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Discussion Starter #1
Re: Is GM Playing Games with the Volt?

nothing much about the volt in the article
someone should track down the prototype and see if they are actually
working on it. some industrial espionage if you will

I'm guessing they are still not committed to it. We have to keep the
pressure on them

Dan

Marc Geller wrote:
> Is GM Playing Games with the Volt?
>
> http://www.plugsandcars.blogspot.com
>
>
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Re: Is GM Playing Games with the Volt?

God! for GM to put the Volt on the back burner right now would be a huge mistake for the company. General Motors NEEDS a car like this. The company has an image deficit compared to Toyota and Honda. I sure hope they get the Volt into production before Toyota gets their plug-in Prius to market.

Brian


---- Dan Frederiksen <[email protected]> wrote:

=============
nothing much about the volt in the article
someone should track down the prototype and see if they are actually
working on it. some industrial espionage if you will

I'm guessing they are still not committed to it. We have to keep the
pressure on them

Dan

Marc Geller wrote:
> Is GM Playing Games with the Volt?
>
> http://www.plugsandcars.blogspot.com
>
>
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Re: Is GM Playing Games with the Volt?

I hope they do too but satanists are known for their poor grasp on right
and wrong. It's not like they were unware of the benefits of the EV1
when they killed that..
When they smashed them in the desert..
I would be quite surprised if they did the right thing on their own from
now on. even just a little right

Dan

Brian Jackson wrote:
> God! for GM to put the Volt on the back burner right now would be a huge mistake for the company. General Motors NEEDS a car like this. The company has an image deficit compared to Toyota and Honda. I sure hope they get the Volt into production before Toyota gets their plug-in Prius to market.
>
> Brian
>
>
> ---- Dan Frederiksen <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> =============
> nothing much about the volt in the article
> someone should track down the prototype and see if they are actually
> working on it. some industrial espionage if you will
>
> I'm guessing they are still not committed to it. We have to keep the
> pressure on them
>
> Dan
>
> Marc Geller wrote:
>
>> Is GM Playing Games with the Volt?
>>
>> http://www.plugsandcars.blogspot.com
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
 

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Discussion Starter #4
RE: Is GM Playing Games with the Volt?

They have been posting video clips online with Q&As and progress reports.
Some of these feature Bob Lutz. Lutz comes across as a defensive and
arrogant prick. In one of the most recent clips he responds to a question
by saying "I don't owe you anything!". That's GM's "take it or shove it"
attitude towards the consumer. Lutz obviously feels GM only answers to
shareholders and has no responsibility to society as a whole. This was in
the context of clean diesel where Lutz talks about how it's too expensive,
yada yada yada and how HCCI will be good enough. Meanwhile, VW and a couple
others are about to roll out 50-state capable clean diesels. So they must
know something GM doesn't.

If the Volt does come out, it is again, like the EV1, going to be fighting
against a corporate environment which is only begrudgingly committed to it.



-----Original Message-----
nothing much about the volt in the article
someone should track down the prototype and see if they are actually
working on it. some industrial espionage if you will

I'm guessing they are still not committed to it. We have to keep the
pressure on them
 

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Discussion Starter #6
RE: Is GM Playing Games with the Volt?

Bob "I don't owe you anything!" Lutz:

http://nexttothetoilet.wordpress.com/tag/bob-lutz/




Bob Lutz on making excuses about not doing clean diesel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXA22Q0qXNM

He talks about how urea is required for clean diesels. Some of the smaller
50-state cars coming over use an innovative system that DOES NOT require
urea.

He also doesn't even mention the benefits of diesel as far as being able to
run biodiesel and SVO/WVO. That's completely off his radar.





Volt progress report:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNbNwst3_C4




The Volt is a larger, heavier car than the EV1, and not quite as
streamlined. If price is no object, like Tesla's approach, fine, but I
think it is going to be a challenge to bring it to market under $30K with
the amount of lithium batteries it will take to give it a 40 mile range. I
would not be surprised to see specs change last minute on it that will
completely deflate the current hype. Like they could do some kind of
financing shenanigans on the battery pack like I've been hearing about.
Making cars affordable takes a lot of work across the board.





-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Dan Frederiksen
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 3:37 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Is GM Playing Games with the Volt?


[email protected] wrote:
> They have been posting video clips online with Q&As and progress
> reports.
>
got links?
do you know where they are supposed to be working on it?

Dan
 

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Discussion Starter #7
RE: Is GM Playing Games with the Volt?

GM has a burden that VW and other auto manufacturers do not... the UAW. The UAW is so incredibly expensive that GM can not afford to sell high-tech cars that are expensive to develop, expensive to manufacture, and only marginal on sales. That is why they went so gung ho with SUVs. SUVs are cheap to design, cheap to make, and they sell like mad! This was GM's reasoning when they canned the EV1. I know, there are other reasons for the EV1's demise. GM didn't see how the EV1 would help the company assuming it would never sell terribly well. Toyota went the other way with the Prius even after the Rav4 went belly up. The Prius is not a high volume vehicle like the Camry or 4-Runner, but it is a fantastic PR machine. It does not make the company much money directly. Indeed, many argue that it is sold at a loss. However, Toyota is reaping the rewards of the green image that the Prius has afforded them and getting ready to replace GM as the world's largest auto manufacturer because !
of it.

If GM continues to lose market share, the company may have trouble maintaining its huge retiree benefits and pension programs. These programs are already in trouble. Shoot, Delphi, a subsidiary of GM, declared bankruptcy about a year ago. General Motors does not need to save the world with its Volt. General Motors NEEDS to save itself.

I would even argue that the US needs GM to get this one right. Ever hear the saying, "What's good for GM is good for the US?" It's true. If GM goes down, the US economy will probably take a big hit. Remember the labor strike of... uh... I think it was 1994? That strike stopped production at GM for a month and a half. That event knocked a full percentage point off the United States' growth rate for that quarter. Imagine what could happen if something really big happened to GM. In 94, GM was the world's 3rd largest corporation. I'm not sure where it stands today, but it's still pretty big. Big enough that it employs, either directly or indirectly, nearly one million people.

Neither GM nor the US can afford to have GM screw this one up.
---- [email protected] wrote:

=============
They have been posting video clips online with Q&As and progress reports.
Some of these feature Bob Lutz. Lutz comes across as a defensive and
arrogant prick. In one of the most recent clips he responds to a question
by saying "I don't owe you anything!". That's GM's "take it or shove it"
attitude towards the consumer. Lutz obviously feels GM only answers to
shareholders and has no responsibility to society as a whole. This was in
the context of clean diesel where Lutz talks about how it's too expensive,
yada yada yada and how HCCI will be good enough. Meanwhile, VW and a couple
others are about to roll out 50-state capable clean diesels. So they must
know something GM doesn't.

If the Volt does come out, it is again, like the EV1, going to be fighting
against a corporate environment which is only begrudgingly committed to it.



-----Original Message-----
nothing much about the volt in the article
someone should track down the prototype and see if they are actually
working on it. some industrial espionage if you will

I'm guessing they are still not committed to it. We have to keep the
pressure on them
 

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Discussion Starter #8
RE: Is GM Playing Games with the Volt?

Hahaha that's great! He really comes across pretty rough there. Man, was that live or something? Why didn't they edit that "I don't owe you anything" line out?

He is certainly right about GM's growth in the developing world. GM is China's largest auto manufacturer. According to my Father in Law, who visits China every year and who holds a PHD in Chinese history, GM cars, and particularly Buicks, are viewed as being high class and even aristocratic in Chinese society. Way to go GM! At least they're making money somewhere. haha

Brian


---- [email protected] wrote:

=============
Bob "I don't owe you anything!" Lutz:

http://nexttothetoilet.wordpress.com/tag/bob-lutz/




Bob Lutz on making excuses about not doing clean diesel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXA22Q0qXNM

He talks about how urea is required for clean diesels. Some of the smaller
50-state cars coming over use an innovative system that DOES NOT require
urea.

He also doesn't even mention the benefits of diesel as far as being able to
run biodiesel and SVO/WVO. That's completely off his radar.





Volt progress report:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNbNwst3_C4




The Volt is a larger, heavier car than the EV1, and not quite as
streamlined. If price is no object, like Tesla's approach, fine, but I
think it is going to be a challenge to bring it to market under $30K with
the amount of lithium batteries it will take to give it a 40 mile range. I
would not be surprised to see specs change last minute on it that will
completely deflate the current hype. Like they could do some kind of
financing shenanigans on the battery pack like I've been hearing about.
Making cars affordable takes a lot of work across the board.





-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Dan Frederiksen
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 3:37 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Is GM Playing Games with the Volt?


[email protected] wrote:
> They have been posting video clips online with Q&As and progress
> reports.
>
got links?
do you know where they are supposed to be working on it?

Dan
 

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Discussion Starter #9
RE: Is GM Playing Games with the Volt?

Hello everybody:

> GM has a burden that VW and other auto manufacturers do not... the UAW.

Well, that is not true. Volkswagen has to deal with the 'IG Metall', one
of the most powerful unions in the world. And, let's not forget: German
workers work about 38 1/2 hours a week, have at least 18-20 days of paid
vacation and , more or less, unlimited sick days. My cousin works at VW
(quality control), he makes 20 Euros an hour (currently about 23 US$). So
- how do THEY pull it off? In a country that charges about 5 Bucks/Gallon
of gas?

While the transition may be painful, just because America needs 'em
doesn't necessarily mean we should let 'em do whatever the heck they want,
maybe even use tax dollars to delay the inevitable downfall.

America has, like a lot of western countries, lost a lot of big
manufacturing businesses over the last two decades. The only way we and
others have, is to use our (still) leading knowledge of advanced
technologies. If GM chooses to ignore that advantage and tries to play it
the old fashioned way, they will go down. How long do you think they will
be able to sell their cheapo trucks in Russia or China until those folks
down there catch up?

GM needs the Volt. It might be their last chance.

mm.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Re: Is GM Playing Games with the Volt?

He way can do it is the way geroge washington did it.

Put tariffs on low wage intrusive foreign competitros in order to keep
essential industries in the us.

Washington did it to prevent britain from taking over our industires.

If it was good enough for washington its good enough for us.


Michaela Merz wrote:
>
> Hello everybody:
>
>> GM has a burden that VW and other auto manufacturers do not... the
>> UAW.
>
> Well, that is not true. Volkswagen has to deal with the 'IG Metall',
> one
> of the most powerful unions in the world. And, let's not forget: German
> workers work about 38 1/2 hours a week, have at least 18-20 days of
> paid
> vacation and , more or less, unlimited sick days. My cousin works at VW
> (quality control), he makes 20 Euros an hour (currently about 23 US$).
> So
> - how do THEY pull it off? In a country that charges about 5
> Bucks/Gallon
> of gas?
>
> While the transition may be painful, just because America needs 'em
> doesn't necessarily mean we should let 'em do whatever the heck they
> want,
> maybe even use tax dollars to delay the inevitable downfall.
>
> America has, like a lot of western countries, lost a lot of big
> manufacturing businesses over the last two decades. The only way we and
> others have, is to use our (still) leading knowledge of advanced
> technologies. If GM chooses to ignore that advantage and tries to play
> it
> the old fashioned way, they will go down. How long do you think they
> will
> be able to sell their cheapo trucks in Russia or China until those
> folks
> down there catch up?
>
> GM needs the Volt. It might be their last chance.
>
> mm.

www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.

www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Re: Is GM Playing Games with the Volt?

Also remembe r foreign manufactures don't have to pay for workers
healthcare ebcuaase they have a universal healthcare systems which
provides healthcare with the elast overhead. And thus lowest cost.
America has a for profit healthcare system was not surprisingly has
produced the most expensive health care in the world. Not surprising
since profits are a percentage of charges.


Michaela Merz wrote:
>
> Hello everybody:
>
>> GM has a burden that VW and other auto manufacturers do not... the
>> UAW.
>
> Well, that is not true. Volkswagen has to deal with the 'IG Metall',
> one
> of the most powerful unions in the world. And, let's not forget: German
> workers work about 38 1/2 hours a week, have at least 18-20 days of
> paid
> vacation and , more or less, unlimited sick days. My cousin works at VW
> (quality control), he makes 20 Euros an hour (currently about 23 US$).
> So
> - how do THEY pull it off? In a country that charges about 5
> Bucks/Gallon
> of gas?
>
> While the transition may be painful, just because America needs 'em
> doesn't necessarily mean we should let 'em do whatever the heck they
> want,
> maybe even use tax dollars to delay the inevitable downfall.
>
> America has, like a lot of western countries, lost a lot of big
> manufacturing businesses over the last two decades. The only way we and
> others have, is to use our (still) leading knowledge of advanced
> technologies. If GM chooses to ignore that advantage and tries to play
> it
> the old fashioned way, they will go down. How long do you think they
> will
> be able to sell their cheapo trucks in Russia or China until those
> folks
> down there catch up?
>
> GM needs the Volt. It might be their last chance.
>
> mm.

www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.

www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
RE: Is GM Playing Games with the Volt?

Funny you should mention this about GM and china.

When I was a kid, like in 7th grade, I lived in Amman Jordan. In that
country, the taxis are mercedes, the king drove around in Volvo
motorcades and the bedowin had a nissan pickup. The funny part was the
most famous actor drove a Ford POS (even hollywood called the boxy 70's
erra fords POS) Kids would polish the hubcaps as it drove slowly thru
the streets.

In that day the Dinar was equal to 3.3 Dollars, the tarrif was 100% for
importing a Ford as Ford had a large Jewish stock ownership and so for
political reasons things like pepsi, fritos, and fords were really
expensive. Never saw a GM product in that country. They would take the
price and change the word from dollars to dinar. so that trippled the
price, then they apply the import terrif and a $5000 ford was worth $30K
(ok, this was a few years ago!)

What has this got to do with EV's? Not much. But I was wondering. We
have heard from people in Austrailia,Britain,India Is there anyone in
the middle east that can comment on the growth or lack of growth of EV's
there?
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Re: Is GM Playing Games with the Volt?

Lots of points here.. I'll keep my comments short :)

- As already mentioned, the UAW is not an issue. Toyota and VW both
have larger and more onerous worker compensation burdens and make
wheelbarrows full of cash.

- The issue is two pronged. The US is practicing unfettered
capitalism.. the rest of the ENTIRE PLANET is not. Except for
developing nations, every country out there (yes even China, although
it is terribly biased) has some sort of support structure to buoy up
the people's ability to get good paying jobs and to manufacture goods
at a profit. Japan has low cost loans, Asymmetrical Tariffs, and a
Non-profit healthcare system, as well as a retirement benefit system.
And so on.

If the flippin administration REALLY wants GM and etc to succeed, and
to be technology leaders (which they are not, at this point) then it
would force them through special incentives, low cost loans and so on,
all conditional on producing EVs, and PHEVs. GM shouldn't have to do
basic research into other technologies for propulsion though.. that is
a University thing, and the patents should be shared at some nominal
fee.

One more thing that could be done is heavy investment into battery
technology, and to produce licensable patents for that as well.

All of this is so darn simple in concept.. the only thing that mucks
it up is ideologues.

--T

PS: As far as EVs in other countries.. most of the forces at work here
are at work across the world. Chevron's suit against Toyota/Panasonic,
for example. Ultimately, we need to trump the damn oil companies to
get this mainstream. People say "Hey if GM could make money from a car
that ran on pig crap they would sell it" Well sure, except you
forget.. these guys in the oil companies play golf with the guys in
the car companies. Even given that, though, It's happening from the
Grassroots.. lets hope it sticks!!
 
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