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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi, I'm new to all of this and I am absolutely overwhelmed by all the information and data that is available. Long and short, I need a little help. I have a 170-501-001 D&D Motor and can't even definitively determine if it is a SHUNT or a SERIES motor. I guess that would be my 1st question...how can I tell if the motor is a SHUNT or SERIES wound motor. I've seen on other forums that SHUNT motors have A1, A2, F1, and F2 terminal and that SERIES have A1, A2, S1, and S2...is this true? Can I rely on that? Is there some other definitive way to tell?

OK, next I have a SEVCON SEM POWERPAK controller. Now, I realize some people have various opinions about motors and controllers, but this is what I have to work with. Maybe next time I'll do something else, but for now, this is what I've got. I have the PowerPC software along with the key and can share that info with anyone that needs it, BUT...how do I wire this sucker up?? It has F1, F2, B+, B-, A and S with R copper lugged to B+.

Look, I'll admit I'm currently over my head. I just need a little guidance...I'm really not stupid. Any light that any one can shed will be appreciated. Thanks, CHUCK
 

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...how can I tell if the motor is a SHUNT or SERIES wound motor. I've seen on other forums that SHUNT motors have A1, A2, F1, and F2 terminal and that SERIES have A1, A2, S1, and S2...is this true? Can I rely on that? Is there some other definitive way to tell?​
Hi Venom,

You got the S and F thing right. It is not universal, but I am pretty sure D&D follows this convention. The other way to tell for sure is to measure the field resistance. Series motor fields will be in the milliohm range, SepEx motors in the single digit ohm range and true shunt motors up in the hundreds of ohms.


OK, next I have a SEVCON SEM POWERPAK controller...how do I wire this sucker up?? It has F1, F2, B+, B-, A and S with R copper lugged to B+.
Get the manual and read it :) I have down loaded it from the web.

Regards,

major
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Here's a little update: today, after downloading the manual and having it look like Greek to me because I do not know or understand how to read electrical schematics, I came up with the following:

I checked my motor and to the best of my ability I have determined that the motor is a SepEx motor. Hope that's right.

On the SEVCON I hooked the F1 to the F1 on the motor, the F2 to the F2 on the motor, the B+ to the battery + (running through a contactor and fuse) AND to A1 on the motor, the B- to the battery -. Now, if you are keeping track, here's what's left...

on the motor I don't know what A2 goes to?? I'm guessing it this would be the Negative side of the motor?? Is this right?? Do I hook this to B- or to the chassis?? Does it matter??

on the Controller the B+ and R (??-what the hell is R for??) are hooked together. Is this right?? Why??

on the Controller, what are A and S for??

So, that's where I'm at right now. Any input?? Does this sound right?? I just don't know how exactly to read the schematics in the manual.

Ok, that's it for now. Please lend me a hand here. Thanks, CHUCK
 

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on the motor I don't know what A2 goes to?? I'm guessing it this would be the Negative side of the motor?? Is this right?? Do I hook this to B- or to the chassis?? Does it matter??

on the Controller the B+ and R (??-what the hell is R for??) are hooked together. Is this right?? Why??

on the Controller, what are A and S for??
Chuck,

Do you have any friends or relatives who could help you? How about a basic course in electricity? Local community college? I am not trying to be mean, but if you don't understand it to this point, I can't imagine you getting the control wiring straight and the parameter settings.

And of course it matters. I have a meeting to go to tonight. If nobody else jumps in and tells you, I'll get back to you later with some of those answers.

Regards,

major
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Major, I don't think you're being mean. No, I really don't have anyone that can help me along here. It's weird because believe it or not, others usually come to me. I have been in the RV industry for nearly 15 years now, and I have installed everything from dual battery banks, inverters, converters, generators, and coach wiring from scratch, but this has me whooped. Never had to worry about a controller, a motor, or regen braking or anything along those lines. I'd be so simple if some just sad R is for this, S goes here, and A does that. Once it was complete, I'm sure I could understand.

Not even gonna go into the SEVCONTROL throttle right now..............CHUCK
 

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I can appreciate your difficulty.
I spent most of my career as an electrician and mechanic and most of my hobby time making and building things from electric guitars to off road trucks.

Controllers, chargers and BMS have me beat unless the instructions are really simple and clear, preferably with step by step photos.

Don't worry about it, you are not alone.
:)
 

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If nobody else jumps in and tells you, I'll get back to you later with some of those answers.
The way I read it:

Battery positive thru fuse and contactor to controller B+.

Motor A1 to controller S.

Motor A2 to controller A.

Battery negative to controller B-.

Leave controller R as is, nothing connected except for existing copper bar.

F1 to F1.

F2 to F2.

No ground.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thank you, THANK you, THANK YOU!!! I am getting so excited....little bits and pieces keep coming in and now I have some confirmation on the wiring. I got my diode and resistor for the contactor yesterday. I also got my Molex connectors. I'll post an update with today's progress tonight. Thanks again, CHUCK
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
WOW!! Really!?! That's awesome...so to confirm....no big 450ohm/10watt resistor on the big lugs of the contactor, and no resistor on the spade terminals?? This just keeps getting better and better. It's not a lot of time effort, or money, but it's saving me something :).

Okay, I have the controller somewhat under control and the motor is all hooked up...now I want to ask about the SEVCON SEVCONTROL throttle. Should I continue with this thread of make a new post regarding the mounting and mechanics of the throttle?

Really, you guys, thanks so much, so very much. CHUCK
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
:confused::confused::confused:...Well, I have been trying to get my little project to point where I can at least make the wheels go 'round.

I own a trailer company don't ya know, and even though I keep the little El Car project at the shop these damn pesky trailers keep getting in the way, BUT I am close.

Major, I wired my motor to my control as you suggested. Now, I have started work on the 12 pin wiring and here is where I am getting some conflicting information....
per the SEVCON manual:
pin#1 to key switch
pin#2 since I don't have an actual F/R switch yet I simply have this hooked to a toggle and then to ground so that I can simulate ope and closed.
pin#3 Reverse, I have done nothing with
pin#4 grounded
pin#5 optional...left it alone
pin#6 digital pin...left it alone

Now here is very the conflict begins:

pin#7 digital pin...according to an SRE Bulletin on the SEVCONTROL, it says to connect the black wire from the SEVCONTROL to pin#7 and to ground...did that.

pin#8 in the PowerPak manual this is indicated as a line contactor BUT in the SRE Bulletin on the SEVCONTROL, it says to hook the green wire from the SEVCONTROL to pin#8 BUT it also indicates that the green wire is a 5v-0v output. Now why in the heck would you want to hook that to the line contactor line?

pin#9 Aux contactor...left it alone

pin#10 analog input...this is the 0v-5v input line from the accelerator, BUT the SRE Bulletin on the SEVCONTROL, already has you hooking this line up to pin#8.

pin#11 analog input 3.5v-0v...left it alone

pin#12 12+ output

Well, my first attempt at hooking this thing up led to a #4 fault...Contactor fault or open motor.

So now I'm looking for ore help and guidance...PLEASE Thanks, CHUCK
 

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Chuck,

Can you tell me which model of PowerPak you have? I run the PP745 in my Gizmo and the PP784 is the same thing only a different voltage. There are several settings in the controller which affect what each of the pins do and I can probably help you if you have a way to program the controller. I've been through the manual many times and learn something new every time.

EDIT: Appendix A on p. 53 of the manual outlines what the pins of the 12 pin connector do depending on what value is programmed into the controller. If you don't have the manual let me know and I can email it to you.

As for the connections to the motor:

B- and B+ are for battery inputs

On my controller B+ is jumpered to R

F1 and F2 go to F1 and F2 on the motor but not necessarily in that order. It depends on what direction you want the motor to turn when forward and reverse are selected.

A and S go to A1 and A2 on the motor

The controller does pull in the contactor but from my reading of the manual and also voltage measurements the controller does not provide its own precharge circuit.

HTH,
 

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WOW!! Really!?! That's awesome...so to confirm....no big 450ohm/10watt resistor on the big lugs of the contactor, and no resistor on the spade terminals??
I'm using a 50 ohm power resistor controlled by a relay which turns on before the controller pulls in the contactor. From my measurements of voltage across the contactor the voltage stays very high, it only drops a few volts, less than 10V IIRC, when the contactor is pulled in. I installed the 50ohm resistor because it precharges sufficiently fast without me having to do it manually since my DC-DC turns on quick enough. The inrush current is less than 1.4A which my 30A relay should handle just fine. If a lower resistance is used the controller thinks the contactor is stuck on and will fault.

FWIW, I'm now running a 64V nominal system.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Thanks for some more much needed info. Ok, here is an update of what I am doing...keep in mind, I am just trying to get everything to work, this is not installed in a car yet.

36volt battery bank: + goes to SW180 Curtis Albright Contactor
- goes to B- on SEVCON PP745 PowerPak Controller

SW180 Albright Contactor B+ from battery pack
B+ to SEVCON PP745 PowerPak Controller

in addition: I have installed a 470ohm/10W pre-charge resistor between the battery lugs AND a 3A diode between the blades BUT :confused::confused: should this diode be between the + and - thus up and down OR should it be between Battery side and Contactor side thus left to right??? :confused::confused:

SEVCON PP745 PowerPak Controller F1 to Motor F1
F2 to Motor F2
B+ to SW180 Albright Contactor
AND bridged to R
A to Motor A1
S to Motor A2

I'm thinking about trying a couple of more things:
I'm going to add another battery to get the voltage up to 48v.
I'm going to install the diode left to right, not up and down.

I have the PCpaK software, if you could help me make an interface cable for my laptop I can check all the parameters on the PowerPak and give you more information.

Thanks for the continued help, CHUCK
 

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I have installed a 470ohm/10W pre-charge resistor between the battery lugs AND a 3A diode between the blades BUT :confused::confused: should this diode be between the + and - thus up and down OR should it be between Battery side and Contactor side thus left to right??? :confused::confused:
The precharge resistor goes across the large contacts on the contactor and the diode goes across the small contacts on the contactor. For the time being leave off the diode. If you are running 36V you won't kill the contactor without a precharge either so you can wait on that to get things running. My rig ran for ~5 years without either. I only wish I could see the contacts to see how they have aged due to no precharge.

SEVCON PP745 PowerPak Controller F1 to Motor F1
F2 to Motor F2
B+ to SW180 Albright Contactor
AND bridged to R
A to Motor A1
S to Motor A2
That is good. The PP745 has a working voltage of just below 15V to 75V but won't pull in the contactor unless the voltage is below 70V.

I'm thinking about trying a couple of more things:
I'm going to add another battery to get the voltage up to 48v.
It isn't needed if you can program the controller. It may have come programmed not to pull in the contactor if the voltage is too low, however.

I'm going to install the diode left to right, not up and down.
As noted above, I would leave it off for the moment. Once you get things working then you can install it.

I have the PCpaK software, if you could help me make an interface cable for my laptop I can check all the parameters on the PowerPak and give you more information.
I don't have the PCpaK software. I was told by another person in Florida who has the Gizmo made just before mine that he couldn't get the PCpaK software to work with his controller and found out that it was not compatible with his PP745. He ended up getting the calibrator to program it. Are you sure the software will work with your controller?

The manual says there is a special "dongle" to convert the CAN bus communication to RS232 to then connect to a PC. Do you have this device?

Without knowing how the controller is programmed you may be very frustrated getting it working because there are so many different things that can mess things up. For example, when I was testing a PP784 controller I recently received it would go into full speed when I switched out of neutral. I had to reprogram the controller to work properly with my setup.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Gizmo,
I have the PCpaK software version 2.00.00 (UK0052). It states that it is compatible with an Millipak, Micropak, or Powerpak that is PCpaK enabled. I guess I'll have to determine of the 745 is in that list...
 

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I guess now it is time to find or build a "dongle" to hook up to it.

FWIW, I've attached a .pdf of the wiring diagram I am using on my Gizmo. Don't worry about most of it just look at the "controller connection B" on the left side of the schematic. You will see what pins I'm using. Pin 4 labeled FS1 has to be open some times and closed (shorted to ground or battery -) at other times. IIRC, it has to be closed for normal drive and open for regen to work. Its function can change depending on how the controller is programmed. Also, Pin 5 on your controller may be active too. I have it hooked to a "kill switch" in one of the steering handles in my Gizmo. I can't remember if this has to be closed to work or open to work but it is another thing to check if you aren't getting anywhere with the controller.

HTH,
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Giz...thanks so much for all your continued help. Today I did a little bit ore trouble shooting:

1st I double checked the contactor and it is functioning properly AFAICT. I have the B+ going in and coming out and a small lead running through a switch going to a small spade terminal with the other small spade terminal grounded. Flip the switch, contactor wakes up, 36v in and 36 v out. SG2M.

Next I decided to determine of the motor was any good. I checked for continuity between the Fs...all good. Checked for continuity between the As...all good.

Then I decided to juice the motor directly just to see it spin. I took 2 individual 12 volt batteries and 2 pair of jumper cables. 1st I hooked up the small terminals...the Fs to battery #1. F1+ and F2-. Then I hooked up the battery ground and braced myself for the little spark as I hooked up the positive. I hooked up the motor first so that if there was an arc it wouldn't ruin the posts. Now for the big terminals...the As to battery #2. A1+ and A2-. Once again I hooked up the motor and then moved to the battery...this spark was BIGGER and then the wheels when round and round!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek: :D :) YEAH...the motor is actually good....and so is the differential!! I made progress.

I'm thinking the issue is now with the controller. I'm devising my next troubleshooting plan of attack.

Check out my mess:
 

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with the other small spade terminal grounded.
Hey Venom,

Nothing in the high voltage battery, controller power circuit or control circuit should be grounded. Battery negative needs to be isolated from chassis and earth and therefore is not a ground. It can be a node at battery negative potential, but not ground.

On the other note, congrats on spinning the motor :)

major
 
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