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Nice solution. I was frustrated that the Orion and the ACX1 cannot communicate CCL and DCL between them over CAN. I kept pestering Netgain and Ewert about it but I gave up - maybe there will be a firmware upate at some point to enable it.
Happy to read that I'm not the only looking for this, it's quite crucial if we want a power decrease instead of an exceeding of the limits & the BMS shutting down the all system ! The only solution is to have a microcontroller between both taking the information on Can from the BMS & sending it analogically to the controller.
 

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Greetings! New user here. Signed up because my Hyper9HV is on its way to me, and will soon be going in a Pinto. Wanted to add to the discussion about the precharge circuit on the X144 controller. It seems as if Netgain has added a little bit to the HV manual showing a relay in the precharge area. I also found this updated photo of the X144 showing the precharge connection and what I presume to be the resistor. Anybody wired one up yet?
 

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Greetings! New user here. Signed up because my Hyper9HV is on its way to me, and will soon be going in a Pinto. Wanted to add to the discussion about the precharge circuit on the X144 controller. It seems as if Netgain has added a little bit to the HV manual showing a relay in the precharge area. I also found this updated photo of the X144 showing the precharge connection and what I presume to be the resistor. Anybody wired one up yet?
Ok, now that is quite different.
Any word from Netgain about if this only applies to a new model X144 or if they now recommend something different for older units?
 

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Ok, got this response today, and pretty sure it only applies to the X144:
"The Precharge B+ Terminal can be hard wired to battery pack positive, or switched on via your key switch using the included HV Precharge relay.

Hard wired: Precharge will always see voltage when the high voltage battery pack circuit is closed. This means less cycles of the controller’s internal Precharge circuit. It will also leave a parasitic drain on your battery pack. If you will be certain to open a high voltage maintenance switch while leaving the vehicle unattended for weeks at a time, then this option will work well.

HV Precharge Relay: This will Precharge your controller upon startup every time. It will eliminate a parasitic drain on your High Voltage pack. The key switch must have an On position that energizes the HV Precharge Relay coil before the key is turned to the Start position, which will close 12V+ to K1-24."
 

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Hi Guys,

I have a basic question that I can not seem to find an answer for, probably me not being able to google properly😋. What is the difference between the Hyper9 and the Hyper9HV. I mean practical difference. I understand different voltages and controllers etc. Is the advantage of the HV the fact that it is a lower amp motor so I do not need as high discharge from my batteries? I've looked at the specs and the charts but still not sure exactly what the driving factor in choice between them is. I am in the planning stage right now, I like the hyper 9 and will use one but its whether or not I go for the hyper 9 or hyper9 HV, then I can plan my battery pack accordingly. Thanks for any help.
 

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What is the difference between the Hyper9 and the Hyper9HV. I mean practical difference. I understand different voltages and controllers etc.
They are made of exactly the same parts, except that the HV has more turns of finer wire in the stator winding. That means it can make the same torque with less current, but requires more voltage... and that's the practical difference.

Try this: load the HyPer 9 performance chart and the HyPer 9HV performance chart in their own tabs of your web browser, and click back and forth between them... you should be able to see that the shape of the curves and the power used and produced at any speed are the same; the only difference is that the HV version takes more DC link voltage (144 V vs 108 V from the battery to the controller) to do the same thing. That higher voltage means less current - NetGain doesn't show the DC link current, but if at the same speed and torque output they're using about the same power, then higher voltage means less current.

The NetGain performance charts show motor current and voltage, which are not battery current and voltage. Since the controller is a voltage converter (the output voltage is the same as or less voltage than the input, and the output current is proportionally the same as or more current than the input), you can't directly compare battery current from this data - you would need to calculate it.

Is the advantage of the HV the fact that it is a lower amp motor so I do not need as high discharge from my batteries?
Absolutely not. The discharge current from the battery is the power you are using divided by the battery voltage. The power you are using is determined how fast you are going and how hard you are accelerating or climbing; it doesn't depend on you choice of motor windings. Yes, the HV motor uses less current (and more voltage), but that doesn't change what the battery needs to supply for any given amount of motor power output.

If two otherwise identical EVs are being driven exactly the same way, but one has a HyPer 9 and the other has a HyPer 9 HV, they'll be using the same current from the battery. The current through the motor will be different, as the controller will be converting the power to a different voltage. To get full performance from the motor, the one with the HV motor will need a higher-voltage battery.

I've looked at the specs and the charts but still not sure exactly what the driving factor in choice between them is. I am in the planning stage right now, I like the hyper 9 and will use one but its whether or not I go for the hyper 9 or hyper9 HV, then I can plan my battery pack accordingly.
Often motor voltage is related to different speed capability of the motor, but not in this case, at least the way the controller is programmed.

Yes, the battery is the difference. For instance, if you have chosen a 100 Ah cell with a nominal voltage of 3.75 V and determined that 90 of them would provide enough energy (34 kWh) and be able to deliver enough power, you might configure those 90 cells as 30S 3P (113 V and 300 Ah nominal) for the regular HyPer 9 versus 45S 2P (169 V and 200 Ah nominal) for the HyPer 9 HV. You could even use the higher-voltage battery configuration for both motors, but you couldn't use the lower-voltage configuration for the HV and get full power from it.

I think in more practical terms current builders are trying to make salvaged battery modules work, and would want to choose a motor to suit a workable combination of modules but the principles are the same.
 

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Hey team. I apologize if this isn't wholly relevant to the Hyper 9 motor but I believe that it mostly is.

I've had Tesla batteries sitting in my garage waiting to be charged/balanced for 4 months now and it's time I get a move on.

Probably one of the lesser qualified people in this thread but alas, here I am attempting to put together my schematic. I just wanted to get some other more qualified eyes on it before I nail everything down.

This is obviously missing the motor, controller, throttle, charge controller, and j1772 wiring, but for the main system, this is what I've been planning. Does this seem about right? You can tell it's mostly based on the EVWest schematic.

Some basic key questions I've got are:

1. What was/is the best order of operations as far as wiring goes?

My plan has been to attack the individual battery boxes with their fuses, bms connections, and coolant lines first. Then move onto the contactor box w/o connecting high voltage, hooking up all the charger connections, DC/DC Converter, 12V system, and contactors. Then connect the motor and controller, and finally the HV system.

2. Contactors for each battery box or fuses and just one contactor?

I've seen people go back and forth on this. My plan is just to have the motor contactor, a 12V contactor and then fuses between each battery box.

3. Where should I worry about emi?

In your experience has this been an issue? Where and for what things do you use shielded cables? Is leaving the 12V fuse block and BMS in the contactor box a bad idea? Should they be housed separately?


123467


Any added tips/pointers are greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance!
 

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Yes, low voltage before high voltage is a good plan. Best to leave the connections for the motor and inverter for last. Your plan sounds all good. Not necessary to use a contactor for each battery box. Just a fuse is sufficient. There is also a big shortage of contactors at the moment (3 months backordered) so even if you wanted one, you would have to forego them at least for now.

EMI is not a big issue with DC and as such there shouldn't be any issue with having a BMS next to a DC contactor and busbar. The 3 AC phases from motor to inverter are the biggest sources of EMI. Shielded wiring may be necessary for those cable runs.
 

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Does anyone know how to set a maximum current that the ACX1 controller can draw from the pack? My pack is fused at 600A, and I want to make sure that cannot be exceeded.

There is a 'motor limit current map' in the SME software, might this be it?

Thanks in advance ...
 

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According to this graph its about 850Amps, @ 120v but not sure what's settable in TAU, I have not looked recently. This graph was created using some kind of 'Magic Battery' :LOL: - here in the real world, although the 5 x Tesla MX modules can deliver 1200+amps, at that current the voltage is pulled down, so getting the 100kW is probably theoretical (mind you, there may be a case for super capacitors to help with a burst of amps without volt sag ?? ) Anyone tried ? Brian ?

Also I find the Torque drop off above 4500 rpm quite noticeable in the real world - I'm pleased I kept a gear box.

I chose the 120v hyper9 because I had the high discharge Tesla modules. The 140v Hyper9HV is a good choice where battery amps cant go over 500. The overall output of the 2 type of motor is the same.

Rectangle Slope Font Line Plot
 

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According to this graph its about 850Amps, @ 120v
...
This graph was created using some kind of 'Magic Battery' :LOL: - here in the real world, although the 5 x Tesla MX modules can deliver 1200+amps, at that current the voltage is pulled down, so getting the 100kW is probably theoretical (mind you, there may be a case for super capacitors to help with a burst of amps without volt sag ?? ) Anyone tried ? Brian ?
...

View attachment 123841
Why do you say that the battery must be "magic"? At no point in this test range does the DC supply exceed 110 kW, which any reasonable production EV battery can deliver. Presumably anyone wanting to operate a motor at 110 kW would size the battery for this.

Since the DC supply voltage is 120 V that 110 kW is 915 A (in the DC link, not ARMS through the motor). If using readily available salvaged EV battery modules, they would be configured with enough in series for 120 V (after accounting for sag) and enough in parallel for a thousand amps. Using Tesla Model S/X modules that's six modules in series (with lots of voltage headroom), and two strings in parallel would meet the current requirement; that's 110 kW from 12 modules, or the size of the entire battery pack of the pre-86 kWh Tesla models... which clearly have no difficulty delivering only 110 kW. Even Leaf modules could do that, if configured as 16S3P instead of 48S (so 16S12P cells instead of the stock 96S2P cells); it's not much past the stock rating of 80 kW for even the earliest 24 kWh Leaf pack.

Voltage sag in a battery which is properly sized for this purpose (which is certainly not just 5 Tesla Model S/X modules in series) won't be a problem. Sag will likely be significant in a battery configured for a practical conversion, but it would make no sense to test a motor with a DC supply which can't maintain a reasonably constant voltage through the test.
 

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Yep i did wonder about adding a 6th 25kg module which would only exceed the Hyper9 X1 upper voltage limit when over ~95 SOC. Although TAU would then restrict regen until SOC is well down. And of course we could all pile on another 5 or more modules at 125Kg :) and enter the cycle of more weight>more power>more weight etc etc which today ends up with huge 2.5 ton electric SUV's with 'properly sized batteries' - not my idea for a fun, efficient, sustainable future :cool:

Low weight in this car is the No.1 aim - as Colin Chapman's philosophy says "added lightness not only helps on the straights but also around the corners" .. to which I'll add it also gives the amazing efficiency (as good as 7.5miles / kWh).

Looks like we should accept voltage sag of real world 'Physics' iirc aka I2R :) .... .. or ... go BIG and heavy.
It also looks like the size of capacitor needed to smooth these voltage sags is big and very expensive.
 

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1. What was/is the best order of operations as far as wiring goes?

My plan has been to attack the individual battery boxes with their fuses, bms connections, and coolant lines first. Then move onto the contactor box w/o connecting high voltage, hooking up all the charger connections, DC/DC Converter, 12V system, and contactors. Then connect the motor and controller, and finally the HV system.

2. Contactors for each battery box or fuses and just one contactor?

I've seen people go back and forth on this. My plan is just to have the motor contactor, a 12V contactor and then fuses between each battery box.

3. Where should I worry about emi?

In your experience has this been an issue? Where and for what things do you use shielded cables? Is leaving the 12V fuse block and BMS in the contactor box a bad idea? Should they be housed separately?
Looks good to me, and snap 5 tesla modules on a AX1 - a sweet spot for weight/power/efficiency. I used 2 packs of 2 and 3 modules and only 1 fuse. I figured that all in series and fewer bits to go wrong [my 1st conversion, a smart car had too many 'safety devices' which added other 'in use' risks - think: bumpy rail crossing, wife driving, with kid on board .. luckily although wife freaked, kid knew that a quick reset fixes most electrical errors :) )

1. Yep same order
2. As above I used 1, as per the much copied EV west wiring diagram - 100% reliable in getting on for 2 years daily use
3. No - I found less interference than from previous ICE set up ! [not an issue]

All I'd add (from bitter experience with earlier conversions)
1. Check every wire / connection 3 times before its used
2. Minimise connections: plugs, sockets - sacrifice convenience of quick releases for reliability.
(ditto fuses etc - but this is a personal choice as above !!)
3. Especially for LV control wires (and in my case, HV too) back up crimped connections with solder and make sure never near water.
4. Be super careful with any part that is on both HV and LV circuits (eg DC-DC, controller, gauges etc) Dont be tempted by cheap components, gauges etc especially ANY that see both HV and LV.
5. Make sure every wire and connection wont get worn with use and vibrations - plenty of sheathing. Fuses are a 2ndary barrier to shorts and this kind of failure - but ideally fix it at source.

Otherwise enjoy that 1st time spool up on new (0-5v) throttle (y) its magic
 

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The Tau software has a Motor Current Limit Map, example attached. It shows that 100% of the maximum current can be drawn for any motor speed (the red line), whereas the green line shows the percentage of maximum current that the controller can supply to the pack under regen.

The units imply that 750 A RMS is the maximum current that can be drawn (I’m using the low voltage Hyper 9 system).

I am assuming that because it refers to A RMS, it’s likely to be referring to AC motor current, not DC pack current.

Netgain’s webpage refers to “750A Peak”, which is not the same as 750 A RMS in the Tau software, and also not the same as the 850 Amps that the performance charts (such as the one from Negain) above shows.

So I am confused … all I want to do is limit the max DC current draw from my pack to 600A. I did try reducing the Drive % limits to about 450A RMS, but the car was undriveable, I could barely get to 20mph. Any help in interpreting these various current units gratefully received ...

Rectangle Slope Font Line Screenshot
 

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Yep i did wonder about adding a 6th 25kg module which would only exceed the Hyper9 X1 upper voltage limit when over ~95 SOC. Although TAU would then restrict regen until SOC is well down. And of course we could all pile on another 5 or more modules at 125Kg :) and enter the cycle of more weight>more power>more weight etc etc which today ends up with huge 2.5 ton electric SUV's with 'properly sized batteries' - not my idea for a fun, efficient, sustainable future :cool:

Low weight in this car is the No.1 aim - as Colin Chapman's philosophy says "added lightness not only helps on the straights but also around the corners" .. to which I'll add it also gives the amazing efficiency (as good as 7.5miles / kWh).

Looks like we should accept voltage sag of real world 'Physics' iirc aka I2R :) .... .. or ... go BIG and heavy.
It also looks like the size of capacitor needed to smooth these voltage sags is big and very expensive.
7.5 miles/kWh is incredible efficiency. You're saying you can get about 175 miles with your 25kWh pack?

I'm doing 10 modules (2 parallel strings of 5 modules in series) and shooting for 150 miles of range, which would be 3 miles/kWh. But my car (a 2010 Ford Escape) will weigh around 3600 lbs and be much less aerodynamic than yours.
 

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Yep i did wonder about adding a 6th 25kg module which would only exceed the Hyper9 X1 upper voltage limit when over ~95 SOC. Although TAU would then restrict regen until SOC is well down. And of course we could all pile on another 5 or more modules at 125Kg :) and enter the cycle of more weight>more power>more weight etc etc which today ends up with huge 2.5 ton electric SUV's with 'properly sized batteries' - not my idea for a fun, efficient, sustainable future :cool:
Right - the car is a very different situation from the test bench.

Of course 2.5 ton electric SUVs have batteries sized for range, not to avoid voltage sag.

Looks like we should accept voltage sag of real world 'Physics' iirc aka I2R :) .... .. or ... go BIG and heavy.
It also looks like the size of capacitor needed to smooth these voltage sags is big and very expensive.
I agree that voltage sag should be expected. Unless the motor supplier wants to provide multiple performance curves at various voltages (as some do, but not NetGain) the effect of reduced voltage won't be apparent in the performance data.
 

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7.5 miles/kWh is incredible efficiency. You're saying you can get about 175 miles with your 25kWh pack?
Or in normal energy consumption terms, 133 Wh/mile (83 Wh/km). That's about half the consumption of production EVs which are more than twice as heavy (so more than twice as much rolling drag) and have about twice as much frontal area (so twice the aero drag for the same coefficient of drag). Of course there's always the problem in comparing range of getting comparable driving conditions. The HyPer 9 has typical efficiency for a modern EV motor; require it to do less work and it will consume less energy.
 

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I'm doing 10 modules (2 parallel strings of 5 modules in series) and shooting for 150 miles of range, which would be 3 miles/kWh. But my car (a 2010 Ford Escape) will weigh around 3600 lbs and be much less aerodynamic than yours.
The Escape and the Elan are probably pretty close in coefficient of drag (around 0.40, or worse for the Elan with the top down), but the Escape will have much more frontal area, and drag force is proportional to both the coefficient and the area (and the density of air).
 

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Still no new regarding the direct CANbus comunication between the SME and Orion BMS ( or other can enabled BMS) i've sent multiple e-mail to Hunter with no answsers.
It appears that netgain released a new OEM version of the SmartView software. (SmartViewGuiInstaller_2BC_2BD_OEM_Rel_1_3.zip) anyone knows what they changed ?
 
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