DIY Electric Car Forums banner

1 - 13 of 13 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
78 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Here he goes again folks,
Why this doesn`t deserve some celebrating I am wondering.

Is it that we have been handed so much `coming soon` and novel superlative claptrapp that another ``breakthrough`` announcement is hardly noticed any more, or does everyone else know about this while I, at my age was snoozing in my rocker.

Anyway read about this at www.toshiba.com/scib.

Forthcoming in 2011, according to this, a twelve pack and a twenty four pack, and look at those charts from Toshiba. Holy cow. If I expire before they they are released I will do my best to do a Houdini return to see what these packs :rolleyes: look like in front of my Oswald 16.3 PM watercooled.

And if that isn`t enough, my SKiM 909GD066HD Semikrons have finally found their way to the marketplace for small quantity users. I will be soliciting ideas for my inverter using these Semikrons since I have now passed through my latest itteration involving cascading. Imagine six of these expensive six packs for a melt down of the checking account (considering the rest of the 62 and 92 family). So please send your best ideas for a `nice` sine wave output.

And three cheers for Toshiba`s SCiB. Maybe there is hope for a long term friendship here.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
275 Posts
24volt packs: 4.2 ah, 4.4 pounds

Ok, so here is my hypothetical application:
sedan weight (without batteries): 2500 lbs.
Pack voltage needed: 192 Volts
Amp hours needed: 200 ah
------------------------------------------------------------
To achieve this using the SCiB 24v packs, I would need........
8 (24v packs) times 47 (200/4.2) = 376 packs (192volt, 200ah)
376 times 4.4 pounds = 1655 lbs.
------------------------------------------------------
Thundersky Lithium 200ah batteries are 16 lbs each. ($240ea)
192/3.2volts = 60 batteries
192 volt 200ah battery pack weight = 960 lbs
($14,400)
--------------------------------------------------------------

Did I miss something? Why would I add about 700 pounds to the vehicle?
Perhaps the cost of the SCiB batteries are significantly lower.....any idea of their cost?

Just curious why you think this is a breakthrough. Please show me the part I am missing.

Eric
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,308 Posts
It's also interesting how they come up with a 10 minute charge time on a 4Ah battery that can accept 8.4A charge rate... just over 2C would take just under 30mins to charge.... Also the 2C discharge rate doesn't do much for even a mild performance EV.

So we have:
weight = bad
charge rate = good (but not 10 mins)
discharge rate = poor
cost = ?

Lets hope they're cheap, or they haven't listed the specs on the "good" batteries yet.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
This article suggests the price could be quite low:
http://www.greenoptimistic.com/2008/10/06/toshiba-scib-battery/
It also seems to suggest that the 5 min charge requires forced cooling?

The low charge/discharge rates of these specific modules could possibly be due to some sort of bms. Just a theory, but I seem to remember far more impressive numbers from when I last read about these (a year or so ago)

Btw, there are some clips on youtube about this. Something about the schwinn bicycle and a video of a 1 min recharge.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
870 Posts
I have NiMh at my house specced to discharge at a higher continuous rate than these cells can do and with about 80% of the energy density based on weight.

It seems to me there is marketing pointing heavily to the low temperature performance, cycle life, and some sort of 10 minute charge that becomes fictional when you hit the specs.

If the cycle life was really that high where it could provide 6000 and the price was right I'd probably use them, probably not in a car though since I'm trying to veer as lightweight as possible.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
78 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
From a 2010 Toshiba page is this: Now in production are high energy density 4.2Ah cells, Additionally, Toshiba is aggressively pursuing a product roadmap focused on further increasing SCiB capacity, energy density and power density. 20 Ah cells with the same characteristics will be available in 2011.

Also: `Toshiba`s proprietary Lithium-Titanate Chemistry prevents Thermal Runaway.`
`82 % Capacity Retention, even after 6,000 rapid charge discharge cycles. (their graph showing linear results as above). 10C charge and 15A discharge, 25degrees C.
`Up to 85 % usable range of SOC without compromising cycle life`.
Excels at temperatures as low as -30C and up to 50deg. C.`
`Power density nearly equivalent to that of Ultra-Capacitors`.
`Produced on State of the art automated high volume production Line ensuring the customer received highest quality and stable supply....`

Best Wishes,
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
870 Posts
When they discuss power density of ultra capacitors, I'm wondering if their spec sheet is terribly out of date. It's hard to think that a huge company like Toshiba wouldn't have their act together in that respect though.

The 85% usage of SOC and lower amperage charge and discharge to 6000 cycles makes sense though, that sort of conservative battery usage is what extends the life of pretty much all batteries. 15amps/4.2Ah is 3.571C Not too bad, I could live with that and still figure an occassional heavier discharge would likely not hurt if I decided to go towards the performance route with motor/controller.

Based on the 2.4v nominal voltage, I had a hunch that they were a different type of lithium, good to see confirmation that it is lithium-titanate.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
78 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
From a Toshiba corporation document again dated 2010, this: `Battery solutions are available as complete battery packs with Toshiba`s proprietary battery management system (BMS) as modules with preconfigured arrays of cells, or as individual cells`.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
78 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Hi MN Driver,
Many thanks for your thoughtful feedback on the SCiBs. I initially tried to enter a blog by a fellow who made all the points that were mentioned via replies to this thread. It was blocked by DIY for the understandable good reason that the strange title appeared to have nothing to do with the SCiBs.

However it did, including some information about new cathode construction in the battery, and a bit about the new electrolye. The odd sounding title that brought this up was <Nissan Reports LEAF Range will Vary from 47 Miles to 138 miles>, from my aol search engine. If you wish to follow this, you will then scroll down to entry 117.

I have some space in western MN. in which to work on my project, far west central off highway 212. I would be interested in hearing about your project, if you should so choose. I visited with Tesseract at an energy fair last year, he does nice work on his E Subaru.

Tomorrow I am calling Toshiba Industrial at Houston, to see if I can be placed on a `to call or write list` concerning battery availability.

Again, thanks for your time. Hope to hear of your progress in E vehicle matters. Morf -designing a three phase inverter during the wait time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
870 Posts
Morf, My project is distant, it won't be happening for quite awhile. I recently bought a house and the money going in the direction of an EV is not going to build up too quickly. The idea is that I'd like to convert an Insight to electric power because it is a lightweight, aerodynamic, safe, and would make an extremely efficient electric car that would fit my needs. I'm currently thinking strongly of changing my plans though to turn it into a PHEV, it makes more financial sense, I can be driving it sooner, and requires much less work. The idea is to match my energy capacity so that way I can drive to work and back getting an average of 150mpg traveling at highway speeds using a mix of electric power through the standard IMA and use more gas for when I need power to climb hills and accelerate. I'm currently looking at a pack somewhere 3kw and 6.6kw. I drive cross country with the car and think it would be best so I can avoid the requirement of taking a less efficient car and still have a setup lightweight enough to where I don't mind crossing the country as I without lose as much efficiency by carrying extra weight. I'm not dedicated to pure EV but this setup would be more efficient than the Chevy Volt or the Nissan Leaf, which are much heavier and less aerodynamic vehicles. I really wouldn't mind driving with a little bit of gas because 128mpg is an ounce of gas per mile and I'd get a theoretical total range of 1356.8 miles. I wouldn't keep the tank full though, that's just extra unneeded weight.

SCiB's seem interesting, if I can deep cycle a battery more than LiFePO4 and still get a crazy life span and having high charge rate capability, I'd be very happy but the price would have to be right too.

So far my choices come down to a 166.4volt 52 cell 40Ah pack of Sky Energy cells, 153.6 volts 48 cells of A123 pouch cells(very expensive for the capacity), 155.4volts 25Ah of lithium polymer. ...but you can't talk about that final choice here, everyone is too afraid even though it's a cheaper option it's also a much lighter and more compact option, cycle life and safety are everyones concerns but they are only unsafe if you don't know how to use Lithium properly and cycle life seems very promising from what I'm reading elsewhere from people who have been using these a long tme. I'd have to keep the pack warm in the winter to keep it charged or replace it with the stock pack in the cold. I think I could keep it warm though.

I'm sorry if I'm going a little off topic but it's hard to get into my plans without the details.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
It's also interesting how they come up with a 10 minute charge time on a 4Ah battery that can accept 8.4A charge rate... just over 2C would take just under 30mins to charge.... Also the 2C discharge rate doesn't do much for even a mild performance EV.

So we have:
weight = bad
charge rate = good (but not 10 mins)
discharge rate = poor
cost = ?

Lets hope they're cheap, or they haven't listed the specs on the "good" batteries yet.
Lets see if I can help.
$39.50 Ebay and an initial $70 fee and $6 per additional cell.
Each cell is 2.3 normal and 2.7 Charged and 1.5-1.7 discharged
Each cell weighs 510 Grams
1c=10 Amps and maxing cells at 10x to 100 amp or even 20 Amp will shorten the life expectancy.
I've broke down and got a Leaf cells Ion that has a cycle life of 5700 cycles or a min 3200 if I max its Amps. Total of 14 cells at 72V at 50 Ah. I use it on my Ebike and I'm building a Vel-mobile with 4 wheels for casual travel during rainy days. I hope the above info helps. Since the US opted out of the Tpp deal, it takes between 42-75 days for transport by ocean. These cells are considered hazardous even for 1 cell... Do the math, the cycle life is unreal and I've got 6 on order.
 
1 - 13 of 13 Posts
Top