as the main reason i'd have for owning a car is to be able to travel out of town or even state, is a serious hurdle for me to switch from bikes & busses that get me about anywhere i'd need an EV for. even though it's too late because evil oil companies bought the hydrogen cell technology that can be reversed to generate hydrogen with simply water & electricity, i think hydrogen power is the "ultimate solution". all that would be needed is for stations to have windmills or solar tech & a water supply to be able to generate hydrogen on site. range becomes a non-issue as long as there's infrastructure, cost is a non issues as a modern fuel injected car can be converted to burning hydrogen for just a couple thousand dollars and filling up with hydro is much faster than charging. in every way, hydrogen is a superior technology except it still generates heat. people are always going to fight against giving up freedoms they already have. people can just hop in their car and drive cross country on a whim. telling them that they can only go 100 miles doesn't sit well with them. it doesn't work for me either as i'd want a car precisely to travel 100+ miles too. if the infrastructure was built for charging stations less than 100 miles apart including places like texas and the technology for fast charging were developed, then the tech would catch on, but as it stands now... electric cars = imprisonment. electric cars with current technology are totally useless for taxis or delivery, police, & ambulance type vehicles etc. it's an overpriced technology that underdelivers. (pun intended) GO HYDRO!
The Rise of Range Anxiety?
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I think you need to take a closer look at hydrogen.
How much electricity does it take to generate enough hydrogen for a full range car? How does it compare to charging an electric car to drive the same distance? The answer may suprise you and it has nothing to do with an oil company conspiracy. Furthermore, electric charging infrastructure is easier to implement than hydrogen filling stations.
As far as range anxiety is concerned, I can't say its been a factor driving my electric car. Know your limit, drive within it. Its no different than driving within the range of your gas powered car. I'm not giving up any freedoms by driving an EV because I have a fossil fueled vehicle for longer trips. The idea of electric cars is not to force others to drive them, its to give them a choice and let them decide.
How much electricity does it take to generate enough hydrogen for a full range car? How does it compare to charging an electric car to drive the same distance? The answer may suprise you and it has nothing to do with an oil company conspiracy. Furthermore, electric charging infrastructure is easier to implement than hydrogen filling stations.
As far as range anxiety is concerned, I can't say its been a factor driving my electric car. Know your limit, drive within it. Its no different than driving within the range of your gas powered car. I'm not giving up any freedoms by driving an EV because I have a fossil fueled vehicle for longer trips. The idea of electric cars is not to force others to drive them, its to give them a choice and let them decide.
Quote:
As far as range anxiety is concerned, I can't say its been a factor driving my electric car. Know your limit, drive within it. Its no different than driving within the range of your gas powered car. I'm not giving up any freedoms by driving an EV because I have a fossil fueled vehicle for longer trips. The idea of electric cars is not to force others to drive them, its to give them a choice and let them decide.
So say I. You drive it for the convenience with the range it has.
No anxiety what so ever.
As far as range anxiety is concerned, I can't say its been a factor driving my electric car. Know your limit, drive within it. Its no different than driving within the range of your gas powered car. I'm not giving up any freedoms by driving an EV because I have a fossil fueled vehicle for longer trips. The idea of electric cars is not to force others to drive them, its to give them a choice and let them decide.
So say I. You drive it for the convenience with the range it has.
No anxiety what so ever.
Hydrogen is a politically driven scam. It is currently made from fossil fuel, with a byproduct of CO2. Far more CO2 is produced in this process than if the car fueled by hydrogen simply ran on gasoline. The electrolysis method of producing hydrogen requires far more energy than what is usable in the hydrogen. The day that the lofty hydrogen dream finally dies is the day you will hear cheering from most of us in this forum.GO HYDRO!
and the bit of hydrogen made with electricity... its about 10% efficient, batteries are 50-90% efficient. (lead or lithium) so you can already see how much power you're throwing away, and even after that, theres the rather poor efficiency of a piston engine or fuel cell to burn the hydrogen back into power or electricity.
and with the poster above, most hydrogen is made by "stripping" LNG so that the carbon ends up as co2, and some of the hydrogen can be collected. again, throwing away tons of energy that could have just as well (or actually, better) have fueled a car.
and with the poster above, most hydrogen is made by "stripping" LNG so that the carbon ends up as co2, and some of the hydrogen can be collected. again, throwing away tons of energy that could have just as well (or actually, better) have fueled a car.
Zeroemission must be a paid hydrogen supporter, otherwise I'm not sure why he's on this board. All he ever does is try to promote how wonderful hydrogen is, and no one is buying his BS.
Exactly. They take natural gas, which is mostly CH4 (methane), and strip the `H4s` (hydrogen) off to use as fuel. Now the C (carbon) is lonely and naturally clings to the nearest O2 (oxygen) floating around, so now we have a bunch of CO2. Not only does it produce carbon dioxide, but it consumes valuable oxygen.most hydrogen is made by "stripping" LNG so that the carbon ends up as co2, and some of the hydrogen can be collected. again
When I watch the part of Who Killed The Electric Car where it explains the reasons for the `rise of hydrogen` I want to punch holes through the wall. That`s why I don`t like that movie!
I thought they explain near the end of the film that hydrogen is a bit of a red herring. They do explain that it diverted attention away from BEVs, but I don't remember them defending it. Its been a while since I watched it though.
I cannot see why folks are so shortsighted that they fail to see the possibility of a new infrastructure for the electric car economy.
The one thing that electricity can do that no liquid or gas fuel can is refuel the car while it is traveling. The second point is that a nationwide electrical infrastructure is already in place. Electricity can be produced and delivered almost anywhere. Virtually every building, home, and road has some type of electrical infrastructure in place.
So there's really no need for hydrogen, or zinc slurry, or fuel cells, or any other type of infrastructure that is analogous to the current gasoline infrastructure. All that needs to be done is to embed inductive charging stations right into the roads. The electric car drives over them and gets recharged. Electricity producers and charge maintainers are paid by the users of the charging stations.
There's not even a need to completely electrify the roads. Simply start with charging stations on the interstate road infrastructure every twenty miles or so. That would be enough to get the ball rolling. Then as demand increases, then fill in charging stations more densely.
The concept of the 10 minute fill up is vastly overrated.
ga2500ev
The one thing that electricity can do that no liquid or gas fuel can is refuel the car while it is traveling. The second point is that a nationwide electrical infrastructure is already in place. Electricity can be produced and delivered almost anywhere. Virtually every building, home, and road has some type of electrical infrastructure in place.
So there's really no need for hydrogen, or zinc slurry, or fuel cells, or any other type of infrastructure that is analogous to the current gasoline infrastructure. All that needs to be done is to embed inductive charging stations right into the roads. The electric car drives over them and gets recharged. Electricity producers and charge maintainers are paid by the users of the charging stations.
There's not even a need to completely electrify the roads. Simply start with charging stations on the interstate road infrastructure every twenty miles or so. That would be enough to get the ball rolling. Then as demand increases, then fill in charging stations more densely.
The concept of the 10 minute fill up is vastly overrated.
ga2500ev
You are right, they don't defend Hydrogen at all. They explain how the automakers convinced the government that Hydrogen is better, how they dangled the hydrogen dream in front of us and continue to do so, even though the necessary technology is still 30 years away. Just before CARB voted to cancel the EV mandate, its head, Alan Lloyd, got a job in hydrogen research. The hydrogen folks promise long ranges and renewable fuel, even though they still have less range than the EV1 did, and use fuel that is more damaging than the gasoline that I/we are addicted to. THIS is why I hate the movie - because it reminds me of all this stuff and makes me angry!I thought they explain near the end of the film that hydrogen is a bit of a red herring. They do explain that it diverted attention away from BEVs, but I don't remember them defending it.
As one who has fiddled with hydrogen on many vehicles, my homemeade electrolysers worked well, but for the average joe are too much to maintain. 10% -20% is easily achieved but as it is concurrent with the dinosaur's feedbag we need to look further ahead to electric.and the bit of hydrogen made with electricity... its about 10% efficient, batteries are 50-90% efficient. (lead or lithium) so you can already see how much power you're throwing away, and even after that, theres the rather poor efficiency of a piston engine or fuel cell to burn the hydrogen back into power or electricity.
and with the poster above, most hydrogen is made by "stripping" LNG so that the carbon ends up as co2, and some of the hydrogen can be collected. again, throwing away tons of energy that could have just as well (or actually, better) have fueled a car.
OK, now I understand.You are right, they don't defend Hydrogen at all. They explain how the automakers convinced the government that Hydrogen is better, how they dangled the hydrogen dream in front of us and continue to do so, even though the necessary technology is still 30 years away. Just before CARB voted to cancel the EV mandate, its head, Alan Lloyd, got a job in hydrogen research. The hydrogen folks promise long ranges and renewable fuel, even though they still have less range than the EV1 did, and use fuel that is more damaging than the gasoline that I/we are addicted to. THIS is why I hate the movie - because it reminds me of all this stuff and makes me angry!
I've watched it twice. Rented it a few years ago, then saw a good chunk of it again on CBC. Both times I wanted to punch a hole through the walls even though I can't agree 100% with everything about the film.
On the upside, it motivated me to build my own EV.
G
I tell every one that when they sit down to watch the movie they need to move all breakables away because you will not be sitting for long and you will get pissed. 
I give fair warning to all.
I give fair warning to all.
i am NOT a hydrogen power lobbyist thank you very much! my 34 wheeled vehicle is a pair of bicycles. i haven't been behind a steering wheel other than at an arcade maybe since about 1992 or 3.
i DO hate that the oil industry used hydro power as a wedge to destroy carb, but blame that on greed & politics, NOT THE TECHNOLOGY!
i must be the ONLY one here who watched alan alda's scientific american frointeirs show on PBS religiously as no one seems to remember seeing the scandinavian hydrogen station that was basically a giant hydrogen fuel cell run in reverse. electricity & water go in, and hydrogen comes out.
i must be the only one who saw the ford escort that ran off hydro with just a few thousand dollars in plumbing changes. sorry EVers, being able to convert MOST cars on the road to a technology unhampered by range or charge time issues at a FRACTION of the cost of EV conversion is a total win win situation.
before you start calling me a corporate schill, why don't you read my posts and see my pure venomous hatred of big business, lobbyists & the sheep that don't want to french revolution their butts like me. if you want to call me a shill, then my mountain bike has the right to call you a sellout. i'm way greener than you are in that count.
oil industries DID destroy hydrogen tech. you must not have seen or payed attention to who killed the electric car where GM bought the patents for hydrogen cells (same exact tech as hydrogen generators) and then sold it to the oil industry. that is a FACT! they cornered the market on 100% renewable hydrogen.
yes, now you need to use chemicals to make hydrogen because of the corporate scumbags (mobil i think) that killed it's future until someone who can't be bought comes up with another renewable way to generate hydrogen.
thinking of getting electricity off the grid IF it even were possible to get the tech back from oil scumbags is incredibly short sighted. stations could generate their own electricity on sight with wind and half a dozen solar techs.
my dream would be burning the oil & banking industries etc. to the ground, and lining CEOs, shareholders, lobbyists, political whores & media conspirators up for the gillotine just as the french did in their revolution and converting ALL gas stations into hydrogen stations with windmills and/or solar steam, stirling or cells on their roofs.
i get my electricity from hydro power (yay!) by the way. not everyone is connected to coal & nuclear.
go ahead and call me an a-hole, but don't EVER question my love for this planet and the environment. i've been riding this huffy revolution since 1992! read the nature is p#ssed, i love this bike & gasoline kills bumper stickers.
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z157/zeroemission/quarterview1024.jpg
my support for hydrogen has absolutely DIDDLY to do with politics or business. it has to do with renewability, cost & ease of conversion, extended range and speed of refilling. purely technical issues. the scum that be you accuse me of aligning myself with are what's keeping the tech off the market. separate their heads from their bodies, and the world would be a much better place.
BTW i have more than one battle scar from riding bikes AFTER i stopped driving my durable as heck red 1989 38/42mpg 993cc 3 cylinder daihatsu charade
i DO hate that the oil industry used hydro power as a wedge to destroy carb, but blame that on greed & politics, NOT THE TECHNOLOGY!
i must be the ONLY one here who watched alan alda's scientific american frointeirs show on PBS religiously as no one seems to remember seeing the scandinavian hydrogen station that was basically a giant hydrogen fuel cell run in reverse. electricity & water go in, and hydrogen comes out.
i must be the only one who saw the ford escort that ran off hydro with just a few thousand dollars in plumbing changes. sorry EVers, being able to convert MOST cars on the road to a technology unhampered by range or charge time issues at a FRACTION of the cost of EV conversion is a total win win situation.
before you start calling me a corporate schill, why don't you read my posts and see my pure venomous hatred of big business, lobbyists & the sheep that don't want to french revolution their butts like me. if you want to call me a shill, then my mountain bike has the right to call you a sellout. i'm way greener than you are in that count.
oil industries DID destroy hydrogen tech. you must not have seen or payed attention to who killed the electric car where GM bought the patents for hydrogen cells (same exact tech as hydrogen generators) and then sold it to the oil industry. that is a FACT! they cornered the market on 100% renewable hydrogen.
yes, now you need to use chemicals to make hydrogen because of the corporate scumbags (mobil i think) that killed it's future until someone who can't be bought comes up with another renewable way to generate hydrogen.
thinking of getting electricity off the grid IF it even were possible to get the tech back from oil scumbags is incredibly short sighted. stations could generate their own electricity on sight with wind and half a dozen solar techs.
my dream would be burning the oil & banking industries etc. to the ground, and lining CEOs, shareholders, lobbyists, political whores & media conspirators up for the gillotine just as the french did in their revolution and converting ALL gas stations into hydrogen stations with windmills and/or solar steam, stirling or cells on their roofs.
i get my electricity from hydro power (yay!) by the way. not everyone is connected to coal & nuclear.
go ahead and call me an a-hole, but don't EVER question my love for this planet and the environment. i've been riding this huffy revolution since 1992! read the nature is p#ssed, i love this bike & gasoline kills bumper stickers.
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z157/zeroemission/quarterview1024.jpg
my support for hydrogen has absolutely DIDDLY to do with politics or business. it has to do with renewability, cost & ease of conversion, extended range and speed of refilling. purely technical issues. the scum that be you accuse me of aligning myself with are what's keeping the tech off the market. separate their heads from their bodies, and the world would be a much better place.
BTW i have more than one battle scar from riding bikes AFTER i stopped driving my durable as heck red 1989 38/42mpg 993cc 3 cylinder daihatsu charade
nah, there is no conspiracy related to hydrogen, only one thing keeps it from the market, HORRIBLE WASTEFUL INEFFICIENCY in every aspect, from start to finish.the scum that be you accuse me of aligning myself with are what's keeping the tech off the market
You might as well burn wood for power generation, its renewable, carbon neutral, and just as inefficient as hydrogen, putting us back to stone age of technology.
TV shows, just like most other public media, don't bother themselves with paying attention to efficiency and economics of any particular subject they show off. Afterall, most viewers aren't educated enough to grasp at the concept of efficiency, which has been proven million times on every Internet forum where people like you post in support of hydrogen.i must be the ONLY one here who watched alan alda's scientific american frointeirs show on PBS religiously as no one seems to remember seeing the scandinavian hydrogen station that was basically a giant hydrogen fuel cell run in reverse. electricity & water go in, and hydrogen comes out.
No technology will ever see mass market at 10% efficiency, unless heavily subsidized by government, which makes it even worse, pure evil.
except for the edison lightbulb. luckily we also have LED's, hp/lp sodium lights, tube lights and the folded-up-tube-light energy saving bulb. (last 2 are actually the same kind of crap as hydrogen, they contain mercury and are thus a real hazard to the environment and peoples health.)
luckily we also have LED's, hp/lp sodium lights, tube lights and the folded-up-tube-light energy saving bulb. (last 2 are actually the same kind of crap as hydrogen, they contain mercury and are thus a real hazard to the environment and peoples health.)
That has nothing to do with hydrogen, and if a holier than thou argument is the best you can do, you won't win many supporters here.i'm way greener than you are in that count.
So you watch a science show on PPS - good for you.
You ride a bike and refuse to own a car - we don't care, but good for you anyway.
What net efficiency did that thing on PPS deliver?
Were the numbers independantly verified?
How much did the project cost?
I'm not defending the personal references levelled against you, but you are not exactly taking the high road either.
G
I know the amount of electricity required to make hydrogen would get me further down the road if I just dumped it directly into my lithium batteries. No need for a fuel cell that is way more expensive than a good lithium pack. One tank full of hydrogen is about the same range as a full electric vehicle so no incentive there either. Electric plugs abound where hydrogen stations are pretty much nonexistent. So what is up with the hydrogen? Well If you happen to have an over abundance of electricity and can't use it all and cant store it all then go ahead and make hydrogen for use later. Better that than not using the electricity and wasting that. But for the main stream, Electricity will be KING.
Pete
I love my planet too. Heck go electrify your bike with a nice affordable lithium pack and some smaller speakers. You will cruise in style and still have your sound system. Damn, those are some mighty large speakers. A bit overkill if you ask me. Tryin to piss someone off with those boomers?
Pete
I love my planet too. Heck go electrify your bike with a nice affordable lithium pack and some smaller speakers. You will cruise in style and still have your sound system. Damn, those are some mighty large speakers. A bit overkill if you ask me. Tryin to piss someone off with those boomers?
As others have pointed out, you seem to lack understanding of the poor efficiency of the entire hydrogen process, no matter how many times we explain it to you. I guess you need to watch some more TV shows, maybe some with real science in them. Here's a small bit of info you can ponder upon, burning hydrogen in an ICE is probably the very least efficient use of an already inefficient product. Since there is zero hydrogen infrastructure any hydrogen vehicle is extremely hampered by range issues and charge times.....his usual misinformed hydrogen rant....
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