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So a car five times the price costs 50% more to insure??

That's not how insurance works.

Easy Counterpoint: The Land Rover costs only 15% less, and yet insurance is 50% less. Teslas are a ripoff. QED.

Actual car repair costs are dwarfed by the medical component, injuries, hospital bills, etc. Which somewhat plateau across all makes and models. There's a medical baseline that represents a large component of the necessary premium. This means differences between vehicles are even larger than they seem, because the first, oh, suppose $500 (made up, just for illustration) is medical. So now an $1100 vs. $1700 isn't 54%, it's ($1100-500) $600 vs. ($1700-500) $1200. A full 100% difference of the component from the actual car type.

This study was an average of existing insurance prices of real drivers for those vehicles, not a baseline cost for an equivalent driver across all vehicles. So these numbers include some selection bias.

The way that this would make a difference is, suppose drivers with a poorer driving history are attracted to Teslas. Then this method of sampling would show them higher than another similarly priced vehicle, even if same driver in each would pay the same amount (fictional scenario we have no info about).


Another component might be that Teslas are attractive to rich people who don't care about their price of their premiums because cost isn't an issue to them. They might not be poor drivers in a crash sense, but poor drivers in a demerits sense, that they don't care how many speeding/etc tickets they accumulate because, it's only money and they're rich, who cares. If Tesla drivers are less scared about the insurance impact of demerits on their license, their premiums will be higher. This is not true of a random person promoted into a Tesla, and thus their premium might not reflect so large an increase.

However, being blind to this, the reverse could just as likely be true...

Perhaps Teslas are attractive to people who're never on the road or who drive like grannies, never get into crashes, always run a clean license, (like, say, stereotypical Prius drivers) and these (high) premiums represent a huge discount to what some normal or average driver would be charged. Maybe it should actually be $2200.

Another thing to consider is that the actuarial models used by the underwriters can be increasingly competitive (closer to cost) the more accurate they are. The more data they have, the more accurate those models can be. Any type of unknown or uncertainty causes a spike in premiums so the insurance company doesn't lose their shirt if they guess wrong.

Supply chain uncertainty? Repair uncertainty? Driver uncertainty? All make higher premiums just for the uncertainty itself, let alone the actual higher cost of those components.
 

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the data is the amount paid out by insurers ("cost to the insurer per year"), not the insurance premium paid by owners (as the title suggests).
Nice catch.

That simplifies things. However, the same biases are in place, and, to a very close degree, insurance premiums reflect costs to the insurer. The only additional variable I can think of is their confidence in their amalgamated payouts, with the less data having a larger markup as represented in premiums.

I.E. If the average payout for a vehicle is $1100, they will charge some likely fixed percentage above that (10%, 50%, I don't have a lot of knowledge of insurance markup).

So the entire previous conversation is still relevant except for using it to guess your premium directly (versus relatively).
 

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Not least of which would be ...the driver age, occupation, claim history, driving offence history, address, annual mileage driven, garaging or street parking, etc etc

Erm, no. I don't think so.



This number is the average cost to the insurer for the vehicle. It amalgamates all of those factors by observation. I.E. When all is said and done, all payouts divided by all policies, what was the average cost.
 

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You are implying that a 19yr old , with convictions and a history of car accidents , living in Compton, with only street parking,...would pay the same premium for the Tesla as a retired university professor, with a clean driving record, living on private estate the Hamptons with a 5 car classic collection all insured with the same company ?
Obviously not.

I'm saying that it amalgamates all of that info, and doesn't reveal the particulars and, thus, induces a selection bias to the dataset.

I'm saying you can't draw a conclusion on it necessarily, because they are are observational only.

But I am saying that, whether it was average premium or average cost to insurer doesn't make much impact on the discussion, because both are observational with the same biases. What distorts one distorts the other the same way. The premium side of things will be slightly higher than the insurance costs, if you care about the actual number, that matters, but that's not the point of this discussion really. The point is how expensive insurance on Teslas are (whether from cost or premium, nearly the same thing) relative and compared to other vehicles.
 

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Restricting access to parts for repairing vehicles is a deliberate Tesla policy.

Is it? Or do they just not have the production capacity to produce extra stock items?


Like, if they're cranking out cars as fast as they can, which still isn't fast enough to meet demand, then any parts they make available for repairs will slow down the production line even further.


I don't think that's the same thing as them being deliberately obtuse and restrictive.
 

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Simply no. It is very much by design.
Oh, so you've spoken to someone from high up in Tesla that has confirmed their intentions?

There are no "parts shortages" for the Model S or X Try buying them to repair a wreck.
I'm not sure what your point is.

Is your point that there are plenty of parts in stock and they are easy to buy? If so, then what's the problem? Just buy them.

Or is your point that it is difficult to buy parts because they are not available anywhere? If so, then there's clearly parts shortages.

Why they would NOT want a stretch Model S limo escapes me.
I can think of several reasons off the top of my head. Since so much of the car is electronic, it is untested to perform correctly when you start adding signalling delays and structural changes. How will the autopilot react to being 8 feet longer? Lots of stuff going on in the brains to mess up.

Seems prudent to me that as the electronics are engineered for a certain platform, they should be disabled and, if someone wants to use the carcass to do something new with it, to do it from scratch.

For a supposedly open source car, Tesla has been a horror in recent years. Therre are currently no SCHEMATICS even of the Model 3. Shortage of PDF space?
I don't think the Tesla is supposed to be an opn source car. What was announced was that they were waiving rights to their patents and essentially giving that away. Not that this is a community project that everyone is also entitled to demand specifics. It's not an open source non-profit, it's a company that's not going to sue you for using specific parts of its IP.

I think perhaps you're letting personal motivation influence your objectiveness.
 

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Assuming this post was by Jack from EVTV then he has plenty of ownership experience

Yeah, I know who he is.

When someone starts talking about how they know the secret intentions of company, just because of how they personally feel about it, I think it's reasonable to say they're not being as objective as they think they are.

Furthermore, I can confirm that in Europe Tesla are working really hard to prevent us from repairing our cars.

Okay, so, I get how it might feel that way, and how frustrating that can be. But I can think of other explanations too, beyond intent, malice, and conspiracy. Occam's Razor and all.

To me, it seems reasonable that a car company would want its vehicles on the road as much as possible with their owners as happy as possible. To not develop a reputation for being difficult to repair, or for not having spare parts. That is a desirable position to be in. So if that is the position Tesla is not in right now, why?

Is it because they're meanies who are out to get you? Or is it because they're doing the best they can but have limitations?


I have no skin in the game, I have no ego attached to the discussion. Either way it seems like Tesla is screwing this up, I don't doubt everyone's experiences that it's difficult to get repaired, I'm just not sure I buy the conclusion that it's intentional.

I say this as an owner of an older Tesla vehicle who's had lots of part supply issues

I believe you, and others that say that. But it seems more reasonable that Tesla lacks the production capacity (something we also know that they struggle with), versus that they have mountains of parts that they're hording and not letting anyone use just so that vehicles have to stay off the road for 6 months. That doesn't make sense.
 

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Nothing much has changed here since my last visit months ago. You guys type a tremendous amount of text with no information content but lots of conjecture.
Sure Jack, just go insult and belittle an entire community because of what 2 or 3 people you're interacting with say. We're all a hivemind, not individuals.

Yes, go on and become as narrow-minded as possible so you never have to think. Everyone here on these forums is the same personality with exactly the same opinions.

And, pot and kettles and all that, you're not really one to lecture others on verbosity or drivel. Have you looked in a mirror or experienced your own content?

Setting aside the Model 3 for the moment, and discussing JUST the Model S, there simply IS no shortage of parts. But many are "restricted" and even those repairing wrecks have actually PURCHASED non-restricted parts up to the point where Tesla became aware of what they were doing, and then suddenly they had ZERO access to parts.
To what end?

How does this conspiracy benefit them as a company?

Maybe you're right, I dunno, but it's not very convincing.

This is not a theory. It is not conjecture. It isn't any of your wild eyed defense of your hero.
Once again, unless you know their intentions, then sorry, but, yeah, it is just a theory and conjecture. All you know is that it's difficult for you to buy parts in some cases.

Or just dumb the world down to black & white, yes and no, you're with me or against me.

It couldn't be just that I have a reasonable, middle-of-the-road approach to things and haven't formed a solid opinion one way or the other. No, the only reason anyone wouldn't jump aboard taking everything you say on faith alone, is because they must be delusionally defensive about someone you've branded your enemy.

Again, like almost everyone, I have no skin in the game. It's a company, not a way of life.

Elon Musk very specifically DID use the term OPEN SOURCE when originally describing his patent position, though he has furiously and regularly backpedalled away from that position at the behest of his legal team.
Okay, so, he made an immediate correction because he misspoke? Because the term for what they want to do isn't legally equivalent to Open Source?

I.E. "We choose to let you do what you want with this information, but we still own it" is slightly different than "We choose to no longer own this information and are making it public property". In terms of use it's identical, but in ownership it's different.

Are we entitled to this? How many years are you going to run around complaining about it?

And yes, I am Jack Rickard and cannot help it. I always was.
You make acknowledgement of yourself as if doing so excuses your behavior rather than defines it. You can choose to act however you want, regardless of how you excuse it.
 

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Fascinating video from Rich Benoit which includes a list of repair costs from an authorised Tesla body shop... easy to see why insurers are writing off these cars :eek:
I mean, no one takes their car back to a dealership to get repaired unless it's under warranty. There's a reason they call them "stealerships". Him claiming the dealership is charging a ridiculous amount for new parts, with the counterclaim that you can buy used refurbished parts cheaper and he'll give you a shock so there's no need to buy one... so? That's true of any car. And dealer prices for any kind of work on a high-end car are always gouging rates.

His example of his one buddy who had one shipped to Bangladesh and then complained there was no service center there, well... he's just being absurdist and dramatic. No shit when you take it to a third world country that they have no presence in that... there's no presence there.

Those are such poor arguments that it makes me doubt the truth or reasonableness of some of the other things he says.

The interesting part to me wasn't how expensive OEM parts were, I expect that, it was the lack of authorized service centers.

Why is this?

Is it because Tesla is restrictive or because most shops, for the volume of Teslas in the area, have no incentive or interest in investing in tooling and training to meet Tesla's standards? That to me is a combination of EV-specific and small-manufacturer issues. A rare low-volume ICE car a regular mechanic could at least know his way around, an EV, not so much. Meanwhile, GM and Nissan don't have that issue because of their built in scope.

Either way, doesn't matter from a spending standpoint, if it's expensive then it's expensive. But it does matter for those that are all angry about it as to who's to blame and making claims about Tesla's intentions.

These are things that make Tesla look bad, so, to me it doesn't make sense to claim it's intentional. More, they lack competence or ability.
 
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