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The NEDRA Nationals were a blast, there should be some great videos and pics comming soon.

There were a few records broke this weekend, The White Zombie set a few with the 10.258 1/4 mile and also broke the record for the fastest street legal EV at 126 mph. That makes the White Zombie the first street legal EV to break the 125 mph mark.

Congrats to John Wayland and his team !!

Father Time also set an 1/8 mile record in his Green Machine

Dave Kois
Current EV Tech, LLC
http://www.currentevtech.com
253-988-5020
Skype dkoisii
 

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This car's acceleration is similar to a Bugatti Veyron above 60 mph, and below 60 mph, would blow its doors off. I'm glad he decided to re-gear it; I wouldn't be surprised if its true top speed approached 150 mph, which would be especially remarkable considering the car has no transmission. I've held the opinion for the last 5 years that the technology existed for a street EV to get into the 9s, and Wayland is very close to that. This man needs a nice, fat, $100,000+ grant to play with...
 

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This car's acceleration is similar to a Bugatti Veyron above 60 mph, and below 60 mph, would blow its doors off. I'm glad he decided to re-gear it; I wouldn't be surprised if its true top speed approached 150 mph, which would be especially remarkable considering the car has no transmission. I've held the opinion for the last 5 years that the technology existed for a street EV to get into the 9s, and Wayland is very close to that. This man needs a nice, fat, $100,000+ grant to play with...
Keep in mind that battery pack he is using costs a nice fat $40-50K USD;)
 

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This car's acceleration is similar to a Bugatti Veyron above 60 mph, and below 60 mph, would blow its doors off. I'm glad he decided to re-gear it; I wouldn't be surprised if its true top speed approached 150 mph, which would be especially remarkable considering the car has no transmission. I've held the opinion for the last 5 years that the technology existed for a street EV to get into the 9s, and Wayland is very close to that. This man needs a nice, fat, $100,000+ grant to play with...
I don't think you can compare a Veyron to a Datsun.
 

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I don't think you can compare a Veyron to a Datsun.
yea it's not fare only cost 1.5 million for a car that can only run at max power for 15 minutes before it runs out of gas . 1000 hp takes over 100 gallons / hour . I remember a small Chevy 350 hp burned about 65 gallons per hour at the 350 hp power level . with cars like the 4 wheel drive,4 motor ev's with micro turbines will out class the Veyron , like the 780 hp Jaguar concept . simpler ,cheaper, faster , better braking ,easier to work on , less work to maintain , more range if heat recovery on the turbines and much inproved traction control . At least Jag and Mercedes are moving that way . I wonder how much that Datsun could be copied for ?
 

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I don't think you can compare a Veyron to a Datsun.
I just did... in any street scenario where there wasn't enough road to exceed 120 mph, that Veyron would get RAPED by that little electric Datsun.

The Veyron wouldn't catch up until a bit after the 1/4 mile mark.

Of course, for about half the price of a Veyron, you could buy a MiG 22 Foxbat on the Russian black market...

I wonder how much that Datsun could be copied for ?
Using the exact components, about $60,000. You could probably replicate it but swap in cheaper Hawker lead acid batteries and aim for low 11s in the 1/4 mile for about $25,000 in parts.

Were EVs mass produced, the battery pack cost for lithium would drop dramatically... it really shouldn't cost that much more than lead. On a per kWh basis, Thundersky LiFePO4 is already cost competitive with AGMs(< $400/kWh), although not yet competitive on a per kW basis(AGMs have about a 3:1 advantage). Unlike other Li Ion batteries, the Thunderskys enjoy volume sufficient for mass production of automobiles, and thus their low cost.
 

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I like the whole EV idea - I'm building one - but you guys really need to take the rose-colored glasses off. The accomplishments of modern EVs are impressive enough to stand on their own without skewing the facts.

Veyron vs Zombie
If someone took a Veyron and set it up for drag racing - gear it to acheive max acceleration in 1320ft (vs 230-260mph top speed), and swapped on a set of drag radials (vs more road race/street oriented production radials) - I think the quarter mile times might be a bit faster than Zombie's.​

Sort of like this (and it's still geared for 238mph!):

The Lingenfelter Vette is a good example. The twin-turbo engine costs about the same as Zombie's Kokam pack, transmission about the same as Zombie's siamese motors, etc. (I know, I know, the Vette cost more to start with, but the components that make it fast could, and have, been applied to other, cheaper vehicles). The LPE Vette runs 8.90s in the quarter-mile, consistently. Turn the boost down, put the street tires back on and you can drive it from sea to shining sea, with the AC on.

For a more direct comparison, for those who think I stacked the deck with the costlier Vette and Gallardo (I was really trying to be nice by picking heavy cars), consider this little monster:
It's probably comparable to Zombie in (original and build) cost, weight, and size. Two seconds faster.​


The aforementioned Veyron is also a rich man's toy, with every conceivable creature comfort that could be stuffed in it. It wasn't made specifically for drag racing, it's a status symbol. The performance is a prerequisite for the price tag and image. The Toyota, on the other hand, is right up Zombie's alley.​

As for cost: Zombie's Kokam pack would be around $60+K by itself. I know because I looked into them for the Inhaler. A Jim Husted siamese 9, comparable to what Wayland has is probably going to set you back $10K or more, $3-5K for the rear end, wheels, tires, chassis, etc. You can easily spend $75-100K to replicate it, depending on the level of quality you want, and amount of labor you have to pay for.​

Again, I am not trying to knock any EV. WZ is the car that tipped the scales in favor of me going EV, and it's recent performance is very inspiring. I just believe in keeping things in perspective, and representing things honestly. I've considered all this stuff in my own plans, so I have a pretty good grasp of where things stand and what is really possible.​
 

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Oh no Todd, now you did it:eek:. I actually started to type the same kind of response to that but stopped because I got flamed for "wiping the windows" before, and I think EV is the future as well but it is nowhere near equal yet. It's not their faults if they have never seen a real drag race and be able to recognize the WZ vids are all against OK street cars running DOT tires and geared for street driving. I help a few friends with drag cars and bikes and I'm an engine builder by trade. Most of my friends run 7 and 8 sec cars and a crazy 6 second bike here and there. The WZ has great "for street car" launches but not that great for drag cars, which is what he has turned WZ into. That vid of the tan colored import car should put things into perspective for the uninformed that don't frequent the drags.
The way the Lightning TTXGP team, with Major, has conducted themselves amongst naysayers is on par with any new tech racing effort I've ever seen. They are also, in my opinion, the closest thing to a near equal comparison to ICE roadrace bikes such as the Harley's/Buell's and other twin cylinder bikes. The performance is stunning to say the least and it can only get better.
WZ is no match dollar for dollar with 10 sec ICE cars, he easily has twice the money into his car than a 10 sec ICE car. That doesn't mean give up, that just means lets acknowledge a goal achieved and move forward. The good thing is it may only take another 400 hp to reach the level of that little tan zombie and with new tech reaching us every day that may be sooner than you think
 

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Oh no Todd, now you did it:eek:...
Truth is what it is, accept it or get smacked down by it. I think it's an injustice to what EVs have achieved to stretch the truth. It makes the whole thing come across as snake oil sales. I am totally impressed with the performance of WZ, but don't like the fact that they present it as though they're smacking the taste out of the mouths of comparable ICE racers. That's a lie.

Present the truth as it is. It's a little slower, dollar-for-dollar, than ICE racing. It's no less exciting though, has the benefit of being based on the technology of tomorrow, and it is getting faster almost exponentially - like most high-tech stuff does. Maybe some day electric will blow the doors off ICE, but for today it's a few steps behind.

If I spent what it will cost me to build the Inhaler's electric powertrain on a twin-turbo, aluminum block, V8 I would have a high-6-sec quarter-mile vehicle! I am building it a little slower on electric because it's cooler. :cool:
 

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By the way, since this thread is about the Zombie, I believe the car has a 9-sec pass in it as it is. If he had the chassis setup of the Toyota in the video it would probably be a mid-9 sec car, maybe low-9s. I'd be a little concerned with anything faster than that on the current chassis though.
 

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The Siamese 9" motor is $8,400, listed on Jim Husted's site. The Zilla 2k HV is $5,000. The PFC50 charger costs $3,300. The drive shaft probably costs around $800. The Dutchman 9" Ford HDST rear-end is $825 per the Dutchamn motorsports website. The CalTracs traction bars will set one back about $500. The pair of g-Force P 225 /50R15 radials in the rear are $320 plus the two LRR Continental tires up front are an additional $120. Add another $700 for the alloy wheels. About $3,000 in car plus ancillary components to make the car road worthy(DC-DC, aux battery, contactors, fuses, wiring, seats, battery housing, ect.).

This is ~$23k, without batteries or BMS. The lead acid version didn't need a roll cage, and the lead acid batteries he used were $3.5k for the pack. Surely, at least some of the parts could be found used, bringing the cost around $25k or less, for the lead acid setup for which to run 11s. This is provided one does all of their own work putting the car together.

At $23k without batteries, BMS, or roll cage, and adding $1,000 for the roll cage so that it can meet NHRA regulation, this leaves $36k for the pack and the BMS without going over $60k. My understanding was that his pack was somewhere around $40k. If that battery cost is correct, the car's build cost, if you do your own work, would be about $60k.

I'm waiting on a quote from Dow Kokam(I intend to perhaps buy a pack of these years down the road and had inquired earlier), but the time I inquired about Kokam batteries 5 years ago, they were about $1,100/kWh(for the kind used in the "Electric Imp"). These new Dow Kokam ultra high power batteries are a completely different battery, but I'd be very surprised if the cost is above $2,000/kWh; that price just wouldn't be able to compete with the likes of A123, which has similar specific power, but is currently around $1,000/kWh. Wayland's pack is 22.7 kWh.

How large of a pack were you investigating? If you don't mind sharing, what was the exact amount they quoted you? $60k for 23 kWh(including BMS) may indeed be the case, but it definitely sounds a bit high!


Further, Wayland's car is street legal, and maintains its original chassis. I'd be hesitant to call it a drag car, as those tend to be built on a chrome molly chassis with a tubbed rear end, and non-legal tires. While the Datsun definitely has its amenities stripped out, it is 100% street legal, including the tires. It also never has to worry about being cited for excessive noise, and in some states, violating emissions regulations. Were that Lingenfelter relegated to street legal tires, it probably wouldn't get that 8.9 in the quarter mile, and may come up half a second or more short.

While it is true that a street legal ICE car that is faster than the Zombie can be built for a lower price, the ICE car's parts are more easily available and enjoy economies of scale, versus Jim Husted hand building a Siamese 9" or Otmar hand-assembling a Zilla controller and taking the time to make sure the characteristics of the IGBTs used match closely enough to be put into a balanced, working controller. If EVs and their parts ever see volume production, then the real comparison will be known; I suspect EVs would be cheaper if on an even playing field using today's EV technology, but they are not.

I chose to compare the Veyron because John Wayland has done something many would think impossible; he has built a street legal electric car that accelerates faster than the fastest accelerating production car on Earth(or one of the fastest). THAT is what I was getting at. If he can compete in acceleration with the fastest production car on Earth, what is there to stop the auto industry from building a $500,000+ boutique electric car that out performs the Veyron in every which way, shape, or form, and even gets comparable range? Being that the Veyron is a 4500 lb lard ass, surely a competitive EV could fit a 1500-2000 lb pack of lithium under there... the Eliica from Keio University comes close in top speed, doing 231 mph on the Nardo test track in Italy, and whose designer says will do 250 if given enough track.

Give Wayland $100k to play with, and I would not be surprised if he got into the very low 9s, and remained street legal. He hasn't even explored his current setup and is deep into the 10s.
 

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Wait for that second Zilla Z2K EHV to be installed in the WZ. :) I wonder what happens if you strip out that Toyota, put all WZ components in and put in the smallest battery pack enough to do 1 or 2 runs. :D
 

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We're talking Zombie level performance here. Of course you can cut corners and come up with a nice car, but the point is to replicate it.

The Siamese 9" motor is $8,400, listed on Jim Husted's site...
I doubt that "off-the-shelf" motor has all the "enhancements" WZ's motor has.


...The PFC50 charger costs $3,300...
I think WZ runs a Manzanita Micro.


...The Dutchman 9" Ford HDST rear-end is $825 per the Dutchamn motorsports website...
That's the housing and axles. You still need a complete third member. WZ uses the aluminum case version. Add shipping and labor to set it up, if you don't know how yourself and don't want to keep buying parts.


...This is ~$23k, without batteries or BMS. The lead acid version didn't need a roll cage, and the lead acid batteries he used were $3.5k for the pack. Surely, at least some of the parts could be found used, bringing the cost around $25k or less, for the lead acid setup for which to run 11s. This is provided one does all of their own work putting the car together...
Your estimate was in the ballpark though, and as you noted doesn't include labor. You also have to count in the extra labor WZ gets from its team, which I don't believe is on payroll. It's not just John who makes that car go, it's a handful of extremely talented people contributing their time and expertise. You have to either have his charismatic ability to draw them to the project, or a bank account capable of it.


...I'm waiting on a quote from Dow Kokam(I intend to perhaps buy a pack of these years down the road and had inquired earlier), but the time I inquired about Kokam batteries 5 years ago, they were about $1,100/kWh(for the kind used in the "Electric Imp"). These new Dow Kokam ultra high power batteries are a completely different battery, but I'd be very surprised if the cost is above $2,000/kWh; that price just wouldn't be able to compete with the likes of A123, which has similar specific power, but is currently around $1,000/kWh. Wayland's pack is 22.7 kWh.

How large of a pack were you investigating? If you don't mind sharing, what was the exact amount they quoted you? $60k for 23 kWh(including BMS) may indeed be the case, but it definitely sounds a bit high!...
The latest A123 pack I have been planning is also 22.7kWh. I do have a form from Kokam that I am supposed to submit for a quote, but haven't done it yet. Frodus suggested I consider them and we both did some math on them in a thread I had here on BMS. The Kokams were substantially higher than the A123s, which I guessed would cost about the same as you said. The serious Kokams also only have a 500 cycle charge life. That kind of adds to the cost over the long-term, because even a complete TT-ICE rebuild doesn't compare to a whole new pack.

The things you're not figuring are BMS, cases, connections, wiring, etc. As hard as these cells are pushed, and as expensive as they are, you want BMS. You also want good quality cases and connections. WZ's cases are made from 1/2" plexi, Lexan, or acrylic, or something. Again, if you can't do it all yourself - add labor.

The point is yes you can scrimp here and there, but there is a limit to that if you want to replicate the performance of the Zombie. It works and works well, consistently, because it's a quality effort from the whole WZ team.
 
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