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Upgrading My 1990 Miata Miata

11529 Views 186 Replies 14 Participants Last post by  Forrest
This will be the thread about my attempt at upgrading my working (albeit slow and loud) Mazda Miata conversion. Everyone's feedback and comments are welcome. I can take it. :)

First - about the car at present - the body is in great condition for being 30 years old. The top is new, all the lights and accessories work. It has a custom battery I made (mostly because I wanted to learn about the process) which is 21s (77V) and 136 AH. (10kWh). For V1 I used two 72V motors connected with the loudest chain on the planet. I have a Soliton 1 controller (340 V, 1000 amps) waiting to go in. I invite you to check out details on my website, here.

The other thing - I am a electrical engineering college student who likes doing things myself on the cheap - I am doing this project for the process and not as much the result. I didn't build my own battery (and my own spot welder, for that matter) because I thought I could do it better than Elon... So ditching everything and switching to a high voltage AC system is out of the picture.

The current plan:
- Acquire beefy forklift motor. (In progress, if you have had success with this and are in the DC area let me know)
- Remove the transmission and directly drive the differential. Add reversing solenoid for reverse.
- Extend the drive shaft and attach it to the motor. There is a universal joint on both ends of the drive shaft already.
- Possibly (see below) extend the C beam and attach it to the motor.

Here's my question for everyone - it is necessary or advised to balance the torque running through the driveshaft? We know that if my driveshaft is transmitting X amount of torque, an equal and opposite X torque has to somehow be transferred back from the differential to the front. The transmission presently has a C beam (see image below) that connects its output to the differential - the reaction torque is absorbed by this C beam.

One idea I had would be to extend this C beam forward to my motor, so both the drive shaft and beam would be attached to the motor. The motor would not exert torque on whatever is supporting it (aka, my 30 year old frame).

Thoughts on whether this is this necessary?

Here's an image of the output of the transmission. A driveshaft connects it to the differential. The C beam is attached quite heftily to the transmission and the differential housing.

Font Line Auto part Automotive window part Parallel

Other bits:
- I have access to basic tools. Lots of electronics stuff. No welding on site, but I know a guy.
- I plan to upgrade the battery pack from a 21s to a 40s after the forklift motor is good and secure. So if this first edition goes 40 mph, its ok.
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Well, goal number three is over. The DC-DC module arrived, I pulled the board out of the charger to desolder the old one, and would ya believe it but one of the power pins to the DC-DC had never been soldered! It must have been just touching since it was built and never was checked. I didn't know if that was actually the problem, so I soldered it up... put it back in the charger... sure enough both measurements worked again! I am going to label that one solved. I don't think digikey has a return policy for 2 parts worth less than 20 dollars. :)

In other news... I am going to build 4 20s5p modules, to add onto my 21s20p pack for a total of 41s20p, which will be 151.7 V and 136 AH for a total energy of 21.66 kWh, (assume 80%) so really 17.33 which is approx 60 miles. The modules will go in the front. I considered 5s20p modules... but then I have to build 8 high current bus bars that collect the current across 20 cells. I still need 8 bus bars this way, but each of them are shorter (5 cells across) and handle a 4th of the current. Downside is I have to route 19 bms wires for every pack. I think 19 * 4 wires is still better than bolting nickel strip to a bus bar * 40 per pack * 4 packs.
Rectangle Line Wood Musical instrument Art

Here's a quick model, banana for scale. Guaranteed to change, bus bars / nickel strip not shown.
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Hi everyone!

I am on summer break. My summer job starts in a month; I won't be at home much after that point. Then another two weeks at the end of summer to work. I don't have a difficult goal lined up like I did for the winter sprint to replace the motor, but nevertheless have some long term goals I want to chip away at.

The car is running great except the noise still exists. 700 motor amps through my warp 9 is really fun... to bad that only lasts till 15 mph where I hit my battery limit.

Goal #1: Finish the motor (for good)
- At this point I have narrowed it down to two possible solutions. One is replacing the driveshaft with a telescoping driveshaft and then changing the spline connection (currently from motor to driveshaft) to a direct bolted/welded connection. The other is to mount/weld a support bearing (or possible original tail housing) around driveshaft female spline. Still deliberating. I am willing to throw 1k at this so can afford a trip to the driveshaft shop if I go mid shaft telescoping splines driveshaft route.
Goal #2: Upgrade battery pack to 144 or so volts.
- The pack is my DIY 21s20p 26800 (6.8AH each) pack that I built myself. I have about enough cells to make a 41s or 40s 20p pack. My charger and controller and motor can take it, I'll swap out the DC-DC and that's that. New pack will be built in 4s20p modules, 5 of them, positioned up front.
Goal #3: Fix my broken charger.
- The AC Mains and Battery voltage readings of my charger has failed. It is an EARLY EMW 12kW charger... I figured an EE student better be able to diagnose and fix this thing... anyways I did and the isolated DC-DC that provides +- 15V for the input of the isolated op amps on the charger reads .1V... I think it failed. (Unpowered it reads 1.3k Ohms between the terminals, so not shorted) Bought 2 replacements on Digikey, here in a few days, I'll swap it out and then try again. I have the firmware for this thing and so have bypassed the need for valid readings and enabled constant current operation... (with BMS cutoff, but still) but that's dangerous.

I'll probably end up working on whatever excites me, hopefully I can finish up goal #3 real quick.
The slip-yoke driveshaft option is better IMHO than the shorty tailshaft housing that will require grease. The slip-yoke driveshaft will also require grease, but it won't require filling as regularly.
The slip-yoke driveshaft option is better IMHO than the shorty tailshaft housing that will require grease. The slip-yoke driveshaft will also require grease, but it won't require filling as regularly.
Thank you for your input - and I agree. The slip-yoke driveshaft is currently the direction I am heading due to this reason, plus I think the bearing mounting in place wouldn't be as precise and as permanent as the slip-yoke driveshaft.

Continued work on the battery boxes today - working my uni network to find someone with CNC access for free. Looks like I will be able to get trained and learn use one of those machines next week. Charger still operational.
Well... I have done several experiments and have generated a few theories.

Tested vibration without driveshaft connected... still exists, maybe 50% as loud as original @ 2540 rpm
Tested vibration without adapter/spline stub (this thing). Still exists, maybe 30% as loud as original @ 2540 rpm

Visually noticed the outside of the adapter is not even. (video here, you can clearly see it)
Held a stick up to the spline shaft that was rested against the frame. I could hear the rubbing noise change in intensity at the same frequency as it rotated, but seemed less than the outside of the adapter... I don't know if that's true though.

Theory #1: Balance of adapter. Because my machinist did not machine the outside curved face of the cylindrical stock that I gave him, the outside edge is not consistent with the faces (he faced it) or the holes. I believe the spline shaft is 90 deg from the taperlock, and I believe that it is centered within the six bolt holes. I believe this is one cause of the vibration - the uneven material around the the adapter. Ok well I measured the distance between the bolts and the outside of the adapter and it was consistent to within .1 mm which I know is just my measurement error with my calipers - it is hard to align the caliper jaws with the point where the bolt hole is closest to the outside of the adapter. But this theory is less likely to be the reason for what we see in the video. I now believe the unevenness of the adapter is due to the face of the taper lock it is mounted on not being correctly ground down. The taper lock originally had a female spline welded to it when it came to me, I cut that off and gridened it down.

Theory #2: Resonance of sled. As a reminder, the vibration is most intense from 35-40 mph and does not occur when accelerating. I can still hear the vibration at 55, but it is much less. 35-40 mph is 2222 - 2540 rpm, which is 37 to 42 Hz. I built the sled riding on four rubber automotive mounts. I theorize that the sled system with rubber mounts is resonant at approx 40Hz. This would explain why the noise goes away when under load - the rubber mounts are loaded differently and the resonant frequency of the system would change.

Theory #3: Imbalance of taper lock. When I got this taper lock, it had a female spline on it. I cut off the spline and then grinded it down so the face of the adapter would sit evenly on the face. I did not evenly grid down the taper lock... some parts have more material than others. I think this, in combination with the resonance, is the reason for th

I also still am keeping in my mind that there is some slack between my splines. Here's the best video I have of this so far. When I took the adapter off, there was no visible wear to the splines on the male side. It was still greased up from earlier.
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Visually noticed the outside of the adapter is not even. (video here, you can clearly see it)
That's pretty damning.

Ok well I measured the distance between the bolts and the outside of the adapter and it was consistent to within .1 mm
I mean, you can see when it's spinning it's off by more than an order of magnitude above that.

Also, hard to be precise about your words, but, it's not the distance between the bolts and the outside that matters, it's the difference between the center and the outside. You could try the trick I did, of just taking a narrow point marker, holding it against a steady rest, and slowly levering it to the surface while it's spinning. Aim it close to the outside of the diameter on the face. It'll show you where a circle centered on the axis of rotation is.

Exaggerated clumsy example:


I started at the center and spiralled my way outwards until the tip was skipping off the edge, but, no need to do that. Just start near the edge.

It's a large weight to be offset. Pretty much a giant rumble pack.

Theory #2: Resonance of sled. As a reminder, the vibration is most intense from 35-40 mph and does not occur when accelerating. I can still hear the vibration at 55, but it is much less. 35-40 mph is 2222 - 2540 rpm, which is 37 to 42 Hz. I built the sled riding on four rubber automotive mounts. I theorize that the sled system with rubber mounts is resonant at approx 40Hz. This would explain why the noise goes away when under load - the rubber mounts are loaded differently and the resonant frequency of the system would change.
I'm surprised that 30% of the vibration is still there without driveshaft or coupler mounted. Is your motor that unbalanced? Resonance is possible but, like a tuning fork, it's really only going to happen at a very narrow and specific frequency. You're seeing it across a sloppy range. Something's up.

Theory #3: Imbalance of taper lock. When I got this taper lock, it had a female spline on it. I cut off the spline and then grinded it down so the face of the adapter would sit evenly on the face. I did not evenly grid down the taper lock... some parts have more material than others.
I'm not sure what you're saying, but, if two faces aren't perpendicular to each other, then, yeah, your driveshaft is going to be sent into wobble because it's pointed diagonally rather than parallel and concentric to the axis of rotation.

404's.
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Visually noticed the outside of the adapter is not even. (video here, you can clearly see it)
That's pretty damning.

I mean, you can see when it's spinning it's off by more than an order of magnitude above that.
I agree with Matt.

I realize that there are practical limits to the level of equipment that a hobby can justify, but anyone building rotating equipment really should have a simple dial indicator. That would show the degree to which the the adapter is off-centre (or out-of-round), and is used at very low speed (manually turned) so it isn't affected by issues such as resonance in mounting systems.
2
Fixed link for that one video.

I'm surprised that 30% of the vibration is still there without driveshaft or coupler mounted. Is your motor that unbalanced? Resonance is possible but, like a tuning fork, it's really only going to happen at a very narrow and specific frequency. You're seeing it across a sloppy range. Something's up.

I'm not sure what you're saying, but, if two faces aren't perpendicular to each other, then, yeah, your driveshaft is going to be sent into wobble because it's pointed diagonally rather than parallel and concentric to the axis of rotation.
Believe me, I am surprised that there is still vibration as well.

To clarify what I mean by imbalance of the taper lock:

When I got the motor the taper lock had this female spline welded on. I wanted to use it, so I cut it off with an angle grinder with a cutting blade, plus I grinded it down.


Note the grinding marks.

One of my theories is that the face that is shown isn't completely flat and that is causing the offset in the material. This could cause the offset of the adapter that we see in the video. I held a straight edge up there and couldn't get it to rock back and forth, which would indicate a ridge of material... so I don't know.

My other theory is that the material I grinded off wasn't even - aka there is imbalance in the taper lock because of how I grinded away the old female spline. That could be causing vibration without adapter or driveshaft.

I wish I could take the taper lock off and run the motor up... last time it took a blow torch and a lot of pulling, and it was on the bench. I would like to not take it out of the car if possible.

I realize that there are practical limits to the level of equipment that a hobby can justify, but anyone building rotating equipment really should have a simple dial indicator.
Dial indicator purchased.
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One of my theories is that the face that is shown isn't completely flat and that is causing the offset in the material. This could cause the offset of the adapter that we see in the video. I held a straight edge up there and couldn't get it to rock back and forth, which would indicate a ridge of material... so I don't know.
If there's a crown on there, absolutely. You might be off-angle. Though the degree to which you are off-angle, to cause so significant a wobble, I'm not sure.

My other theory is that the material I grinded off wasn't even - aka there is imbalance in the taper lock because of how I grinded away the old female spline. That could be causing vibration without adapter or driveshaft.
This I highly doubt. The minuscule difference in balance among the grinding imperfections I can't see causing that amount of shake, and, definitely it is not the result of the very visible wobble which is probably 2 orders of magnitude more off-center material than could be possible with those grinding gouges.

...

From the looks of things you have 2 problems:

1 - You have weight that is off-center being flung around. That's definitely causing wobble. You could fix this at home by simply spinning the motor up, and holding a grinder, file, chisel, etc near the surface and grind down all the high spots, in effect using the motor as its own lathe.

2 - Your coupler is almost certainly mounted off-angle, and thus the driveshaft that connects to it is being spun off-angle or off-center or both. So now instead of a few dozen, maybe hundred grams of off-center material from the coupler, you have the entire mass of the driveshaft being spun that way. This will also destroy your transmission in, oh, 10-100 hours of driving.

A recap of what I went over during your spring break:



In your case, the off-center is possible, but the off-angle is almost a certainty (not because the male protrusion is crooked to the coupler body, but because the two halves of the coupler body are off-angle to each other.

Imagine spinning either of those situations and measuring the wobble, you'd certainly detect it.

You don't need a dial indicator if you want a head start. IIRC, couplers need to be centered and parallel within 0.004". At least, this is factory spec. They may vary more than that, even OEM, but even more reason to align them accurately.

A book is accurate to 0.004" (4 thou), a bible is accurate to 0.0015" (1.5 thou). Stack books (not great, as they turn into parallelegrams when you compress them) or offcuts of 2x4s to raise the book to the height that it'll be partially interfering with the coupler shaft. Then, while making sure the spine isn't arching as you do so (keep the measuring half flat), turn pages until you're just barely not able to fit one more page between the existing pages and the coupler shaft. Then rotate the shaft 90 degrees at a time and see whether it jams up or loosens, or, see what pages # you're on if you're doing a full reset. You can eyeball an air gap of 0.001", or just flip pages.

That said, accurately measuring it doesn't tell you much, we can see from your video that you're off by amounts that could be measured with a tape measure, let alone dial indicator. The challenge is how to fix it.

...

There's no way around it, you're going to have to at minimum split the coupler, if not remove it. I'd start with lapping it flat. You could try spinning up the half still attached to the motor, and using a wood chisel or file to face it. The transmission half of the face you'll have to get more creative. If you have access to a lathe, slap the output splines into a lathe and just face the other side. At least that'll get you square and perpendicular. Centered... hopefully is also fixed by facing. Presumably the coupler was machined properly in the first place, it's just your grinding that upset it.

In a nightmare scenario you could shim the low side with a sliver of pop can or even aluminum foil, so that when clamped it squared it up. A little trig based on your bible-measured runout and the distance of that measuring point to the coupler face would tell you how many thou of shimming you'd need.
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How are you mounting the motor to the sled? - and the sled to the car?

All motors will provide some torsional variation as they rotate - nowhere near as much as IC engines - but still there

You need the motor-sled or the sled-body mountings to have some rubber in them - its a frequency thing - you need something to isolate the torsional variation from the chassis
How are you mounting the motor to the sled? - and the sled to the car?
Like so:


You need the motor-sled or the sled-body mountings to have some rubber in them - its a frequency thing - you need something to isolate the torsional variation from the chassis
He's got rubber. Also, yes, but, biggest problems first. His coupler is visually imbalanced. That's like considering divorcing your wife because she has bad breath... and she killed her whole family.
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There was this whole thing here about taperlocks being difficult to mount true back when, particularly for one maker selling to us DIY converters. Generally fiddling with assembly and swapping parts back and forth got them fairly close, but some were so badly done they were useless as even boat anchors and apparently wrong assembly can cause them to be ruined.... like the bible page feeler gauge trick, but HF has a cheap last word setup or you can use a fine threaded bolt
I have decided that the noise when spinning up the motor without the adapter is acceptable. Really, it is pretty decent above and below 40. I still do believe that the sled system is resonant at that 40 mph mark... the whole car just hums at 40mph.

Back to the adapter, though. Today I tested whether the adapter sagged in the direction it was initially installed - I wanted to test this because I realized when I put a bolt in the adapter hole, the bolt has the tiniest amount of wiggle, which means the bolt holes on the adapter are slightly bigger than the bolt diameter - enough that there could be some off center action in the adapter.

Exaggerated example.




I cleaned up the outside edge of the adapter with some sand paper and then did the sharpie test on the outside edge. I just used two bolts. The sharpie marked the part of the adapter closer to the bottom bolt relative to the installation direction, which means that this is for sure one cause.

Amazon messed up my order, the dial indicator comes tomorrow. I am going to crank down all six bolts a good amount, then basically hit the adapter toward the center until the dial indicator is happy. I'd do the book trick but I would just want myself to redo it once I got the indicator.

I think if I test with the dial indicator on the front and back edge of the adaptor (grey arrows) then I can be sure that the adapter itself is neither off center nor off angle. I still believe that the spline is straight relative to the adapter face.

Edit:
Bolt diameter measures .3895 to .3900
Hole diameter measures .3955 to .3965
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Maybe you could "sleeve" either the bolts or the holes, to "take up" the extra space & help center the component.
Now you're starting to understand why the grownups use splines...they self center.

Let's see what the dial indicator says.
If you are going to use bolts to center your adapter - normally there is a "register" in the two parts and the bolts just clamp together

Then I would suggest using wheel nuts/bolts - which have a taper - and machining a matching taper in the top of the hole - they don't have to be exactly the same
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A taper lock requires a centering/aligning mechanism behind it - splines or a compliant coupling going to a rigid bearing shaft. You have neither.

The taperlock itself is not centering/aligning, is it? I don't think it is.

I think if you're centering on bolts, you have a serious problem no matter what kind of tapers you machine in. In other words, I don't think a taperlock to a rigid driveshaft yoke can be concentric or aligned axially with a taperlock. Wrong part for the job.

If it was my baby, I'd press fit the yoke onto the motor shaft, no coupling at all. You can figure out how to lock that in place without splines in play.
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With a pressfit, you can even weld it in place, though for most motors it means never being able to service its shaft bearing again.
If it was my baby, I'd press fit the yoke onto the motor shaft, no coupling at all. You can figure out how to lock that in place without splines in play.
And then have this go to the telescoping driveshaft... interesting idea.
Let's see what the dial indicator says.
This is the current plan - see if I can center the adapter up with the axis of rotation with the old "hit it with the hammer and check" method. I am also going to check the taper lock as well... but how could that be off center? I just don't understand where variations could come from.
DO NOT hit it with a hammer or you'll fuck up the motor shaft bearings. Even your girly taps translate to thousands of PSI of compression pressure on the bearing races (the ball or roller theoretically has an almost zero length contact patch...pressure = force/area, as area -> 0, = ? )

You are checking to see if it's the culprit. You are abandoning its use in a fashion for which it can't work. Repeat after me: "I will not try to make my fucked up use of a taper lock work, because it can't"

Figure out how to keep the shaft from turning inside the press fit yoke.

Brainstorm here as well as get feedback - we're not shy about giving out advice and opinions here 😛 Yes, telescoping driveshaft is proper and seems inevitable, anyway.

Almost makes the dial indicator academic, but it is a good datapoint on figuring out what's haunting you and if the bad vibes might end.

This is the taper lock currently on the motor shaft. The taper itself has six sections that all squeeze the shaft when the ring comes on. To be honest I can't tell the difference between a centering/aligning taper lock or not. But for sure the taper locks that have just one slit seem to be less centering than mine with six. My justification for this part was that it was already on the motor... so someone else had deemed it acceptable.

I will measure the outside edge of the taper lock and also the face of the taper lock to determine if it is centered or not. I just don't understand how that taper could be off center.

DO NOT hit it with a hammer or you'll fuck up the motor shaft bearings. Even your girly taps translate to thousands of PSI of compression pressure on the bearing races (the ball or roller theoretically has an almost zero length contact patch...pressure = force/area, as area -> 0, = ? )
Something about this doesn't seem quite right... if this was true then any force would have a catastrophic impact on the bearings. Granted, I don't know much about the bearings in this motor and what they are designed for.
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