRA has existed for ten
years.

The folks at the NHRA are certainly stuck in their belief systems and won't
be accepting any kind of major paradigm shift until it slaps them in the
face.

I believe that EV racers are catching up by leaps and bounds and that the
ICE racers aren't going to know what hit them till it is over and done with.
Especially as far as street-driven vehicles are concerned. I think that with
the right EV component set, ICE folks are already at a disadvantage from
stoplight to stoplight. This has already been proven over and over. Max
torque at -0- RPM

ICE drag racing is a -very- mature technology, there are not going to be any
-major- leaps like EV drag racing. [IIRC, pro-stock competitors are within a
couple thousandths of a second of each other, not to mention top fuel and
funny cars]

We have no idea what the near future may bring. Who knows, we may pull our
electricity from the ether like Nikola Tesla :^D

Seriously, just look at the rapid advancements that backyard builders with
little money are doing.

If folks were to throw millions of dollars at EV drag racing I have a
feeling that it would advance exponentially almost overnight.

I would betcha that if someone that could afford it thought they could beat
nitromethane burning vehicles in the 1/4 mile with battery electric vehicles
the money would appear and the vehicles would be built.

I know that all it takes to interest folks in hot EVs is to get Joe
Sixpack/NASCAR dads in the driver's [or passenger's] seat. I have driven the
White Zombie and Gone Postal. Once you have experienced the brute torque an
electric drag racin' vehicle can provide you will never look back.

This is after more than 20 years experience as an ICE mechanic and
hot-rodder.

And... you can go get the groceries in the Zombie or Gone Postal in almost
total silence with the manners of a Cadillac and no one will ever know of
the inherent capabilities of these vehicles until they see you pulling away
from them like a shot out of a cannon [just in case some missed this fact,
the the KillaCycle posted the quickest 60' time -ever recorded- at PIR. Yes,
I know, it is not a street-legal vehicle, though if you dressed it up like
one you could still get the groceries with it and no one would have a clue
as to the capabilities]

NEDRA invites all EVers and EVs to come to the 10th Anniversary NEDRA
Nationals at Portland International Raceway on August 17 and 18. It is
shaping up to be our biggest EVent ever with more competitors in one place
than ever before.

More info in the near future here on the EVDL.


Roy LeMeur
NEDRA Northwest Regional Director
www.nedra.com

_________________________________________________________________
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
 
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