DIY Electric Car Forums banner

1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
134 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
some clarifications about what i mean:
  • onboard charge controllers or BMS' or both, not at-home charging boxes
  • CCS plug, not chademo. Chademo in my area especially is falling down very quickly and even then very few of them are even fast chargers
  • by "fast charger", i mean the standard 0-80% in 30 minutes speed
  • in my particular application, i'll be using only a 32kw total capacity battery, so having a way to fast charge so i don't need to worry as much about range is very high priority for my build
so, what's the current state of this? Last i heard, orion was looking into putting this into their BMS'
https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1051737&postcount=4
but i can't find any evidence of aftermarket or open source approaches, let alone how successful they've been
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
80 Posts
There is also OpenV2G - which is an implementation of vehicle-to-anything, but someone may at some point use their project to develop a DIY CCS controller.

I'm not sure where I read that Orion was thinking about implementing CCS, but I can't imagine it happening any time soon...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
739 Posts
Orion was thinking about implementing CCS
Could you explain what that would look like?

I thought it would be the charger side that needs to implement support for its input.

AFAIK the BMS just sends the start / keep charging heartbeat commands with the desired output V & A.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
134 Posts
Discussion Starter #5

·
Registered
Joined
·
739 Posts
Put multiple units in parallel?

Or go Brusa?

These are others Orion mentions

Eltek Valere
Current Ways
ZiVan
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
I'm confused why you are asking about CCS DC Fast charging but also referencing chargers and their maximum capacity?

CCS Charging relies on the charger in the charging station not the vehicle.

The charging station is directly connected to the vehicle battery via the high current DC connectors and the BMS tells the charging station (via the comms) how fast to charge and when to stop based on its direct on board monitoring of the battery pack. (greatly simplified of course)

This is similar to Chademo except the CCS communication protocol runs over PLC rather than CAN bus. There is negotiation between the BMS and Charging station to ensure compatibility and charge voltages/currents, ground fault checking etc. prior to any charging taking place.

You could get away with no on board charger at all if you only wanted to use DC fast charging.

Mike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
134 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
i keep forgetting that is the case
in which case what i'm looking out for is a bms which can handshake with the ccs protocol at public charging stations, and a battery which can take that kind of rapid charging (which i think the Volt batteries can, given sufficient cooling)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,779 Posts
in which case what i'm looking out for is a bms which can handshake with the ccs protocol at public charging stations, and a battery which can take that kind of rapid charging (which i think the Volt batteries can, given sufficient cooling)
Since the handshake includes the EV telling the charging station what rate is allowed, any battery can handle a rapid charging rate... it's just a question of exactly how rapid. You don't have to accept the highest possible rate that the station can handle.

On the other hand, if the station charges by time rather than by energy, you want to charge at the highest power that your battery can safely handle in order to get as much energy as you can for your money.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
134 Posts
Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
On the other hand, if the station charges by time rather than by energy, you want to charge at the highest power that your battery can safely handle in order to get as much energy as you can for your money.
that's the open question, how hard can you slam amps into the volt cells?
given how you can draw crazy amps from them for high power ev applications, i'm guessing they'd actually be very stable under very high charge rates

but from what i read historically, the hard part was making something open source that could talk to these ccs charging stations and tell them what they want to hear in order to charge
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
295 Posts
Drawing crazy amps is very different than stuffing them back in again. Looking at cells I have, that's a 6:1 difference on the continuous crazy draw, even higher ratio if you're talking about a 10sec pull of electrons.

Ultimately, your BMS will determine how hot the cell is getting which determines the charge rate.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
134 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
fair enough
i guess then it's a matter of seeing what other people who have tried fast charging volt batteries can find.
in which case, damien's panzer uses volt batteries and a simpBMS, and looks like he can do some pretty serious charging with that setup on chademo, which was pulling like 72 amps at 400v
https://youtu.be/OpnI4HUsZVE?t=514
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
66 Posts
CHAdeMO is the de facto DC fast charging standard for DIYers right now because it is controlled through CAN.

I'm also interested in installing a CCS fast charge option in an EV that previously only had AC. It is still unclear to me how CCS equipped EVs store and communicate the DIN SPEC 70121 and ISO/IEC 15118 standards to the DC fast charger. It could be in the onboard AC charger, in the BMS, or in the ???.

Orion was mentioning that they were looking into supporting the CCS standard (that was on their website, but I can't remember where at this point); however, it's possible that CCS fast charging can be supported even without the BMS or onboard charger having that capability. Tesla has been offering a CCS adapter for their European Model S and X owners, and part of the adapter package is a communication box that is installed under the rear seat. It's possible that a third-party could replicate that type of hardware, which acts as a bridge between the CCS port (comm line) and the BMS. Basically, a PLC to CAN translator.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
134 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Orion's teasing a CCS add-on module to their BMS' which will come out late 2020 or early 2021 and that seems like a good relatively turn key solution
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
66 Posts
CHAdeMO is pretty much dead for new electric vehicles in North America at this point; however, it is likely to be supported by public charging providers for a long time into the future.

Even for DIYers, it's going to be necessary to make the transition to CCS, so off-the-shelf CCS conversion solutions can't come soon enough.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
I have some experience with CCS. I have used one such module from Auronik (they were bought by Akka a while back) but it worked terribly and the price was about 1500 EUR for <10 pcs.
Supposed one could make a CCS module, how much would you guys be willing to pay for one? Would you be open to supporting a crowdsourcing project for it?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
66 Posts
I have some experience with CCS. I have used one such module from Auronik (they were bought by Akka a while back) but it worked terribly and the price was about 1500 EUR for <10 pcs.
Supposed one could make a CCS module, how much would you guys be willing to pay for one? Would you be open to supporting a crowdsourcing project for it?
It seems like that would be something that's hard to put a value on. It's essentially the same thing that Tesla is providing to their Model S/X owners in Europe (plus the CCS plug adapter), and I believe they're charging less than €200. Similarly, the Power Line Communication module for the Chevrolet Bolt EV is only about $150.

How much more would a crowd-sourced version cost?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
It seems like that would be something that's hard to put a value on. It's essentially the same thing that Tesla is providing to their Model S/X owners in Europe (plus the CCS plug adapter), and I believe they're charging less than €200. Similarly, the Power Line Communication module for the Chevrolet Bolt EV is only about $150.

How much more would a crowd-sourced version cost?
Well there are a few key components:
1. GreenPHY PLC, cheapest one I found is this: PEV (Electro Vehicle) side PLC / Home Plug Green Phy communication Module for ISO/IEC15118 / DIN 70121 / SAE J2847/2 51 EUR
2. Singleboard computer capable of running ISO15118 stack, perhaps Beaglebone Black since it includes two CAN interfaces https://hr.mouser.com/ProductDetail/BeagleBoard-by-Seeed-Studio/102110420?qs=vmHwEFxEFR8FZOWBwz8ZDA== 40 EUR
3. Additional PCB with SAEJ1772 signaling and sampling, power suppply, etc electronics approx 50 EUR

so we are talking about 150 EUR just for the parts.

In addition you need:
1. At least two more high current DC contactors for connecting the CCS lines to battery pack (Tyco KiloVAC). around 200 EUR
2. High voltage, galvanically isolated voltage measuring input around 50 EUR
3. CCS socket, around 200-300 EUR.

As for the software, there is open source implementation in JAVA, RISE V2G – V2G Clarity, but it needs to be ported to the actual hardware, mostly by implementing calls to access J1772 CP and PP states and controling them. Also TCP/IP communication over PLC needs to be implemented.

I think 250-300 EUR just for the PLC module could be possible.
 
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
Top