DIY Electric Car Forums banner

1 - 20 of 30 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Greetings!

Have had an account here forever, but I try not to go crazy posting on forums much anymore. Hopefully this is the right place on this forum to post this info. :)

Some folks may recognize me as "the Tesla hacker" from news articles, other forums, my youtube channel, etc. My partner and I have finally publicized some of the product offerings of our company, HSR Motors, LLC. We specialize in repurposing parts from Tesla vehicles and currently have quite a few products available.

Our showcase products are the Tesla drive units with full custom control. We're the only company that has true full control over all variants of the Tesla drive units without hardware modifications. Large and small units. We also have custom tuned performance versions available with up to 634 HP that you simply won't find anywhere else. We've put nearly two years of research and development into our custom control systems to make sure we have a product we can be proud of.

We're pricing our offerings quite competitively from a cost per kW/HP perspective as well. Considering the power you can get from these packages, you're not going to find much that compares.

Additionally, we have Tesla battery modules of all variants for sale with hard to beat energy densities.

We'll also soon have liquid cooled Tesla chargers capable of handing J1772 signalling up to 72A in a single package, as well as 40 and 48 versions which can be ganged for up to 80A J1772 charging.

Many more products in development, so much more to come.

Just throwing it out here since this is definitely a community that would probably have some interest in this. Check us out!

Best!

Jason Hughes
Co-Founder
HSR Motors, LLC

https://hsrmotors.com/
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,364 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Edit: Just to be clear, the product prices on our site include the actual drive units and controllers, and we have these in inventory and ready to ship.

I, for one, certainly won't discourage the pursuit of open source solutions for anything. If an open source solution will meet your needs, then by all means. I've contributed to and have released many open source projects over the last two decades.

However, in this particular case, replacing the inverter controller just is not the best way to go. I've investigated this avenue, and of course you can make the motor work by replacing the inverter controller. But Tesla Motors has put years of R&D into perfecting the inverter software and getting it to the point where it is both highly efficient and powerful. If you ditch their software, you ditch all of those advantages and have to start from scratch. Will an open source solution get to parity at some point? Maybe. But will you have the efficiency and performance of the existing software? Probably not.

Specifically, efficiency. Tesla has done some pretty creative work with their control software in order to make these drive units as efficient as possible... something pretty important in an EV. In my testing using several third party inverter control setups in an actual test vehicle (a Model S shell basically) Tesla's inverter control was at best over 70% more efficient and at worst about 13% more efficient than the controller-replacement solutions. And these were solutions sourced from well funded companies who are experts in this field. They speculated that it would take a substantial amount of time and development to get closer to Tesla's efficiency.

With what we've called the "HSR PERFORMANCE +" Tesla drive unit package, specifically, this is a special case with limited availability, hence the admittedly high price tag. The vast majority of Tesla inverters simply can not handle the higher current available with this package. My partner and I have handled and processed nearly 100 salvage Model S and X vehicles over the past couple of years. Out of those, about half have been completely dismantled for parts. Out of those, only about 3 drive units have had the hardware needed to increase performance like we have, and one of those is in my personal RWD Model S being run completely by an HSR controller. So, no vaporware here.

Tesla officially makes two variants of the drive units. Base and Sport. Contrary to popular belief, and even my own original belief, these units actually do have different inverter hardware. The base units can not handle the increased current of the sport variant, and the vast majority of the Sport variants can't handle much more power than they already do. Believe me, I've tried, and had a couple of units fail quite spectacularly during R&D, including a normal Sport variant inverter while testing for viability of using the HSRP+ solution on more revisions.

For the Sport variants, there are many iterations out there. The majority of these top out at about 1200A input capability, in practice a bit less around 1150A. However, there is one revision with hardware capable of handling significantly more current, and it's a very uncommon revision.

In any case, Tesla seems to know the limits of their drive units quite well. Their inverter control software is actually very impressive and monitors all sorts of variables to ensure that the inverter isn't being overworked and risking damage to any components under any conditions. These units are designed for normal street car use and just happen to also have massively high peak power capability. The hardware itself, however, isn't designed to do these peak power outputs indefinitely as might be attempted with an inverter control replacement.

At the end of the day it's certainly up to people to make their own decision as to what solution to use for their own projects.

Right now, my company has full control over every variant of Tesla drive unit, including the rare revision needed for some massive power output as well as the smaller versions. Again, we retain the Tesla inverter controller and all of the benefits of their software and engineering in the process.

Not only do we have full control while retaining every benefit of Tesla's own software, we have dozens of these drive units in stock and ready to go right now.

Here's a shot from a couple months ago of one of our racks of Tesla drive units:

(Didn't have a newer picture on hand... this has been organized a bit better since. "Please excuse the crudity of this model. I didn't have time to build it to scale or paint it...")

Additionally, we probably have every other Tesla component in stock. So, please contact with any other parts requests.

-Jason/wk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
171 Posts
I'm willing to bet we'll get more performance out of the open source controllers and given your "PERFORMANCE +" product lists at $13,999 (+ shipping), at a much lower cost ;)
Kevin, why so negative?

Someone comes up with a plug and play, OVER 600HP Tesla drive unit for under 15K; this is a good thing!

Jason, have you experimented with improving the cooling of the Tesla?

I see you list an approximate limit of 35kW continous power.

Towing a load up a mountain pass could easily need more than that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,364 Posts
Kevin, why so negative?
I don't see this closed system with limited doa drivetrain warranty as any different from those that have been offered by numerous other vendors in the past.

Personally I'm more interested in a system that I can tune and maintain even if the vendor goes bust or gets disinterested. I don't see any advantage of replacing one closed system with another? :confused:

I'm also rather disappointed at the pricing... I recently paid 300 Euros for Gen 2 chargers which HSR list for 2,899 :eek:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
I don't see this closed system with limited doa drivetrain warranty as any different from those that have been offered by numerous other vendors in the past.

Personally I'm more interested in a system that I can tune and maintain even if the vendor goes bust or gets disinterested. I don't see any advantage of replacing one closed system with another? :confused:

I'm also rather disappointed at the pricing... I recently paid 300 Euros for Gen 2 chargers which HSR list for 2,899 :eek:
Actually, it's not completely a closed system, and details of the controller and exactly how to tune nearly every aspect of the system are released under license to customers who purchase our packages and request it.

As for the chargers, keep in mind these are fully usable chargers. Not just the Tesla part itself. They are completely usable for a conversion out of the box and, like all of our Tesla related offering, retain full control of the existing hardware without modification. Drop in, plug and play. All of our controllers contain a "basic" operations mode in where limited to no additional work is needed to make them functional. For example, you can make our Tesla drive unit packages work by simply hooking them to a battery pack, 12V source, and a single button (toggle D/N) if you didn't need/want any additional controls. Same for our charger packages that support J1772. Hook to a battery + 12V source, plug in the AC EVSE and it will go to town. Additional controls are available for those who want to use them, but literally everything will work independently and without fuss.

Pricing is actually quite competitive considering the price of alternative solutions. In any case, no one's forcing you to buy anything. If you want to do something on your own, by all means.

Kevin, why so negative?

Someone comes up with a plug and play, OVER 600HP Tesla drive unit for under 15K; this is a good thing!

Jason, have you experimented with improving the cooling of the Tesla?

I see you list an approximate limit of 35kW continous power.

Towing a load up a mountain pass could easily need more than that.
Thanks :)

I have experimented with cooling, and actually I could adjust upward some of the numbers based on my ongoing tests. The power output numbers list are actually quite conservative. The 35kW continuous number, specifically, is definitely a bit low with proper cooling. Honestly, I'd prefer to be cautious with the specs and have people end up with more than they expected vs over-promising.

As an example, I've used a Model X with my controller while pulling a cargo trailer (running on the rear motor only, and pulling a load of Chevy Volt battery packs no less) up a relatively local mountain pass without any thermal issues... even consuming nearly 2kWh/mi at points running it pretty hard.

We've also experimented with running the Tesla A/C compressor and chiller (another product I'll be listing soon) to chill the coolant to the drive unit down to near freezing in an attempt to increase performance. Unfortunately even this doesn't impact the thermal rise of components significantly enough to make a difference. These motors just weren't designed for continuous high power use. They can do some ridiculous things in short time periods, but at the end of the day the cooling loop just doesn't have the ability to sap away enough heat.

At the end of the day, you don't see Tesla's having issues with mountain passes.

Overall, they're awesome setups. I consider the Tesla drive units sort of the holy grail of the EV world. They pack a punch, and they're quite efficient. The smaller drive units I've even calculated at mid 90s% efficiency peaks... it's ridiculous.

Anyway, we already have several customers who have been in contact me with directly over the past few months doing some pretty awesome conversions with these packages. I can't wait to see and be able to share some of their progress.

Plus there's my own 3000EV project in the works using two large performance units. :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,364 Posts
Actually, it's not completely a closed system, and details of the controller and exactly how to tune nearly every aspect of the system are released under license to customers who purchase our packages and request it.
I think that's the very definition of a closed system :rolleyes:

Pricing is actually quite competitive considering the price of alternative solutions.
I think that's the difference in approach... you're trying to support a profitable business based on historic EV pricing, whereas I believe wrecked OEM parts should make conversions much more affordable.

In any case, no one's forcing you to buy anything. If you want to do something on your own, by all means.
Sure, the market will choose... and I believe it'll choose lower cost products based on open source solutions :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
I think that's the very definition of a closed system
Open does not have to mean free. Just because it's not open to you doesn't mean it's not open to others who opt to purchase the system. Folks who purchase our systems get full control over pretty much every variable and every function possible. They also get full support from my company in integrating our system into their build.

I think that's the difference in approach... you're trying to support a profitable business based on historic EV pricing, whereas I believe wrecked OEM parts should make conversions much more affordable.
Actually, believe it or not I'm trying to drive cost of using OEM parts down. Many of the parts I have on hand ended up coming from people who bought wrecks and expected to be able to use things without much issue, only to find out that the Tesla components are a nightmare to get working without extensive research and work that, frankly, most people who tinker with cars or even EVs don't end up having the skills to do so. Not to say that some don't, but quite a few folks have lost their shirts gambling.

I'm definitely not thinking like other shops trying to put insane markups on OEM components for ridiculous profit margins. Actually, the fact that so many are trying to gouge the DIY folks with insane prices for so little is a big part of the reason my company exists. I don't expect people to pay outrageous prices for a base non-performance Tesla drive unit with less than perfect control, for example. But, I don't think it's unreasonable to sell them at a price that reflects the actual part values plus a small markup cost recovery for the R&D needed for what has been required to get our control system to where it is today. I'm not working to make a living off of this. I don't need to. But, if I can sustain the company with the few people needed to keep the ball rolling, then that's what I'm going to do.

Suffice it to say, even if I sell every Tesla drive unit I have in stock right now I still will have not made any actual profit on this venture. It quite literally is just recovering some portion of my investment into making these components more accessible and usable by the EV community. I'm not trying to rip off folks. I just want to see these components used in some awesome builds.

In fact, it will actually be difficult to drop the prices on these things further, if at all, given the costs associated with getting them available. Sure, you might think gambling on the salvage market is better... but the math just isn't really there when you're talking about having components available immediately and consistently.

While some shops might have one drive unit, or a couple of chargers, for example... we have dozens of both in stock and can get them to anywhere in the world in a reasonable time frame.

Sure, the market will choose... and I believe it'll choose lower cost products based on open source solutions
In this case, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Lower cost just doesn't always work out to mean the best solution. At the same time, overpriced offerings I've seen from other vendors are not the best, either. At the end of the day, if you end up spending months or years making your low cost solution working vs just using something that works out of the box, well, you end up spending a dollar to save a penny. Obviously there are people that prefer this route, though, and you're certainly one of them. Kudos. Doesn't mean everyone is inclined to do so, nor should they be.

Right now, there simply is no solution out there for using Tesla components in a conversion that even remotely compares to what my company has to offer, and we have it today. Given the amount of work it's taken to get to this point it is pretty likely to remain that way for some time.

The feedback I've gotten about our offerings in the very short time they've been publicized has been overwhelmingly positive on all fronts, including pricing. If you want plug-and-play Tesla components with true full control, we're really the only actual provider out there.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,364 Posts
Open does not have to mean free.
I completely agree and I'm happy to pay for the tested hardware/software that is developed on top of open source projects.

What I think is very sad is the effort wasted reinventing the wheel... iirc you're the fifth company offering products based on hacking the Tesla drive unit... imagine how much further along we'd all be if just one of you had chosen to release that knowledge as open source from the beginning? Then you could have built a business providing tested solutions while benefiting from the knowledge and effort available from the crowd.

Actually, believe it or not I'm trying to drive cost of using OEM parts down.
Your pricing doesn't really support that claim... I recently participated in a group buy with six other people, we paid 300 Euros for Gen 2 chargers. Even in the US today a quick look on eBay has them listed at $450 which is a lot less than the $2,899 you're asking :confused:

Anyway, the market will decide on the value of your proposition. With regards to my comments at the start of this thread, I'm convinced open source will outperform the closed solutions in the near future... I suggest we get on with our builds and move this debate into the 'real' world :cool:
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,442 Posts
i think it is great that solutions such as this are available. It's all good to be re-using salvage parts and there are different levels of diy.

Jason has reverse engineered these parts to a far greater degree than anyone else, and he is making them available for a very reasonable price and a great value considering the effort and system complexity involved. Other folks that don't have his skills and resources can either try to make a diy work by other means or purchase some other solution. But for some folks this would be a bargain to immediately get working Tesla hardware with full CAN buss control capability.

The great thing is that otherwise wasted Tesla parts can now be re-purposed into diy cars. More solutions is a good thing. The main thing is to get more EVs on the road, and up to now Tesla parts have been useless.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
I completely agree and I'm happy to pay for the tested hardware/software that is developed on top of open source projects.

What I think is very sad is the effort wasted reinventing the wheel... iirc you're the fifth company offering products based on hacking the Tesla drive unit... imagine how much further along we'd all be if just one of you had chosen to release that knowledge as open source from the beginning? Then you could have built a business providing tested solutions while benefiting from the knowledge and effort available from the crowd.

Your pricing doesn't really support that claim... I recently participated in a group buy with six other people, we paid 300 Euros for Gen 2 chargers. Even in the US today a quick look on eBay has them listed at $450 which is a lot less than the $2,899 you're asking :confused:

Anyway, the market will decide on the value of your proposition. With regards to my comments at the start of this thread, I'm convinced open source will outperform the closed solutions in the near future... I suggest we get on with our builds and move this debate into the 'real' world :cool:
I mean, you can argue pricing until the cows come home. But the fact right now is that I have dozens of fully usable chargers of every variant Tesla has released. You have some 35 lb aluminum paper weights that might be able to be used as working chargers some day.

As for cooperating and getting a good solution out there, funny you should mention that. I actually started out by trying to help two different groups succeed in controlling the Tesla drive units. Without saying any names, one of them decided to essentially ignore what was, as the time, free collaboration, and is now trying to sell a base non-performance Tesla drive unit kit for just under $20k, which is insane. The other went on to screw over a client with half of a solution (now happily my client, thankfully) and doesn't actually offer anything publicly or otherwise anymore.

Open sourcing such a solution also opens people up to a lot of risk in parts sourcing. For example, would it surprise you to know that the failure rate of the Gen2 Tesla chargers source from salvage vehicles is in double digit percentages? These units, especially earlier revisions, sometimes end up with internal physical damage when a vehicle is in a collision, or even poorly handled, despite no outside damage to the charger. This is a core reason why the pricing is completely fair and where it is. There is certainly value in mitigating that risk through quality assurance and testing prior to customer shipments. There are also basically zero EV chargers out there anywhere near these power levels available at these prices, literally around $0.25/W.... something like 70% less than comparable solutions available.

There are also technical and possibly even some legal drawbacks to releasing our solution as an open source product. Suffice it to say, Tesla has made many many revisions to the inverter firmware and probably equally as many hardware revisions. We've done the R&D needed to ensure our solution works with all of them. Even an inverter control replacement solution will run into significant issues across revisions given the extensive hardware changes that have taken place over the years.

In any case, for these products and more I think it's obvious open source just isn't anywhere near where my company is already, nor is it the best solution for those who want to seriously use these components. Will it get there? Who knows. Maybe some day. From my perspective it's everyone else that's wasting their time since the solution is already available. Either way, I know continued complaining about such things isn't going to change anything, and it's not putting more electrons to the pavement, so yeah, back to our real world builds indeed.



i think it is great that solutions such as this are available. It's all good to be re-using salvage parts and there are different levels of diy.

Jason has reverse engineered these parts to a far greater degree than anyone else, and he is making them available for a very reasonable price and a great value considering the effort and system complexity involved. Other folks that don't have his skills and resources can either try to make a diy work by other means or purchase some other solution. But for some folks this would be a bargain to immediately get working Tesla hardware with full CAN buss control capability.

The great thing is that otherwise wasted Tesla parts can now be re-purposed into diy cars. More solutions is a good thing. The main thing is to get more EVs on the road, and up to now Tesla parts have been useless.
Thanks, and I completely agree. I'm a huge supporter of EVs and renewable energy. Some people here may not have seen my home off-grid solar project that's unlike any other off-grid setup you'd expect. This is a 44kW array powering nearly 200kWh worth of energy storage with 64kW of AC output capacity (ability to charge two Teslas at 20kW while heating the house with electricity, running the pool equipment, watering the lawn from the creek, and cooking spaghetti on an electric range), all without needing the grid. Yeah. Take that coal-fired utility company! (Bunch of photos here and some videos on my Youtube channel). I also have driven a Tesla Model S since 2013 as my primary or only vehicle. I've purchased four Tesla vehicles from Tesla all together (three S and an X) since I'm a supporter of their overall mission. I want there to be more EVs and more solar out there, for sure. The more of us that drive on sunlight the better we all will be.

To that end, I actually had a fun conversation with an EV conversion shop that is out in California this morning. They were interested in our products, and brought up some pretty pointed questions about why we priced things where we have, why we've priced some things significantly lower than other vendors, and why our solution is better for them and their clients vs other routes such as a competitor, an open source solution, or even sourcing parts themselves are coming up with their own solution. At the end of the conversation the folks I was speaking with had been given so many pretty irrefutable obvious and not-so-obvious benefits to our approach vs any other route that they committed to using our packages for their next two immediate upcoming projects, placing deposits for the same.

Why did it make so much sense for them? A lot of reasons. There is a huge cost benefit and risk mitigation benefit to having us source the parts, test them, and take 100% of the risk that the components from a wreck are usable. Huge time benefit to having a component ready to run out of the box vs having to spend time sourcing the components and getting them functional. Our packages are available today, and we generally have stock of all variants offered, limiting availability uncertainty and lead times down to practically nothing. Our knowledge and support for the product (which I should probably make a bigger deal out of on our website) is available to them when integrating our products into their builds. And many many more reasons why our products make financial sense and are beyond the best offerings of their kind available.

I'm not a sales guy, I'm a tech guy. I've always felt that if a product is good enough it should pretty much sell itself without having to really push it on people... not with anything but the facts.

I publicly announced the HSR Motors website just 3 days ago in basically three places: My Twitter, TeslaMotorsClub, and here. As of earlier today the site had already received over 12,000 unique visitors, and I've received nearly 200 inquiries, many of which are solid sales leads or even already resulting in deposits or purchases of our products. Seriously. A couple of tweets and a couple of forum posts and I've already generated more interest than I could have possibly expected. We have solid products, with good prices. Our website has all the specs and info to present them, and they quite literally just sell themselves on the facts.... as it should be.

So, thanks everyone for the support. Let's get some more EVs on the road! :cool:
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
6,088 Posts
I will just add my support - probably not my money as I'm a Scotsman and my entire car only cost $8000
But If I was rich I would be contacting you!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
I disagree, you use FUD like a sales pro :p

For the record, we've not seen any failures in Gen 2 or later chargers, nor has anyone on this forum reported doa or other issues afaik. Maybe we've all been lucky...
I just use the facts of the matter as possible. If that sells products, then that's all good.

As for your charger luck, quite possible. Again, it's mainly early revisions of the Gen2 units that are the issue. I'm also not sure the source of your group buy of chargers, either. You posted a picture a few posts back and my first thought was that these did not come from salvage vehicles. Won't share my reasoning for that speculation since I'm not 100% sure, but a few hints suggested otherwise.

A bit OT for this thread anyway. Feel free to PM me about that, though, if you wouldn't mind confirming or disproving a hunch of mine.

I will just add my support - probably not my money as I'm a Scotsman and my entire car only cost $8000
But If I was rich I would be contacting you!
Thanks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,364 Posts
I'm also not sure the source of your group buy of chargers, either. You posted a picture a few posts back and my first thought was that these did not come from salvage vehicles. Won't share my reasoning for that speculation since I'm not 100% sure, but a few hints suggested otherwise.
All my parts are from salvage... we started with US sources but now use Europe almost exclusively.

I know Damien's charger is from a European salvage car. I guess Anner's and Colin's are from the US, not sure about Tom's, or bublik's.

Between members of this forum and other people that I know who are working on the chargers I'd say we have most versions covered... what we don't see are the issues you're reporting with parts from salvage cars not working :confused:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,364 Posts
But If I was rich I would be contacting you!
Isn't this the point... asking $2,899 for a charger that can be purchased for $450 on eBay is ensuring that only wealthy people can convert cars to electric drive :(

Don't get me wrong, I completely support vendors who wan't to produce products that make conversions cheaper and easier. That's why I intend to buy assembled and tested inverter controllers from Damien, BMS systems from Wolf, IRS from third parties, etc., etc. I can also see value in offering fully tested and certified systems like those from Anne. What I don't support is the unnecessary withholding of knowledge that would allow an end user to use eBay bargains if they wish... as always this is just another open versus closed debate :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
480 Posts
I for one am glad ALL of the options are available. Fully tested plug and play systems for higher dollars than the DIY version Absolutely have a place. There's the crowd that buys ebay/junkyard parts for cheap-but they spend countless hours researching and building to take advantage of that savings. There is also the crowd that would rather spend the money for someone else to do all of that leg work and there is nothing wrong with that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,364 Posts
There's the crowd that buys ebay/junkyard parts for cheap-but they spend countless hours researching and building to take advantage of that savings.
Lets keep this in perspective... these six items came from a single source and in total cost less than the $2,899 HST want for a single charger :eek:

This is not difficult, we put together six buyers and asked salvage yards to bid for the total order... guess what? Lots did :p

Now, imagine if the knowledge to use these parts had been shared via open source... we could get on with using the parts rather than developing open source controllers or reinventing the wheel :rolleyes:
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
480 Posts
You and those 5 other people are not his market. It is possible that there is a place for a company with well supported products sitting on the shelf at prices that reflect that. I don't begrudge him or his company for investing lots of time and capital in a business endeavor. I hope his company thrives and I hope all the open source guys produce beautiful work. There's plenty of room for both.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
106 Posts
You can count me as another DIY EV builder that appreciates multiple options when it comes to component selection. Some will want to use components that are more off-the-shelf and ready to use, while others may be interested in putting together their own solution. Or maybe a mix of both! :). The builder will just choose what fits their needs and skills, and everybody wins.
 
1 - 20 of 30 Posts
Top