[pete c]

As EVs become more common and start to chip away at the revenue generated by fossil fuel road taxes, you just know someone is gonna decide there needs to be a way to recoup it. the question is, if you charge off the grid, how do you differentiate between electrons used to propel your car and toast a bagel?

Electricity enjoys a big advantage over fossil fuels on a price per mile basis. This is partly due to it not having a road tax levied on it. I think it will still be cheaper if a comparable road tax was added, but, i'm not certain of this.

Does anyone have real numbers on this?

The next question is should we pay road tax for electricity. I believe we should since electric cars have to use the same roads.

 

[gojo]

When figuring the cost per mile, why not figure in the cost of the batteries? L/A being the only ones I am aquainted with will go at the most 20,000 miles, and cost $2000 to replace. That is 10 cents a mile, so lets add that on to the 3 cents the electricity costs and we are already paying more then ICE's per mile. Electric cars are not money savers at this point and time.

Maybe the LIFE batteries are what the road tax needs to be added to. As they drop in price and increase in quality, they may at some point be cheaper then gas, and an added road tax to the batteries may make sense.

How about the air cars? You figure that one out.

 

[aeroscott]

if road tax is added to 5k or 10k cycles it would like paying 10 or twenty years of road tax up front . looks like gps or some type of reporting speedo . I hate taxes but we "commies" need roads so I'll take the reporting speedo .ps my power comes from off grid solar

 

[Ziggythewiz]

While you're at it, why not make it fair and have everyone pay a fixed amount per mile driven per pound of vehicle. So a trucker will pay something like 40000*120000*x and an EV driver will pay 2200*6000*x...now, when you do the math you find out that truckers should pay ~99.9% and EV drivers should pay ~ .1%, so why not just round it off and have the truckers pay %100 and EV drivers can pay nothing.

Oh wait...if you do it my way the people who wear down and destroy the roads will end up paying for them without sharing the cost with everyone else...

 

[Brute Force]

Nebraska has had an alternative fuel tax since the mid '90s. Once a year I pay a flat $75 fee for my right to drive on the public roads.

 

[Duncan]

Hi Ziggy

everyone pay a fixed amount per mile driven per pound of vehicle.

Problem with that is that road damage goes up with the forth power of axle load
(so my civil engineer buddies tell me)

So a trucker will pay something like 40000*120000*x and an EV driver will pay 2200*6000*x.

That gives 4800 million X for the truck
and 13.2 million X for the EV - 363 times as much

The true figure to represent road wear and build costs would be

Proportion of miles traveled - 120,000 / 6000 = 20 : 1

Damage caused per mile - (40,000/2,200) to the power 4 = 18 to the power 4 = 105,000

105,000 x 20 = 2,100,000 two million times as much!!

We are all subsidizing road haulage! - if these guys had to pay their wack there would be a lot more goods shipped by rail!
(and goods in the stores would cost a bit more)

 

[Ziggythewiz]

105,000 x 20 = 2,100,000 two million times as much!!

We are all subsidizing road haulage! - if these guys had to pay their wack there would be a lot more goods shipped by rail!
(and goods in the stores would cost a bit more)

Thanks for the correction. I guess I was grossly overestimating our fair share

Something that weighs less than 5% of a road's rated capacity isn't going to wear it down at all. Not that much of any car related laws make sense. Many places exempt all diesel vehicles from emissions tests because they're too dirty anyway. Never mind that they put out more crap in 5 min than a typical car does in a year...

 

[aeroscott]

as we worked out months ago trucks should be the first converted to ev's . roads should have inductive charging for all . I didn't know how bad the 4Th power could be . big corps externalizing costs. I want to externalize my costs to corps plus payback .

 

[idarusskie]

Trains should be first. First trains should be in places like L.A. or San Francisco. You already have diesel electric trains so the engineering know how is there. It is just the cost of installing all the wires. Forget about high speed rail.

 

[Duncan]

Hi Ziggy

Many places exempt all diesel vehicles from emissions tests because they're too dirty anyway. Never mind that they put out more crap in 5 min than a typical car does in a year...

That was true ten - twenty years ago
Modern diesels put out less of most pollutants than petrol engines,

The probable reason that they are not checked would be the cost of the equipment to measure them

If you run a modern diesel through an emissions check it will pass with flying colors - even if it would fail a diesel emissions test

If you are in a closed space with a running petrol engine you will die!(carbon monoxide)
With a diesel you will only die when it has used all of the oxygen available

 

[PhantomPholly]

as we worked out months ago trucks should be the first converted to ev's .

That is not a terrible idea - if the batteries for them wouldn't cost over $500,000 as they would to propel a 50,000 lb truck over the mountains. Maybe some big transport chain would pony up for removable batteries and create swap stations - otherwise they would not have enough range to go trans-continental.

roads should have inductive charging for all .

OMG I can't imagine what this would cost or how badly it would undermine the durability of the roads... Let's forget about this one please...

 

[aeroscott]

Trains should be first. First trains should be in places like L.A. or San Francisco. You already have diesel electric trains so the engineering know how is there. It is just the cost of installing all the wires. Forget about high speed rail.

yes trains , but I meant cars verses trucks . trucks handle weight much better then cars . We worked this over on the forum say 6 months ago .

 

[dtbaker]

if the batteries for them wouldn't cost over $500,000 as they would to propel a 50,000 lb truck over the mountains.

I'd predict that large transport, long haul, boats, trains, and planes will move to algae-oil diesel while urban/sub-urban goes all-electric.

road tax should move to annual state inspections for actual miles and weight... to inspire smaller vehicles and fewer miles. oil/gas company subsidies could go away, and we wean ourselves from gas tax to maintain roads.

 

[PhantomPholly]

I like that idea better (trains). A box car full of batteries could be swapped out much more easily than batteries on a truck, and would only require a few minutes' stop to "recharge" by swapping out cars and plugging in.

 

[JRP3]

Trains are so much more efficient than trucks they could continue to run on liquid diesel, bio and petroleum based, and still reduce pollution and oil usage.

 

[pete c]

EV big rigs is a horrible idea. batteries would be way too heavy.

I would like to see more trailers piggybacked on flatbed rail cars. I would think that a mile long freight train pulling trailers would be much more efficient than each one being pulled by a truck.

This would also allow many truck drivers to work regionally so they could actually have family lives.

Truck stop hookers would be bummed though.

 

[PhantomPholly]

Yeah, the problem with the trucks isn't the weight (although batteries would make them even heavier and harder on the roads); it is the recharging network. It will take a big investment from some company or (shudder) the government picking a political crony to set a "standard" that no one will like to get that ball rolling.

Rail is different, there are lots of switching yards where they could easily install charging stations.

 

[aeroscott]

Yeah, the problem with the trucks isn't the weight (although batteries would make them even heavier and harder on the roads); it is the recharging network. It will take a big investment from some company or (shudder) the government picking a political crony to set a "standard" that no one will like to get that ball rolling.

Rail is different, there are lots of switching yards where they could easily install charging stations.

not to many electric trains use batteries(main power) . lots of said trains run on hot rails or wires

 

[aeroscott]

EV big rigs is a horrible idea. batteries would be way too heavy.

I would like to see more trailers piggybacked on flatbed rail cars. I would think that a mile long freight train pulling trailers would be much more efficient than each one being pulled by a truck.

This would also allow many truck drivers to work regionally so they could actually have family lives.

Truck stop hookers would be bummed though.

Look over the thread on ev trucks/18 wheelers . All worked out .and some being built .

 

[idarusskie]

http://www.trainweb.org/greengoats/features/Hybrid_Roster.pdf

electric hybrid conversions. notice they use 72 volt systems
http://www.rjcorman.com/rp_about.html

Yes, most battery powered trains would be switch engines where they start and stop more. full electric would require overhead or rail power. Milwaukee road used full electric power for most of its routes but they were managed into bankruptcy for other reasons.

a bunch of the trucking companies went bankrupt when oil went so high because the big guys had multi year fuel contracts and then could cut the throats of the small guys. electric power is generated in country(with the exception of some power from Canada) therefore the price is more stable.