[mechman600]

At the very least, GM is heading in the right direction with the Volt. Sure, it may not have a 100 mile range like the Leaf, but for 80% of commuters, 40 miles is plenty. And the lack of range anxiety may be enough to sway the "non EV types" to go for it. But, the one big complaint about the Volt (especially on this forum) that I am getting sick of hearing is the fact that it's really not an EV, but a hybrid, just because the engine can physically drive the wheels. Oh no..what were they thinking? Answer: they were thinking about efficiency. When the batteries are depleted and you are relying on an ICE to do the work, it is usually more efficient to mechanically drive the wheels instead of charging the batteries to power a motor to drive the wheels, especially at higher speeds. When are people going to realize this? It must be a severe case of hybrid-phobia or something. Sure, they could have made a pure EV, but I believe that North America needs a stepping stone first. Maybe they will release a BEV soon enough.

 

[gottdi]

The Prius costs less then the Leaf and the Prius is a Hybrid. The Volt is a Hybrid and more expensive than the Leaf. Hows that going to work. I'd rather just go get a Prius if I wanted a hybrid because it is a proven model. I't's not that its Hybrid Phobia but the fact that they have been calling it an ALL electric DRIVE when in fact it is not. They don't have a very good track record and they DO lie. There has been no advertising of the Volt while the Leaf has been advertising and there is not any place where I can actually go drive one unless I know someone on the inside that happens to have on in their possession and hope they don't get caught allowing someone to test drive with out permission. The Volt is about as real is a donkey on a ski. The Leaf on the other hand is moving forward and allowing test drives and all that sort of stuff. It is real and pretty darn nice too.

Gotta have a stone to step on if you intend to be a stepping stone. Leaf is the first stone this time around. GM took their stone away years ago, remember!

 

[major]

......but the fact that they have been calling it an ALL electric DRIVE when in fact it is not.

Hi gottdi,

I have been following the Volt development and never heard anyone of authority connected with the project claim this. What they have said and is fact is that the Volt can be driven "ALL electric" for a certain distance before switching to a gasoline assisted drive (read hybrid).

And this fellow seemed to like the volt. http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51552 You have your opinion. If you don't like it, don't buy one. I happen to like it, although I probably will never buy one, unless they bring out a pick-up truck version.

major

 

[gottdi]

More like gasoline assisted Range Extender. Nothing was stated either in the beginning about the engine actually being coupled to the drive component. Only that it was an electric car with a gas range extender. When all along its just a different implementation of a Hybrid style car. I am not overly impressed with the rollout and advertising, nor am I impressed with what it can actually do. It looks good. That is about the extent of the matter. If it were more in line price wise with an upper end Prius I'd be very serious about the Volt. As it is I am not.

The biggest problem is that they have not been clear about any of it. More of a PR stunt to me from the history they have.

Pete

 

[major]

The biggest problem is that they have not been clear about any of it.

I don't know, Pete, who you have been listening to. They said it would run on batteries only for a distance (I heard like 40 miles----depending) and then switch to gasoline/electric. Which is what they brought out, isn't it? What is unclear? Why is it a problem? Beats me

The hybrid architecture and details of the system were decided by their design team and presumably chosen to best accomplish their objectives. At least they are selling these vehicles instead of leasing them as they did with the EV1. So one would presume they have a greater degree of confidence that this technology is here to stay. I think it is a step in the right direction. Like I said before:

The Volt will make a Potential Difference.

major

 

[gottdi]

With in the past 4 months I will agree with you. However during the past year and a half or so it has really only been speculation about the drive line but on the PR posts and stuff you see all the time about what ever it has been stated that it was an all electric drive with a backup generator providing power to the motor and batteries so you have in effect a set up like the diesel electric trains. Generator power to power the more efficient electric drive motor rather than the gas engine running the whole setup. It was what was to intriguing about the whole Volt thing. Something new and revolutionary to blow the masses away. Well it's far from that. Once the cat was out of the bag I just went holy crap and basically just ditched the Volt as a prospective vehicle. Really. I was sorely disappointed.

Did you have inside information that said from the beginning that the Volt was going to be a dual drive Hybrid and not an all electric drive? It has been stated in posts all over the internet that the car was being hailed as an electric car with gas range extender. Not an Electric/Gas drive with an on board generator for charging the batteries.

I'd love to see a post or original posting from GM when it was announce that the Volt was truly an Electric/Gas Drive with a generator on board. They did not announce until recently that the drive component was in fact an Electric/Gas. Just a different version of a Prius.

Pete

 

[gottdi]

Actually they are not really selling them but the Dealers will be at inflated prices. The Leaf on the other hand will not be sold at inflated prices from what the manufacturer intended. Kudos for the Leaf and only if you know someone on the inside will you even have a slightest chance to get a Volt at an already inflated price. Thank you much I will stick with the Leaf or Prius of for that matter the Ford Focus Hybrid.

 

[JRP3]

The problem is they have purposly muddied the waters by calling it an EV. It's not an EV, it's a hybrid. They even tried to create the new REEV moniker, Range Extended Electric Vehicle, which is simply a PHEV. PHEV's are great, but they aren't EV's. As Jack Richard says, if I have to put gas in it it's not an EV.

 

[gottdi]

Why is it a problem? Beats me

Well it's not a super problem. It is that every one is in the mindset that it was to be an all electric drive with gas generator assist for those long distances. I fully understand building into the system a way to drive in Gas ONLY mode but when you expect one thing and get another it can be problematic for the company. I think the car if it actually does get sold will do OK just like the Ford Focus or Prius but the price will really have to come down for that to happen. Really. I just wanted to see a full electric drive with gas/generator range extender. But in reality it is not that but just another Prius. Is there in fact two electric motors on board? One Drive and one Generator? And maybe the gas engine will in an emergency or super steep grade couple in to boost the electric drive? I really see no reason to do that unless the electric drive motor is not very powerful. My take is that the electric has more torque and power for things like acceleration and hills. So why would you need an assist boost from a less efficient gas engine. I was (really ) under the impression that it was truly an all electric drive with that tiny gas generator for extra electrical boost when needed and to extend the range when the initial battery pack became low enough so you'd need that extra battery juice and power for the elecric drive. I am sure like the prius that the battery will not be allowed to go under a specific voltage before the generator turned on.

Anyway Perception is a big thing and if it is let down at all it will hurt the manufacturer. For what it is it is way over priced. Will it work, sure. Can you drive in electric only, yes. It might just work but I think the all electric is going to take the lead. The size of the Leaf battery pack is really tiny and could be installed onto an accessory trailer to give a range extension and double the mileage or more. Granted a lithium pack is expensive but then again so is the Volt. We all know the expense of the Electric vehicles.

Pete

I think I will stop my ranting. I take my stand with the Leaf and you the Volt. May they both succeed.

 

[major]

It's not an EV, it's a hybrid.

You guys seem to have formed misconceptions about the vehicle from information which I think was not coming from GM. They from the very beginning called it an Extended Range Electric Vehicle, EREV. And that it is. If you never drive it over 30 or 40 miles inbetween charges, it is an EV running on batteries only. It gets full performance in the EV mode. Never having to start the engine to climb a hill, go fast or run the air conditioner. There is one exception as explained in an earlier post, that the engine needs to run a half tank of gas every 6 months to keep the fuel from going stale. Is that too much to ask? If you have bought the Volt, presumably you have wanted the extended range feature and won't mind using 10 gallons of gas a year to have the feature.

As to how the gasoline engine extends the range, what better method is there than what they appear to have chosen? If you need to travel 400 miles on the interstate highway at 75 miles per hour, don't you think that a direct mechanical connection between the engine and the wheels will be more efficient than a series hybrid with the extra two energy conversions?

Again, I have watched this from the beginning, read about it in Automotive Engineering Magazine and attended an SAE conference last year where several engineering managers from the Volt program spoke and fielded questions. They never called it an EV or HEV or PHEV.......Always an EREV.

major

 

[JRP3]

They never called it an EV or HEV or PHEV.......Always an EREV.

major

First, the background. From the moment General Motors unveiled the Chevrolet Volt concept at the Detroit auto show three years ago, it has insisted the Volt is an EV.

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/10/the-chevrolet-volt-isnt-a-true-ev/

We at Automotive News have persisted in calling the Volt a "plug-in hybrid." Our authority has been SAE's definition of a hybrid as a vehicle with two propulsion power sources. Interestingly, GM first referred to the Volt as a "series hybrid." That's one in which the internal combustion engine feeds power to the electric system, as opposed to a "parallel hybrid," in which the two systems run the wheels.

But GM dropped "series hybrid"... and came up with a new pitch: The Volt is an EV because the gasoline engine doesn't drive the wheels.

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/10/28/automotive-news-volts-benefits-outweigh-ev-purity-do-you-ag/
GM has marketed the Volt as an EV, a REEV, and an EREV. It's actually a PHEV, plain and simple, no need for a new misleading acronym, and no reason to call it an EV. It's a hybrid. Since most if it's range is actually driven from the ICE you could call it an Assisted ICE vehicle, or AICE

 

[major]

Since most if it's range is actually driven from the ICE you could call it an Assisted ICE vehicle, or AICE

From your first link:

“For the first 25 to 50 miles of driving, the Volt is a full-performance electric vehicle from zero to 100 mph,” Peterson said.

And Peterson is a GM guy. All the rest of that is reporter talk.

So what? It is what it is. And GM has always called it an EREV from everything I heard. Again so what? A rose is a rose......

major

 

[JRoque]

Hi. This is the best explanation I've seen on how it works:
http://gm-volt.com/2010/10/12/chevrolet-volt-electric-drive-propulsion-system-unveiled/

One of the reasons for my interest in EV is the reduced mechanical complexity vs ICE. The Volt has all the complexity - and risk of failure - of an ICE plus an electric drive system, a separate hybrid motor/generator and a clutch system from hell. Count me out and far away from the Volt.

JR

 

[JRP3]

From your first link:

“For the first 25 to 50 miles of driving, the Volt is a full-performance electric vehicle from zero to 100 mph,” Peterson said.

And Peterson is a GM guy. All the rest of that is reporter talk.

So what? It is what it is. And GM has always called it an EREV from everything I heard. Again so what? A rose is a rose......

major

The Prius can drive electric only for a short time as well, but it's not an electric vehicle. As mentioned, the complexity of a hybrid is quite different from that of a pure EV. GM has played fast and loose with terminology from the beginning, that's what I object to. A fuel cell vehicle has an electric motor and batteries, but you wouldn't call it an EV. A rose is a rose, but don't call a tulip a rose, because it's not.

 

[major]

The Prius can drive electric only for a short time as well, but it's not an electric vehicle. As mentioned, the complexity of a hybrid is quite different from that of a pure EV. GM has played fast and loose with terminology from the beginning, that's what I object to. A fuel cell vehicle has an electric motor and batteries, but you wouldn't call it an EV. A rose is a rose, but don't call a tulip a rose, because it's not.

If the Prius is driving without the engine running it is driving as an EV. And fuel cell vehicles are EVs. Just not BEVs (Battery Electric Vehicles). And to me, FWIW, the Volt has always been an HEV because it can use two sources of energy storage on board. However, it can operate as an EV on the battery alone.

I like the article JRoque posted. It shows how it operates. Cool What's wrong with that. He says it's too complex. About the same as a Prius, or the GM 2-mode hybrids. Big deal. GM validates it and stands behind it. Strange nobody is worried about 10 years on the battery

major

 

[JRP3]

And to me, FWIW, the Volt has always been an HEV because it can use two sources of energy storage on board.

Exactly, a hybrid electric vehicle, emphasis on hybrid. Simply Hybrid vehicle is probably a more accurate term since it's just as much a Hybrid ICE as a Hybrid EV. As I stated, I have no problem with the technology, (though I wouldn't buy one), just the marketing of it. I guess we've just read different articles about it.

 

[major]

Exactly, a hybrid electric vehicle, emphasis on hybrid. Simply Hybrid vehicle is probably a more accurate term since it's just as much a Hybrid ICE as a Hybrid EV. As I stated, I have no problem with the technology, (though I wouldn't buy one), just the marketing of it. I guess we've just read different articles about it.

Yes, we can call the Volt whatever we want. My point was that GM calls it an EREV.

And GM has always called it an EREV from everything I heard.

So Rose, Tulip, Dandelion, whatever

 

[Jason Lattimer]

The main issue I have with the Volt is that it has a really complicated planetary gearset that connects the engine to the drive wheels. I like pure EVs because of their inherent simplicity. I have never liked hybrids just because of the fact that they are way to complicated.

 

[Pirape]

Same with me. I will never purchase an Hybrid because of the combined systems.

I have hard time to keep up with my repairs on my used ICE car

Imagine Hybrids... The garage man saying you need a new drive battery. He tells you that he updated your software in the Controller as well as I they had to replace your gaz lines that were leaking. Oh and the timming belt needs to be changed soon. Even if it's hybrid, both technoligies will age with the vehicules. No matter what, both systems will need maintenance.

Did I say I will never purchase an Hybrid?

 

[IamIan]

Volt is not for me... variety of reasons.

For those who aren't going to plug it in ... they might as well save money and just get a Prius ... they will get better vehicle efficiency.

For those who will plug it in ... it at least has the potential to be better than a straight gasoline car ... and offers something for those with range anxiety ... in a similar way to how the PHEV Prius does.

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Remember the first design shape for the Volt? ... Remember when they put it in a wind tunnel? ... it did horrible ... I am glad they went back and tweaked some things to prove it ... but that first result tells me allot about the intent ... with modern day computer simulations , small scale model testing, etc ... the engineers had to have known from the beginning that the original design was not very aerodynamic ... long before ever making the prototype ... long before anyone in the public saw it ... for GM to have moved it ahead anyway , tells me how little they actually cared about vehicle efficiency ... I'm glad they did go back and improve it ... but that seems to be more because of the bad press reaction there PR Volt project got when the results of the aerodynamic testing got out.

GM is charging $40,280 for the Volt ... while there are nice incentives out there ... that is what GM is charging ... to me when I look at the Volt ... and I look at a $40,000+ price tag ... and the reports I have been reading that several dealers will be raising the price even more ... and I haven't seen GM make any statements to seriously discourage the dealer mark ups ... I look at it ... and I wonder.

Then I see competition ... Nissan has given a very different message to dealerships about the price of the Leaf... which I think is a much more positive indicator about the companies intentions.

For those who want to be gas free ... to replace the pump with the plug ... the Volt is not for you ... it can only reduce ... but forces you to still burn ~10 or more gallons per year as a minimum... and does not enjoy the robustness or simplicity of a pure BEV.

Sense the Leaf is less money ... and has more BEV range ... anyone who intends to plug in regularly ... I recommend honestly asking yourself and determining how often you would actually have any use for the gasoline range extending feature of the Volt? ... there is a break even point ... where if used often enough it becomes worth having ... and if not used often enough it is not worth having... each person has different situations ... but I would recommend and honest look at that first before you put down the extra cash on something you may or may not ever use.

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My last two bits ... The U.S. Government Literally Owns GM ... If you like Communism vote with your dollar ... buy ( Government Motors ) GM vehicles...