Supercapacitor storage bank ?

13615 Views 71 Replies 9 Participants Last post by somecallmetim, Sep 18, 2019

Karter2

Discussion Starter · Mar 13, 2018

Sorry if this product has been raised before, i searched and nothing came up.
Kilowattlabs Sirius Supercapacitor storage "battery "
Several of the other forums ..Solar, EV, tech , etc...are having some debates over the Sirius product which claims to be the first Supercapacitor based storage device for use with Solar systems, utility storage, EVs, RVs etc etc
They claim it can replace any current Lead ,AGM, or Lithium, battery function.
Infact the list of claims are extensive, not least being rapid charge/discharge, 99% efficiency, million cycle life with no capacity reduction, totally fire safe (non combustable materials) , and $1/Wh price point.
http://www.ultraflexgroup.com/en/ca...capacitors-energy-storage-systems.html?lang=2
Note they are initially offering 3.5kWh and 7.1 kWh , units with other sizes and voltages to follow.
Obviously if any of this is true, then storage has truely advanced instantly, but as many of us realise, these claims go beyond any current proven Supercap performance abilities.....hence why there is hot discussion raging.
Some of you may already be involved in those discussions on other forums , but my reason for raising it here is to rais awareness to either help prove/disprove the validity of this device such that we either can avoid it or benefit from its technology.

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brian_

· #2 · Mar 13, 2018

It's at least a bit amusing that Uflex didn't both to translate some (but only some) of the terms from Italian to English, and list three characteristics of the communications port ("TCP/IP", "RJ45", and "ETHERNET" as if they are three different communications methods, one for each model.

Something doesn't add up to me, based on the minimal description from Uflex:

Is is just a pile of capacitors? Then a small range of voltage would not use the capacity effectively.
Is it fronted by a DC-DC converter? Then the 99% efficiency and "no heat dissipation. No need cooling or ventilation" claims are nonsense.

The manufacturer is Kilowatt Labs, not Uflex. Their website claims a 100% depth of discharge, which is not possible in practical terms (since a fully discharged capacitor is at zero volts), but suggests that the capacitor voltage is taken very low, so the power conditioning must include a DC-to-DC converter.

This is the entirety of the EV section of their Storage Applications page:

Electric Vehicles

Bringing Instant Mobility to the Electric Vehicle Industry.

With a charging time of less than 15 seconds, the Sirius battery enables instant mobility to electric vehicles, putting them at par with a combustion engine car. With an energy density of 115Wh/kg of delivered energy, a cycle life of 15,000 cycles, high temperature tolerance and low cost, Sirius battery enables electric vehicles' attributes to exceed combustion engine cars for the first time.

The Sirius battery can be deployed in all kinds of vehicles, 2 and 3-wheel vehicles, passenger trucks and buses, trains, trams, SUV's, industrial vehicles, and military vehicles.

So a 30 kWh battery would weigh 261 kg... so this isn't a leap forward in energy density by mass; the advantages would be in power density (especially for charging) and cycle life.

I have no idea who they think will be reading this that would think that the number of wheels on a vehicle would change whether or not it can use this type of energy storage.

Self-discharge has always been an issue with capacitors, and this product actually includes a small lithium ion battery to compensate, so it's definitely still an issue:

A charge retention circuit controls a small percentage of embedded Li Ion to supply current to reduce charge leakage and increase self-discharge time to 14 days.

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Karter2

Discussion Starter · #3 · Mar 13, 2018 (Edited)

There is a video on this page with the Australian distributor.
Half way through he talks about the Supercap pack and even shows what he claims is one of the supercaps used.
He also mentions that the "cell" capacity will double and triple in the next versions !...which implies a big improvement in the energy density. (Which is already beyond current known supercap levels ?)
Note also the claims of fire safety, and 45 yr design life !
http://www.cleanenergy.org.au/renew...arvios-super-capacitor-energy-storage-system/

Duncan

· #4 · Mar 13, 2018

So a 30 kWh battery would weigh 261 kg... so this isn't a leap forward in energy density by mass

I heard 75 kg for a 3.5 kwh unit so 640 kg for 30 kwh

Not impressive for batteries - but for supercaps that is about 50 times better than existing units

I have contacted them and I got

Hello Duncan
We are excited about this product but we don’t have all of the pricing and specifications through yet. I will let you know when we do.
Regards
Jason

When I do hear back I will pass it on

These are roughly 1000th the price of existing supercaps - I hope it's not just somebody getting his number wrong

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ishiwgao

· #5 · Mar 13, 2018

Duncan said:
So a 30 kWh battery would weigh 261 kg... so this isn't a leap forward in energy density by mass

I heard 75 kg for a 3.5 kwh unit so 640 kg for 30 kwh

Not impressive for batteries - but for supercaps that is about 50 times better than existing units

These are roughly 1000th the price of existing supercaps - I hope it's not just somebody getting his number wrong

I know Skeleton Technology is aiming for a 20Wh/kg supercap by 2020 (https://chargedevs.com/newswire/ske...pacitors-targets-heavy-transportation-market/), and so this would still be about 6x heavier (1500kg for 30kWh) than the one from KiloWatt Labs.

I'm a bit skeptical about the 115Wh/kg supercap spec. I think someone probably missed a period "." somewhere, or mixed up their supercap spec with a battery spec lol.

In terms of pricing, well even if they're an order off, it's still cheap for supercaps

Karter2

Discussion Starter · #6 · Mar 16, 2018 (Edited)

Pack Shorting test video posted by Arvio on the aussie EV forum..
...comments ?
https://youtu.be/LflfpqBTwnQ

Duncan

· #7 · Mar 16, 2018

Hi Karter

They have a module - but I'm not sure what they expect those tests to show - they are not testing the supercaps - just the electronics that control the caps

I would be much more interested if they took the lid off to have a look inside

The total power capacity would be interesting as well - but at the loads it's designed for NOT a short

At least it shows that the units do exist and are not total vapourware

Still no update from the salesman who promised me some specs

Karter2

Discussion Starter · #8 · Mar 20, 2018 (Edited)

This post was just put up on the Aussie EV forum site, in reply to many requests for information and proof that this is not just a disguised Lithium pack.
The author is Paul Wilson of Arvio the importer of the Sirius battery in Au

Post by Supercaps » Today, 18:26

Start by reading the patent that was published yesterday. Just for clarification there is no in series dc to dc conversion and no electrochemical cells despite Richo’s determined effort. We fly these units on planes regularly at 40 x the allowable Wh limit of lithium ion electrochemical batteries. There is no riddle. No trick. Always open to a visit at our business from anyone who is curious about how it’s done, and yes you can see inside it. Over 100 systems are being installed over the coming months. Many of them will be on line for all to see.

Tony Bogs

· #9 · Mar 20, 2018

Video of a representative or maybe even owner, seems credible enough.
And he admits that the biggest challenge is making people believe that the product is genuine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K8JIC-ov_Y

brian_

· #10 · Mar 20, 2018

Karter2 said:
This post was just put up on the Aussie EV forum site...
The author is Paul Wilson of Arvio the importer of the Sirius battery in Au

Post by Supercaps » Today, 18:26

Start by reading the patent that was published yesterday. Just for clarification there is no in series dc to dc conversion...

Click to expand...

So, they are using only a small fraction of the capacitor energy capacity, by operating them over a narrow voltage range?

Anyone citing a patent should provide the patent number (and of course issuing country); otherwise, it just looks like a bluff, assuming no one will actually look it up.

Karter2

Discussion Starter · #11 · Mar 20, 2018

.....the latest post from P Wilson (Arvio)

There are 1200 x 3,000F super capacitors. 2.7V each. 20 in series and 30 in parallel per layer x 2 layers.

Note also in his previous post, he claim that they are airfreighting these Sirius units , so someone must have signed a legal declaration to confirm there is no significant lithium ion content in the device. .
Do the FAA physically check to confirm the declaration, before allowing freight to fly ?
But if its not true...someone will go to jail eventually !

Bottom line is, they are claiming to have a 3000F supercap the size of an 18650 cell !.

.....how likely is that ?
.....

Tony Bogs

· #12 · Mar 20, 2018

Karter2 said:
Bottom line is, they are claiming to have a 3000F supercap the size of an 18650 cell !.
.....how likely is that ?

It;s amazing. Just as amazing as the 1 and 10F when they first became available.

So let's turn it around.
About four/five years ago, graphene hit the news sites as a big promise for storage.
With that in mind I'd say it's certainly not unlikely that in these supercaps the promise has become a reality.
So far I haven't seen hard evidence that undermines the claims.

brian_

· #13 · Mar 20, 2018 (Edited)

Karter2 said:
.....the latest post from P Wilson (Arvio)

There are 1200 x 3,000F super capacitors. 2.7V each. 20 in series and 30 in parallel per layer x 2 layers.

Click to expand...

...
Bottom line is, they are claiming to have a 3000F supercap the size of an 18650 cell !.
.....how likely is that ?
.....

That's the operating voltage of Eaton's XL60 product, announced in 2016; however, the XL60 cells are much larger than an 18650 - 60 mm in diameter - and have a capacitance of 166 F. A module containing 18 of them (standing vertically in a 3x6 array) is 177 mm high, 420 mm long, and 196 mm high. That's 166 F, not 3,000 F, so the claim here is 20 times greater capacitance in a small fraction of the volume.

Energy storage in a capacitor is 1/2CV**2, so charging a single capacitor of 3,000F would store
0.5*3000*2.7**2
=10,935 J or 3.04 Wh

Then a set of 1200 would store 13,122 kJ or 3645 Wh, matching the 3.7 kWh claim... but would have to be fully discharged to zero volts to extract that energy. Something does not make sense here.

Tony Bogs

· #14 · Mar 20, 2018 (Edited)

2.7V is an ordinary value for a supercap. It does not mean anything in relation to Eaton or any other brand.

Something does not make sense here.

I don't see the smoking gun.

And it is a cap, so discharging is a linear proces, unlike chemical storage. Not a direct drop-in replacement for Li-ion in an EV.

brian_

· #15 · Mar 21, 2018 (Edited)

Tony Bogs said:
2.7V is an ordinary value for a supercap. It does not mean anything in relation to Eaton or any other brand.

I didn't say or even suggest that these were the Eaton product; in fact, the huge size difference confirms that they are not the same. This was a comparison of capacity - a massive improvement on the order of a factor of 100 - as I explicitly stated.

Tony Bogs said:
And it is a cap, so discharging is a linear proces, unlike chemical storage.

What doesn't make sense is a claim of capacity that could only be achieved by fully discharging to zero voltage... because, as mentioned above, the relationship of voltage to state of charge is completely unlike an electrochemical cell.

Restoring the critical and omitted context:

brian_ said:
Then a set of 1200 would store 13,122 kJ or 3645 Wh, matching the 3.7 kWh claim... but would have to be fully discharged to zero volts to extract that energy. Something does not make sense here.

With no voltage conversion component (as also claimed), an energy store with output dropping to zero is not usable.

Duncan

· #16 · Mar 21, 2018

75 kg - and it contains 1200 off 3000F capacitors
(if the 75 kg I remember was right)
That gives 62.5 gms/capacitor

Less than that

In the video he was claiming that their "secret source" was to do with - enabling slow charging and re-charging
And
having the capacitors all balance properly

Those were the improvements that their company had made

I could be wrong but I don't see either one as an actual problem

The key features to me are the energy/kg and the energy/dollar

And then we get to Brians point - about the voltage change

I really really want to see inside one of these boxes

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Tony Bogs

· #17 · Mar 21, 2018

The key features for me are: 1 million cycles (lower but stiil high at higher amps), wide temperature range, high reliability, no fire hazard.

So I guess the company picked the right application area as their first target for introduction: solar and Australia (outback).

Karter2

Discussion Starter · #18 · Mar 21, 2018 (Edited)

Tony Bogs said:
I don't see the smoking gun.

And it is a cap, so discharging is a linear proces, unlike chemical storage. Not a direct drop-in replacement for Li-ion in an EV.

Thats the point,... They claim it IS a drop in replacement for any 48v battery.
Its normal operating range being 44-54 volts.
They even have a demo vodeo of the unit powering a industrial electric fork truck.
https://youtu.be/Rm69TFxicfM
Note they also have smaller versions designed as direct replacements for 12v and 24v applications.... (car and truck lead acid replacements)

brian_

· #19 · Mar 21, 2018

Karter2 said:
Thats the point,... They claim it IS a drop in replacement for any 48v battery.
Its normal operating range being 44-54 volts.

Okay, good catch

Energy stored by 1200 3000 F capacitors at 54/20 = 2.7 volts:
1200 * 0.5 * 3000 * 2.7**2 = 13,122 kJ or 3.645 kWh

Energy stored by 1200 3000 F capacitors at 44/20 = 2.2 volts:
1200 * 0.5 * 3000 * 2.2**2 = 8,712 kJ or or 2.42 kWh

Net energy available over operating range of 44 V to 54 V:
13,122 kJ - 8,712 kJ = 4410 kJ or 1.225 kWh

(Yes, I know that can be more elegantly expressed as
1200 * 0.5 * 3000 * (2.7**2 - 2.2**2) = 4410 kJ or 1.225 kWh
but I'm not sure that's as clear)

So, can someone explain either what I have missed in my calculations, or how the other 2.4 kWh of stored energy is supposed to be delivered, once the voltage has dropped to 44 volts? How about why +6/-4 volts is an acceptable change from a nominal 48 volts, in competition with a lithium battery?

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Karter2

Discussion Starter · #20 · Mar 21, 2018 (Edited)

Minor point Brian, but he didnt say there was no dc/dc conversion......he actually said there is no "in series". dc/dc conversion !
Now that may be nothing ,..or it may distract from the fact that there could be some cell level conversion trickery,.
That previous photo with the blue supercap bank showed a lot of cell level electronics.
With regards to the voltage range, a typical 48v lithium pack (13 S of 18650s ), would typically have a full capacity range of 39-55volts ( 3v - 4.2v per cell) .

This reminded me of a previous "ultracap" discussion...
Anybody remember the "fastcharge" 1000 hp drag bike thread ?..
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178345&highlight=1000+drag+bike
What happened to that project ?... Their blog is gone and the site is "dusty"

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