Magic words: driver circuit. Pwm is essentially controlling how the igbt is turned on and when, there are driver chips that have a lot of ancilliary functions like desat detection. My caveat is yes it can be done, but it isn't as fail proof as a genuine factory controller makes it seem to be. A lot of silicone power modules have been sacrificed to the smoke gods from not so good ideas. If it were truly that easy, there would be Chinese clone kits for every controller on the market
The Cheap, $10, Simple, DC Motor Controller (Hijacking a Prius Gen 2 Inverter)
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Four inverters? Any idea of the part number of the three larger IGBT's inside? Bet they're 400 amps and 1200 volts. Thanks.This is an Awsome thread Matt... Thanks for starting this....
Now.. I have 4 Prius inverters in my gargae and gotta quit being lazy about doing somthing with them..
Man, not sure when I would have time to check..
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They are dice mounted on bespoke channelized substrates -- you might get lucky with a microscope, though most custom silicon rarely has part numbers where you'll find a datasheet.
Easiest way is to destructively test with a high voltage power supply to see where the breakdown is.
They may be 800V devices, given how long the design has been around.
Easiest way is to destructively test with a high voltage power supply to see where the breakdown is.
They may be 800V devices, given how long the design has been around.
[Edited by mod - I don't know how or why you had a triple-nested table in your reply, framing everything, but I fixed it.]
I'm just about finished with the 650 amp DC controller. It uses two 600 amp IGBT's with liquid cooling. Operated fine into an Advance 9" DC motor. Parts cost over $600 new.
Meanwhile, I've been investigating a Prius generation 1, 2, or 3 inverter conversion to a DC motor controller. I dislike the generation 3 greatly due to its special "open face" many IGBT's used and instead believe the generation 1 and 2 use more common components such as familiar stock capacitors and active components.
I hope to make the 25 mile trip to the local Pick and Pull junkyard and purchase a Prius inverter for their stated $60. Prius cars are VERY popular in California; they're everywhere and the local junk yard has 3 generation 1's and a dozen generation 2's.
I have absolutely no question I can convert the Prius AC Inverter into a DC Controller.
![Circuit component Passive circuit component Hardware programmer Computer hardware Gas]()
Stay tuned. I do this for enjoyment and the learning experience. But I may be sorta' slow.
Picture of 650 amp controller enclosed.
I'm just about finished with the 650 amp DC controller. It uses two 600 amp IGBT's with liquid cooling. Operated fine into an Advance 9" DC motor. Parts cost over $600 new.
Meanwhile, I've been investigating a Prius generation 1, 2, or 3 inverter conversion to a DC motor controller. I dislike the generation 3 greatly due to its special "open face" many IGBT's used and instead believe the generation 1 and 2 use more common components such as familiar stock capacitors and active components.
I hope to make the 25 mile trip to the local Pick and Pull junkyard and purchase a Prius inverter for their stated $60. Prius cars are VERY popular in California; they're everywhere and the local junk yard has 3 generation 1's and a dozen generation 2's.
I have absolutely no question I can convert the Prius AC Inverter into a DC Controller.
Stay tuned. I do this for enjoyment and the learning experience. But I may be sorta' slow.
Picture of 650 amp controller enclosed.
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Any more progress on the work you were doing?
I'm still messing around with the 650 amp controller. It operates well but the DC-DC converter, which powers the PWM circuit board, emits energy in the Megahertz region like an AM radio station, which messes up the current feedback from the current sensor. Ordered a different DC-DC from Mouser this evening.
Working on the controller in the picture below helps me gain an insight into the Prius Inverter. I have not taken a boat trip to the mud lake at the local Pick 'n Pull yet, but they have lots of gen 1,2, and 3 Prius cars on hand. I have done a lot of self education on the Prius inverter on-line and learned a lot.
The gen 1 inverter is constructed much like a home brewer like myself would make a controller. It uses parts with manufacturers part numbers marked on each part. The IGBT modules are most unlike "normal" units at all. They are a IPM, or Intellegent Power Module, I believe, which packages all 6 or 12 IGBT's in one case. Besides the 6 or 12 IGBT'S, there is a circuit board inside each modules case which has the gate drive, overcurrent alarm, over voltage alarm, temp sensors and temperature over-
temperature alarm and more. So each module has dozen of small wires leaving each module going to the circuit board mounted above. Highly unconventional, but very popular in automobile use.
This makes it hard for a regular person to figure out, especially without any documentation. I believe the gen 1 may use 600 volt IGBT's since it has just a 270 or whatever volt pack. Six-hundred volt IGBT's are desired for a DC motor controller, due it their lower Vce drop. The generation 1 also has many more individual components than the later Prius inverters, again making the gen 1 easier to figure out.
I don't really care for the gen 2 inverter. This uses the step up booster to raise the 200 volt pack up to five or six hundred volts. This requires 1200 volt IGBT's, which have a higher "on" voltage drop, This wastes hundreds of watts more power than the previous generation 1 inverter, I'm hoping. The generation 2 has the Toyota part numbers on the components instead of the manufacturer's part number, like the first generation.
I see no usage of the gen 2 buck/boost converter as a battery charger since that concept would not be isolated from the utility line.
I'll eventually get a gen 1 and 2 inverter and mess with them. It will probably be easiest to just gut the IGBT's and circuit board and mount two 600 amp, 600 volt Powerex CM600's, using the Prius buss capacitors and current transformers.
Thanks for the interest.
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The Prius inverter is designed and made by Denso, a very large parts supplier to the industry, who iirc also designed and made the inverter for the Chevy Volt and who are either partly or fully owned by Toyota.
The packaging is extremely advanced in order to reduce HBT cost. I can understand the frustration in trying to reverse engineer their power modules.
MOSFETs have come down in cost so much, it's likely not worth the hassle of extracting that power stage from a Prius vs just buying the transistors. As you've concluded.
And you're astute to point out the DC charger idea is a serious electrocution hazard - thanks for proactively extinguishing that flame of enthusiasm that's in the something-for-nothing, won't-happen-to-me, crowd.
The packaging is extremely advanced in order to reduce HBT cost. I can understand the frustration in trying to reverse engineer their power modules.
MOSFETs have come down in cost so much, it's likely not worth the hassle of extracting that power stage from a Prius vs just buying the transistors. As you've concluded.
And you're astute to point out the DC charger idea is a serious electrocution hazard - thanks for proactively extinguishing that flame of enthusiasm that's in the something-for-nothing, won't-happen-to-me, crowd.
On this Inverter you have pictured. Do you have a schematic? Is it Microprocessor based ?
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No software. That's a controller, not an inverter, Like the Curtis 1231, Solitron, Zilla. Takes DC in gives out DC to the motor using PWM. Sort of like a light dimmer. IGBT's are switches that go on and off 8000 times a second and vary the on-to-off time or motor speed depending on accelerator position. Add in motor current limiting to protect the IGBT transistors and you're set to go.
Being the old fart that I am, I started in a career in electronics in the 70's, when it was analog. Digital was a 4011 CMOS NAND gate. Started building controllers for EV's in the early 80's using Darlington transistors. By the late 90's IGBT's came out and I switched over to the easy to drive IGBT's which could be switched at faster speed.
Like my stock 1938 Chevy pick up, my controller design is old school. I use the old Silicon General SG3524 or SG3525 PWM chip available in through-hole style. I like Powerex/Mitsusibishi 600 amp IGBT CM600-DY-12NF, which are available on eBay for $75. Blend in two of these for a 650 amp controller, a little 2 x 2 inch circuit board with the above chip, a Tamura current sensor, a bunch of aluminum and copper with large amounts of Wakefield thermal compound, and you have a 650 amp controller. Serve with batteries and motor.
And no t5kl;90yuyhing software. Not on my watch.
Oh thats Awsome. So you are using the 2X600 amp IGBTs?? Do you have a schematic for the gate drive for these IGBTs??
Or better yet just a good schematic for the whole thing. I would also like to see how you are doing the current limit as well.
thanks
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Wut? No Class A amp?
PWM is "digital", lol.
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^Bob had his name on the current source we studied in "analog" class in school.
PWM is "digital", lol.
^Bob had his name on the current source we studied in "analog" class in school.
Well, their isn't much to my little PWM driver board. An IC, some resistors, capacitors, and a gate driver. Compare to three phase Prius inverter board for the generation 1 to drive the IGBT's to produce Pure Sine Wave 3 phase AC.
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I have a Gen 1 prius inverter too, sitting around "just in case". Maybe sometime I'll revisit it.
You have a little PWM circuit, but you presumably still need some gate drivers in the middle power stage, no?
You have a little PWM circuit, but you presumably still need some gate drivers in the middle power stage, no?
The gate driver is on the circuit board. It's a 12 amp rated TO220 mount, part MIC4451ZT. Its output and common twisted pair wires go to the two IGBT gates. Each gate has a 10 ohm gate resistor to turn off the gate and another 10 ohm gate resistor with a fast recovery diode in parallel to turn on the gate. That equals 10 ohm turn off and 5 ohm turn on. The lower resistance ON resistor gets the IGBT turned on in a microsecond and the higher resistance OFF resistor minimizes the voltage spike across the IGBT when turning off.
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"IPM" - pay attention, Matt
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Let me ask... What voltage does it take to fully turn on you IGBT? Also to turn the IGBT off doesn't gate voltage have to go below 0V in order for it to turn off?
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Look at the datasheet, dude
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