DIY Electric Car Forums banner
1 - 20 of 85 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
284 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I will try and keep this index updated, and I welcome any suggestions for things the index should include. Please, feel free to post any Hyper-9 info and questions in this thread!

Hyper-9 Motor Installation, Mounts, Etc
Hyper-9 Wiring
Hyper-9 Programming
Hyper-9 Troubleshooting
Build Threads for Hyper-9 vehicles:
4Foxtrot's Electric Lotus Elan​
Richter12x2's 1955 GMS 100 Series Truck​
McGeesCustomMinis' Custom Mini​
OR-Carl's Chevy S-10​
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
55 Posts
@OR-Carl Thanks SO much for setting this thread up (y) A place for Tips, Tricks, Experiences .. Netgain Hyper9
(I'm still 'Newby' status or have somehow upset the gods, err mods :LOL: ). .. I'm still pretty crap on forum etiquette - if so apologies to OP @OR-Carl if the following experiences are not the correct format 🙏

Hyper9 are amazingly useful motors, controllers and TAU software they are getting to be a 'go-to' by several top line EV conversion companies eg EV West, Electric Classic Cars as on 'Vintage Voltage' TV series, and Zero-EV. I chose it as it works on relatively low voltage ~100 to 130, or upto 170 for the HV version, and it is relatively light ~60Kg.

BUT .. do a google search and there are not many tips, tricks and experiences.
SO .. as this forum is much more permanent, and easy to find stuff than facebook EV groups (and their 'random' newsfeeds :LOL: ) etc.

I hope other Hyper9 users agree and you'll add experiences (good and bad), tips, tricks and general open sharing of knowledge.

kick off, attempt 2:
I chose a Hyper9 because: it was lightish (60kg), and low voltage (125v) .. so would work with 5 Tesla Modules. I needed light as poss and approx 120bhp for a 1969 Lotus 'Elon' to match original weight (achieved with 20kg saving) and power. DC was an option but weight and lack of regen put me off .. the conversion HAD to be super light to be worth doing.
The hyper9 is actually made in china for an Italian Co. (SME), now part of Dana TM4 automotive, Netgain are exclusive resellers and have added a standard end plate, (similar to their DC motors .. with imperial/US threads).

FWIW I discounted other even lighter setup as: a) costs too high: even if can find a light motor eg 20Kg / 150Kw+ b) they needed an expensive controller, and only 'code it yourself' software. c) mostly 400+ Volt systems (OK but need volt or string together own batteries. d) Many leading light and powerful OEM motor companies would not even talk to me as a DIYer (even tho' I design EV's .. OK bikes :) ) . I tried, several axial flux makers, YASA, TM4-MOTIVE, Phi, Emrax, Magnax, Equipmake, Swindon etc. but unless the volume was automotive scale 1000's the door was shut :)

Below was 'work in progress' - motor just fitted, last year, its now a bit tidier :)
122092


Problems:
1. Controller - blew (dead !! - now alive)
With system all off - a cheap chinese main battery voltage gauge shorted and sent a spike to earth, this back tracked and took out both the prius throttle pedal and several controller circuits. I checked wiring (for the nth time) and found there was a problem in the controller. I asked local supplier and Netgain about repairs, and bottom line the shipping investigation and fixes would probably cost as much as a new controller. Also, as its a DIY item unless parts are DOA, there would be no warrantee ;-( . So bit the bullet and bought another as rest of car was just working well (and frankly I was a bit impatient !) .. £2200 lighter and the new one slotted in - fixed .
BUT out of interest (I wish I'd tried this before) - I opened the old controller and found:
TIP: all low voltage connections are protected by tiny surface mount fuses. I know surface mount is a challenge but with a magnifying glass and a solder fuse wire the controller was brought back from the dead !! (now a spare .. or possibly for another project).
122093


2. Wire colours
Maybe I got a bad loom, but I found some colours just did not match the manual - K1-21 was yellow )Not black/blue) and K1-32 was blue not white /green .

TIPS:
1. Calling netgain works better than emails... and Hunter is a gent, and real bundle of knowledge .. I just wish he'd add what he knows to the website/instructions 🙏
2. Use as many soldered joints as possible - more reliable than crimps (or for 'belt and braces' crimp AND solder)
3. Check wiring 3 x !!
4. Controller gets warm without cooling plate but stays cool with plate and even small water flow. Motor stays cooler than batteries when pressing on (now I've added more battery cooling)
5. Get the compact display - it adds easy control of 3 modes of regen (1 more thans a tesla !!)
AND if you set wheel diameter to 85mm, in the TAU software the speed shown is RPM, it can show all sorts of instant temperatures, Volts, amps, etc more accessible than driving with a PC on the seat .. or .. exporting canBUS
6. Beg Hunter for the OEM /dealer version of the SME Tau software .. Warning: you CAN kill yourself/system ... but at the very least it allows you to lower the frequency of the contactor to make it almost silent !!! (and adds many more useful options). I cant post the software, but HERE are the help files which show capabilities.
Some screen shots:
122094


Discussion / Questions / Requests
1. Voltage sag
Working with low voltage system eg 125v vs usual 400v There can be A LOT of voltage sag under full power ... as recorded on an early test drive below shows:

121870


This means that although the full 800/850 Amps can be pulled, the voltage drops at ~70% SOC from ~118v to ~95v
So giving only 800a x 95v = 76kW, but without voltage sag, say at 125v / (~ 95% SOC) this would be up to 800a x 125v = 100Kw (130 BHP).
Future experiment ... use a higher pack voltage, say 144v (on the low voltage Hyper9) but only charge to say 90% SOC (ie just under max ~132V) to get the full 100Kw more easily.
Thoughts ??
(The HV motor and controller has same max KW output but at a lower current , and more battery weight)

Below from netgain show that IF the voltage can be prevented from sagging and kept at 132v , then the peak output can be as much as 112kW which is pretty damn good !!

122095


2. Help:
Any canBUS gurus who have used Hyper9/ TAU and are willing to share experiences ? ie who can offer a drop in connection to the SME canbus output ? eg to say a bluetooth code reader ?? or other gauges / rpm temps etc. (I cheated and used the existing analogue dials :) )

Sorry to go on but, overall v happy with the Hyper9 AND I'm....

looking forward to hearing other peoples Hyper9 experiences, tips and discussions.
Cheers,
Mark, Dorset, UK
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
284 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Awesome info, Mark, Thanks! I will hopefully get my motor installed this week, and will post any tips or tricks that I come across as well. One question, does the X1 controller (low voltage version) have a precharge terminal on the controller? The X144 does according to the manufacturers specs, but it is not very thoroughly explained in the netgain manual. They dont even label it on the mechanical drawings.

From Netgain manual:

From SME literature:
 

·
Registered
Electric Sprint Kart
Joined
·
66 Posts
This is possibly the most information on the ACX144 I've seen in one place, especially with the software programming end. I ended up picking up a Kelly KLS14401-8080IPS for now, but if that craps out the ACX144 is really the only other choice. Subscribed...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
55 Posts
Awesome info, Mark, Thanks! I will hopefully get my motor installed this week, and will post any tips or tricks that I come across as well. One question, does the X1 controller (low voltage version) have a precharge terminal on the controller?
Hope it goes well 👍
As for pre-charge, No x1 doesn't have that.
Also it's a bit odd: netgain and EV west / ECC don't seem to use a pre-charge resistor at all, and only 1 main contactor. Whereas most conversions use 2 contactors, and 2 precharge resistors. In my limited experience, I find less to go wrong is usually best for reliability so I went with the Netgain / EV west of 1 main HV contactor and no pre-charge resistor.
No problems with this in now 1 year of use.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,263 Posts
Although this motor is known as the NetGain HyPer9, it wasn't designed by NetGain and never made by them. It and the matched controller came from another company, which has since been purchased by Dana and made part of the Dana/TM4 "electrified" division.

The DanaTM4 lineup now includes, in addition to various axles with motors (from Dana/Spicer), complete drive units, and formerly TM4 big motors, three series of relatively low-voltage motors:
  • ASY - induction (asynchronous)
  • SYR - synchronous reluctance
  • SRI - "SRIPM" or synchronous reluctance/internal permanent magnet... including the HyPer9, which is in the SRI 200 range
I suspect that all three of these lines come from the same manufacturer.

DanaTM4 is not interested in sales to individuals and is unlikely to provide support, so NetGain will likely continue to be the distributor, but the ownership change may make other motor models and other inverters available.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
55 Posts
The DanaTM4 lineup now includes, in addition to various axles with motors (from Dana/Spicer), complete drive units, and formerly TM4 big motors, three series of relatively low-voltage motors:
  • ASY - induction (asynchronous)
  • SYR - synchronous reluctance
  • SRI - "SRIPM" or synchronous reluctance/internal permanent magnet... including the HyPer9, which is in the SRI 200 range
I suspect that all three of these lines come from the same manufacturer.

DanaTM4 is not interested in sales to individuals and is unlikely to provide support, so NetGain will likely continue to be the distributor, but the ownership change may make other motor models and other inverters available.
Yes, Dana do some interesting stuff > Electric motors | Dana TM4

The snag is Dana, along with other's in the 50 to 300Kw range, eg yasa, UQM, siemens, Zytek, AC, integral, Phi, Emrax, cascadia, BorgW. Avid etc etc .... are ALL geared to the automotive supply chain, and its quantities (and relationships). This means minimum order quantities of 1000's if not 10,000's or 'development contracts' with OEM's.
So we single vehicle developers don't normally get a look in.

I find this is short sighted as, unlike OEM automotive projects which have to be done in total secrecy (like say the the Dodge 'Circuit EV' aka Lotus Europa EV ) ... our one-off projects could showcase a motors' potential and generate a lot of shareholder PR. Sorry - off topic (Hyper9) Rant over :LOL:

Seriously - if anyone has any insights of how to get access to some of these latest automotive motors, controllers AND software PLEASE share 🙏
 
  • Like
Reactions: hallkbrdz

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,263 Posts
Agreed, it is painful to see companies like BW and Dana swallow up various smaller companies and put OEM only faces on them.
The company which Dana purchased (the one that actually makes the motor called the "HyPer9" here) did not sell directly to consumers, so there is no change.

You can buy an HVH motor (in two different case series) from Cascadia Motion; this motor has always been made by a large corporation (originally Remy, now part of BorgWarner) primarily for OEMs (originally GM). Remy was never a small company, and always built the HVH for OEMs Other companies could offer a distribution channel like this if they wanted, but it's not generally a market segment worth pursuing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
Awesome info, Mark, Thanks! I will hopefully get my motor installed this week, and will post any tips or tricks that I come across as well. One question, does the X1 controller (low voltage version) have a precharge terminal on the controller? The X144 does according to the manufacturers specs, but it is not very thoroughly explained in the netgain manual. They dont even label it on the mechanical drawings.

From Netgain manual:

From SME literature:
Hi Carl,

I am also in the progress of a Hyper9 build and I have the same Question. When I read the manual I was confused that Precharge is directly connected to the high Voltage of the Battery. I always thought this would be over a switched 12V Contactor source.
122114

But looking further in the manual I saw that A1+ from the Main Contactor is connected to the B+ Precharge:
122115

best Regards
Heiko
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
284 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Looking at the picture, though, A1+ is connected to battery positive - so they seem to be having us jump past the main contactor with a fused wire. This would leave high voltage power to the precharge terminal at all times. There is the somewhat cryptic note that for both precharge and B+ that "*This HV circuit should include proper fuses and disconnect switches."

I think what I am going to do is use a small contactor like this one:
That way I can keep HV off the controller unless the car is in the drive state. I have secondary contactors in my battery box, so I am skipping the emergency disconnect switch. I might add one if I ever need someone else to work on the truck for some reason, but if it is just me I dont really see the point. Anyway, here is what I am envisioning. I might touch base with Netgain and see what they have to say about it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
That was also my idea. Having a small contactor with key switch signal. But the question remains: why did they do it at Netgain or better SME? Hope to see the answer in this thread. I am not comfortable with any high voltage permanently at the controller.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
55 Posts
That was also my idea. Having a small contactor with key switch signal. But the question remains: why did they do it at Netgain or better SME? Hope to see the answer in this thread. I am not comfortable with any high voltage permanently at the controller.
Speaking from the X1 POV (not X144). My understanding is that the main gigavac contactor (supplied with the Hyper9 kit) is only activated once the controller has booted up and all controller systems are 'green'. There is a 5-10A fused high voltage supply K1-24 iirc switched by a relay ('Key Switch HV relay' below), on 'Key On' . This doesn't scare me and it is fused.
PLUS a benefit of hyper 9 is the voltage is relatively low ~120-144v vs most 400v AC systems.

EV wests generic diagram:
122147
 
  • Like
Reactions: hallkbrdz

·
Registered
Joined
·
55 Posts
This is a graph to compare the Hyper9 with the Lotus Twincam engine it replaced. It shows both power and torque :)

It also shows the effect of Battery voltage SOC and SAG on power. This is Significant !!
.. hence I'm thinking for next conversion of using a higher voltage battery pack with a 90% SOC at the max voltage allowed (132v +margin) + don't charge over 90% (good for pack) and program the controller not to regen above this voltage (I love the way the Tau software allows adjustment of controller settings, with a user interface too .. who actually likes lines of code ? :) ).
122148
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
165 Posts
I do find it iteresting that these controllers have contactor control on them at all. I really see the contactor as a BMS controlled function.
The included contactor is designed to just power on the inverter and motor. It's a 24v/48v contactor so it can't be closed by the 12v used as auxiliary power for most conversions. Another contactor, this one 12v, controlled by the user or the BMS leading to the B+ terminal is the way to go. This is what I'll be doing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
284 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Hey, so I am finally getting to the point where I can start wiring up my X144. I am keeping my transmission, so I am not quite sure what the best approach is to wiring k1-5 Forward and k1-6 Reverse. Does it make sense to just connect it permanently in forward, and ignore the reverse wire entirely? Also, did any of you use the interlock k1-4? If I understand correctly, this is a switch that when opened prevents the car from driving? I feel like my charger had some sort of lock-out functionality so you didnt drive away with it still plugged into the wall, but I am not sure if I am going to go to the hassle of working that out right off the bat. I would appreciate hearing from you guys who have gotten one of these up and running. Thanks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
Awesome thread!
Mark, we are doing a similar build on Porsche 912. (5) Tesla Batteries, EV West Hyper 9 Kit, AC1X controller, Dilithium BMS. Getting a a blocking fault on starting up the controller - "Driver Out 2 Open".. Driver Out 1 controls the 48V contactor, but Driver Out 2/3/4 don't do anything in our setup. Earlier versions of the Hyper9 schematic show these pins connected to similar loads (e.g Emer Brake), but latest kit doesn't even have these pins (K-27/28/29) in the 35-pin Ampseal connector. Any help greatly appreciated! -Ryan
122161
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
165 Posts
Hey, so I am finally getting to the point where I can start wiring up my X144. I am keeping my transmission, so I am not quite sure what the best approach is to wiring k1-5 Forward and k1-6 Reverse. Does it make sense to just connect it permanently in forward, and ignore the reverse wire entirely? Also, did any of you use the interlock k1-4? If I understand correctly, this is a switch that when opened prevents the car from driving? I feel like my charger had some sort of lock-out functionality so you didnt drive away with it still plugged into the wall, but I am not sure if I am going to go to the hassle of working that out right off the bat. I would appreciate hearing from you guys who have gotten one of these up and running. Thanks!
Just a thought, don't do anything permanent yet unless you're sure which way the driven transmission shaft is designed to spin. Forward for the motor could be the opposite of the direction that the crankshaft spun.

Transmissions aren't designed to be spun in the opposite direction. That doesn't mean that it's necessarily an issue, but it could be, so I'll be leaving mine in forward and just using the reverse gear. The gear ratio for the reverse gear is typically a bit higher than 1st gear as well.
 
1 - 20 of 85 Posts
Top