The IMPOSIBLE DIY Hybrid

3345 Views 56 Replies 18 Participants Last post by joekitch, 2 mo ago

Joe25

Discussion Starter · 2 mo ago

Hi all,
This seems to be an impossible project from the looks of all the forums online, but here I go. I hope to build a custom DIY hybrid and was wondering if anyone had recommendations for communities/forums where I can ask some questions.

Best

21 - 40 of 57 Posts

Electric Land Cruiser

· #21 · 2 mo ago

Joe25 said:
Also, why did you abandon the project?

Just too many projects and too many cars. The pathway is already pretty well proven. Peter Perkins on the crzforum has gotten a couple cars running with almost 60kw of assist using a custom lithium battery. I wanted to take it to the next level and have more than a couple kwh on board with plug-in charging.

lalkelalke04

· #22 · 2 mo ago

I hope to Frankenstein a Prius computer system to control an electric and gas engine. At the moment, this is a concept that I am trying to put together, and I am hoping for some help.

dlud

· #23 · 2 mo ago

For a cool “hybrid” project see:

. A Leaf to which a Kawasaki motorcycle engine has been added!

remy_martian

· #24 · 2 mo ago

remy_martian said:
I give up.

...on repeating myself.

Sorry to disappoint or get some of your hopes' up.

northcoast

· #25 · 2 mo ago

dlud said:
For a cool “hybrid” project see:

. A Leaf to which a Kawasaki motorcycle engine has been added!

There you go... EVs are too quiet for real hot-rodding. Gotta have an engine in there somewhere. My i3 has a motorcycle engine too, but nothing like this one.

remy_martian

· #26 · 2 mo ago

Real hotrodding is building a light, quick (power/weight), car. The side effect of this is it's loud, including the solid lifters, which precludes putting a decent sound system in.

Posing is putting headers and glasspacks on your mother's Dodge Dart and flipping the air cleaner cover over. That's not hotrodding.

Duncan

· #27 · 2 mo ago

northcoast said:
There you go... EVs are too quiet for real hot-rodding. Gotta have an engine in there somewhere. My i3 has a motorcycle engine too, but nothing like this one.

I dunno - I LIKE blowing away the supercharged V8s with my silent car

Reactions: 2

dlud

· #28 · 2 mo ago

I'm all in on pure EV's but something about this Leaf makes me want to take a run at one.

remy_martian

· #29 · 2 mo ago

Did Rich Rebuilds ever say how he got around the EPA notice on his diesel Tesla build? Maybe the offroad-use-only loophole that may get closed up in the near future?

Cats only work when hot, so another of the many software challenges in hybrid control software is emissions management, which also includes the EGR system if it's roadgoing. Newer of engine or car manufacturer date emissions spec last time I looked.

EVKreations

· #30 · 2 mo ago

Joe25 said:
Hi all,
This seems to be an impossible project from the looks of all the forums online, but here I go. I hope to build a custom DIY hybrid and was wondering if anyone had recommendations for communities/forums where I can ask some questions.

Best

Listen to your goals you stated. Car with hybrid. Then long range as well as all terain. Then next you said you want to be able to pull a Motor Home?? Did you mean large enough truck to pull trailer??
The closest you need to get for under $50k would be to buy a GM truck Hybrid so you can tow and off road. Then customize acxessories tonsuit your needs. Theres not enough money to build all parts and get working before California sinks!!

gustavopm57

· #31 · 2 mo ago

remy_martian said:
Improbable, not impossible.

You might be that one person in 100 billion that can code up hybrid control software that it takes 40 people in a major auto OEM to do.

Keep in mind that they have access to every single sensor, actuator, and module's signaling and CAN/LIN specs -- you do not. So you'll need to reverse engineer all of them in addition to converting the ICE to drive by wire throttle, etc.

I suggest you read the threads of many here who had hybrid ambitions. I don't know of anybody who has pulled it off.

You might...but it's improbable.

Remy. I been with a major Tier 1 Auto parts maker at a big design center doing design and business development..... We had class on "invention" and defined among other characteristics an "invention" will posses: A person knowledgeable of the "art", will reasonable tell it will not work, yet it will. Seldom you can look around and not find one of such inventions around. Imagine behhind each of the a SINGLE person saying: "I told you". Is the single guy who starts the game.

gustavopm57

· #32 · 2 mo ago

Joe25 said:
Hi all,
This seems to be an impossible project from the looks of all the forums online, but here I go. I hope to build a custom DIY hybrid and was wondering if anyone had recommendations for communities/forums where I can ask some questions.

Best

I will reccomend to get acquainted with CAN, then recruit help from Chinese suppliers, they go a long way in reverse engineer many things that already are on the shelf for them. But will have to spend the buck in buying the components from these "OEMS". That likeley will share more of the how to vs the occidental ones. All legal, just not usual these side of the oceans.......

remy_martian

· #33 · 2 mo ago

gustavopm57 said:
Remy. I been with a major Tier 1 Auto parts maker at a big design center doing design and business development..... We had class on "invention" and defined among other characteristics an "invention" will posses: A person knowledgeable of the "art", will reasonable tell it will not work, yet it will.

Nice. You should contribute more here, then.

To counter - I have over a dozen US patents and whoever "taught" you was either spewing nonsense or your recollection of the material from the class is flawed.

A person knowledgeable in the art has to be able to replicate the patent, as it was written up, in order for it to be approved by the patent office.

The patent cannot be obvious to be patentable is likely where you are confused. That is very different than the fiction of someone versed in the art having a reasonable opinion a patent won't work...that's the converse to obviousness that seems to extrapolate logically, but that converse logic results in nonsense.

In any case, there is no intellectual property at issue in this thread...at issue was the scope of the project, the knowledge required, the time needed to execute it, the money needed, the knowledge of vehicle dynamics to a PhD level, control theory and loop tuning to a PhD level, and tens of thousands of lines of software and man-years of testing and refinement.

Absolutely nothing to do with patents.

Absolutely does have to do with an idea, which is not a patent or invention. Ideas are a dime a dozen in worth because it's the execution that matters...everybody has ideas, few have the knowledge, experience, funds, time, resources, etc to either kill it or develop it.

Wishes don't make mere ideas real. And reality is usually a kick in the gonads nobody likes to hear or see. The wish bubble pops.

Yes, you can build a car with thumb throttles for the electric motor and foot pedal for the ICE. That's not a hybrid.

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remy_martian

· #34 · 2 mo ago

gustavopm57 said:
I will reccomend to get acquainted with CAN, then recruit help from Chinese suppliers...

Gustavo can get you their phone number.

Tell them you are building ONE backyard hybrid out of a clapped out truck that will pull 2 tons and let us know how many dozen Chinese developers they throw onto your project.

This is a DIY site. One-offs in most cases. Any OEM coming in here for advice or methods is in serious leadership trouble.

Hemibill

· #35 · 2 mo ago

Joe25 said:
DIY Hybrids seem incredibly difficult to accomplish, but I am starting out optimistic. I hope to Frankenstein a Prius computer system to control an electric and gas engine. At the moment, this is a concept that I am trying to put together, and I am hoping for some help.

Maybe I'm underthinking the solution, but for me (a diesel generator mechanic) it seems that trying to "Frankenstein a Prius computer system" should work with any other engine, by it's really not needed. If you use a simpler control system, such as Dynagen or DeepSea, to start the engine and run it up to 1800 RPM (to power the generator), and have the ON/OFF control based on battery state of charge. I'm considering this idea to add a small diesel generator to a Nissan Leaf drivetrain, this extending it's range.

Your idea of pulling an RV and going off-roading would entail upsizing the drive motor(s) as well as the engine/generator sizing, based on total power needed to do these tasks.

(Just thinking out loud...)

remy_martian

· #36 · 2 mo ago (Edited)

That would work, but it would not be legal to operate on the road due to emissions regs unless the diesel was from an emissions certified vehicle and all of its systems are moved over, including DEF.

I had given this kind of ReX (it's not a hybrid the way I look at it...there's no direct powerpath to the wheels, including generator to motor) some thought for my F-450, but the stock market put that conversion on the back burner.

Reactions: 1

stevon

· #37 · 2 mo ago (Edited)

Joe25,

I do not recommend your project for the average guy unless you are Jay Leno with very smart people working for you with unlimited funding and also by the way you're retired with extra time available, I would think it would never get finished. Giant companies like GM have a 100 million dollars or more to spend on an EV project, what do you have budgeted for yours? you can not hope to compete with their or any other auto manufacturer and have anything even close to their finished/tested results, it's just cheaper and more common sense to buy their finished, proven vehicles.

Tire Wheel Vehicle Motor vehicle Automotive tire

I myself have been converting a gas ATV to electric and I don't have all of the specialty skills to even program the off the shelf used 1232 Curtis Controller I bought. I was thinking of converting an Hyundai EV alternator for use as an A/C motor and using the Curtis to control it. Gave up on that project and to save time and money ended up paying some experts (Thunderstruck motors, who do the A/C motor controller programming almost weekly). They ended up selling me a good used ac9 motor and offered to program my Curtis controller to my specification of top speed, ramp up torque and other parameters to use with their motor for $1000 complete. Fitting the motor and drive pullies has taken a year and I still have no battery yet! The wiring and other engineering/fabrication isn't done either. Don't currently have the money/time to finish the electric ATV conversion project at this time. Doing lots of research I see many people having the same idea of a gas to electric conversion, there is lots of information about started projects but almost no pictures or published evidence that they ever completed the conversion successfully! Those that did had access to scientific labs and are Electrical Engineers by profession, also they were spending 100s of hours with a cost of $6 to $10K to finish their EV projects.
Making an electric motor act and perform the same as a gas engine is immensely complicated. In effect you are designing a new electric vehicle from scratch. What you will minimally need to succeed is:

1) Deep pockets
2) an expandible budget
3) Electrical engineering skills
4) fabrication skills
5) fabrication equipment (lathe, welders, drill press, saws, etc.)
6) facilities to store and build the project (garage or building)
7) Time and no conflicting obligations (wife, kids, job, yard work etc.)
8) Good luck

to see the cost with deep commitment and pain of EV project guys I recommend to take a look at a few electric car conversions at

Mark Allen's 2000 HRV Honda Hybrid (evalbum.com)

Luke's Ultra-Efficient Category L7E Hybrid (evalbum.com)

Gilbert's 2007 Toyota Prius (evalbum.com)

EV Photo Album: Our Electric Cars on the Web (evalbum.com)

Stephen

Joe25 said:
Hi all,
This seems to be an impossible project from the looks of all the forums online, but here I go. I hope to build a custom DIY hybrid and was wondering if anyone had recommendations for communities/forums where I can ask some questions.

Best

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Reactions: 1

szac

· #38 · 2 mo ago

dlud said:
For a cool “hybrid” project see:

. A Leaf to which a Kawasaki motorcycle engine has been added!

Was going to drop this link too. The blend knob is the key here. This project is DIY and offsets time investment, an army of engineers, resources, personal expertise with manual controls. A pragmatic design that works for the DIYer who created it and seems to meet his own goals for the project. As a prototype, it also does exactly what it's supposed to: answer questions and create more questions.

Motor vehicle Automotive tire Gadget Audio equipment Automotive lighting

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brian_

· #39 · 2 mo ago

Hemibill said:
Maybe I'm underthinking the solution, but for me (a diesel generator mechanic) it seems that trying to "Frankenstein a Prius computer system" should work with any other engine, by it's really not needed. If you use a simpler control system, such as Dynagen or DeepSea, to start the engine and run it up to 1800 RPM (to power the generator), and have the ON/OFF control based on battery state of charge.

That's a series hybrid, with a relatively large battery to make it work, and it could work. If the battery is too small then the engine cycles too frequently, which reduces efficiency and is an operational problem for any emission control system. To make any sense, the constant engine speed and load need to be selected to be optimal for engine efficiency; otherwise, you might as well just use a simpler and more efficient mechanical transmission. Constant speed is not enough by itself - you need to keep the engine working hard enough but not excessively loaded.

Hemibill said:
Your idea of pulling an RV and going off-roading would entail upsizing the drive motor(s) as well as the engine/generator sizing, based on total power needed to do these tasks.

I agree: the engine and generator need to be sized to keep up with the average power demand over some period, with a battery sized to smooth out that demand for the period. At the very least, generator output would need to meet the demand of the motor keeping the fully-loaded rig moving at the highest required highway speed, since that demand is continuous so no amount of battery would help the engine keep up.

Reactions: 1

brian_

· #40 · 2 mo ago (Edited)

szac said:
... The blend knob is the key here. This project is DIY and offsets time investment, an army of engineers, resources, personal expertise with manual controls. A pragmatic design that works for the DIYer who created it and seems to meet his own goals for the project. As a prototype, it also does exactly what it's supposed to: answer questions and create more questions.

What the "blend knob" approach doesn't do at all is provide efficient operation... which is okay, because that was not a goal of the project. The engine's efficiency is not optimized at all, so it is no more efficient than any other conventional gasoline powertrain.

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