[Cera]

Went to check for the floor to see what the rust side of things looks like:

I mean.. Could be worse but still need to figure out what to do with this too soon. I don't have any welding equipment nor experience, but anything can be learned if need be checking up with car body work shops first though for their offers, if I'm lucky there is a professional willing to tackle it for a reasonable price.

Indoors:

As for the Leaf motor, I know it says "140V to 420V" but what kind of voltage it does actually run nicely with? Like.. what's the original Leaf battery output V it's designed for? It's difficult to find anything but Leaf motor coupled with Leaf batteries it seems, and I guess it's for the voltage reasons because achieving even the lowest end 140V with Tesla modules is going to get proper expensive proper quickly. so at that point stuff like Hyper9 coupled with say, 5s Tesla modules (110V -ish) sounds like a lower cost despite the motor package being crazy more expensive.

 

[Cera]

Okay so the stock Leaf battery pack is 360V. I did some quick calculations based on the info I'm able to find online.

With the 360V nominal required for optimal output for Leaf motor, compared to 140V for Hyper9

This is by no means my definitive plans but rather a quick sketching to shed more light to options available again. Price estimates are from quick online searching, not the "best price available".



Maybe it was obvious for you folks from the beginning, but as a newbie it certainly wasn't. But anyway it seems clear that running Leaf motor with Tesla batteries is just not feasible cost/benefits-wise. Maaaybe with slighly above the minimum voltage reqs but that just wouldn't make a good build in my mind.

Running for example Hyper 9HV, aiming for ~50kWh at 140V with Tesla modules would add up to nigh 20k eur (batteries+motor) in total excluding bits and bops and work. Assuming motor kit price of 5000eur.

Running Leaf hardware all the way would prooobably be half of that at around 10k for the batteries + motor. Way cheaper, but with a question mark hovering over the battery lifespan, my skills in wiring up the VCU's as well as less proven (and custom machined = added costs) motor mounts, couplers, etc.

I purposefully calculated first with 140V as it was the minimum for Leaf motor. But I guess 2p5s would be the most feasible with Hyper9 style of option with 114V, 52.4kWh, 10 modules adding up to 13k-ish eur. That'd bring 50kWh price (batteries + motor) down with 2 modules and to ~18k eur. Still way more than Leaf hardware.

I'd really like the longevity of Tesla modules as well as the internal cooling option, but bah Leaf makes a very attractive alternative in batteries as well. Hyper9 would also eliminate the need for custom fabricated motor mounts, couplers, etc since there's plenty of those (and AC-50's) stuck to VW transaxle already and it seems expensive but proven combination.

I'm throwing these thoughts here for a reminder for myself as well as for others to use.

 

[piotrsko]

Hmm. Is there a specific reason why Leaf motor should be mounted "in front of axle" (as it sits in Leaf itself) when using the Leaf gearbox? Or can I mount it "wrong way around" with the motor sitting "behind" the axle as would most likely be necessary in this bus where the engine room exists in the rear...? Of course this would kind of invert forwards and reverse, but does that matter with electric motors?

Obviously there isn't really much room in front of the rear axle, when the original engine sits behind it. So the only option I can think of is either mounting the Leaf motor to the existing transmission (rather would not), or turning the whole stack wrong way 'round and perhaps cut some metal from where the fuel tank normally sits (above the clutch bell housing)

View attachment 127524

Bit late, but: the ring gear in the trans will flip over so you could mount any motor anywhere in the back any rotation. Many tranny places online here in the US do custom axles but they're pric€y. Anything aircooled will bolt up, it was all interchangeable back when.

They are rated 1/2 ton, the swingaxles with reductions and proper tires were 3/4 ton

 

[remy_martian]

For where you are, that rust is minimal.

Given you're not going to run it in winter, and you will run it in nice summer temperatures, you really don't need the Tesla module benefits.

Frankly, you can just buy another set of Leaf cells, or better, buy a whole leaf pack, use what you need for traction power, the rest as stationary storage which you'd rarely use because your hydro-electrics there are pretty reliable. Swap in the stationaries after you are done abusing the tractions...OR...swap in the stationaries as paralleled range extenders for long trips (after all, you have a TRUCK).

Since this is your first rodeo, you can always go back in and redo and should be able to sell off what you pull out.

 

[brian_]

As for the Leaf motor, I know it says "140V to 420V" but what kind of voltage it does actually run nicely with? Like.. what's the original Leaf battery output V it's designed for? It's difficult to find anything but Leaf motor coupled with Leaf batteries it seems, and I guess it's for the voltage reasons because achieving even the lowest end 140V with Tesla modules is going to get proper expensive proper quickly...

The Nissan Leaf's nominal battery voltage is 360 V, resulting from 96 of the most common type of lithium-ion cells in series. This same voltage (resulting from the same battery configuration) also applies to all Tesla Model S, X, 3, and Y (except the Plaid), most other current production EVs, and most if not all plug-in hybrids (including the Chevrolet Volt and Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid).

 

[remy_martian]

For a "healthcare worker", she's pretty knowledgeable and a quick study.

She's asking for an operational voltage minimum to run a Leaf motor on her bus, Brian.

I think she knows what you posted, already. She's trying to decide on a traction motor by understanding system costs, the main component of which is the battery.

Given it's around 200HP and she really only needs 70-80, that says >= 44s xp would work, giving a min voltage of around 144V, where x is the parallel number of cells in a Leaf (which I don't know, nor do I know the module config for a Leaf).

 

[brian_]

In case my previous post wasn't clear...
The Leaf is designed for 360 volts, but of course can run on less. So is almost everything else.

 

[remy_martian]

Your post was clear. Your guidance/recommendation was crap 😉

 

[Cera]

For a "healthcare worker", she's pretty knowledgeable and a quick study.

She's asking for an operational voltage minimum to run a Leaf motor on her bus, Brian.

I think she knows what you posted, already. She's trying to decide on a traction motor by understanding system costs, the main component of which is the battery.

Given it's around 200HP and she really only needs 70-80, that says >= 44s xp would work where x is the parallel number of cells in a Leaf (which I don't know).

Ha the " "

You clearly haven't seen finnish sisu

Also yeah, I do fix people for living. Requires breaking things as a hobby to counterbalance.

 

[remy_martian]

With people, you only get to break them once

 

[piotrsko]

you don't need all that hp. 36 was adequate, 50 was better, 70 gets dangerous on windy days, 300 is unstoppable stupid.

A ty2 with the factory A/C turned on could only go 35 mph in 3rd gear top speed on a level street. Btdt

 

[Cera]

you don't need all that hp. 36 was adequate, 50 was better, 70 gets dangerous on windy days, 300 is unstoppable stupid.

A ty2 with the factory A/C turned on could only go 35 mph in 3rd gear top speed on a level street. Btdt

Maybe you should re-read my plans. I've specifically stated I've absolutely no interest of pulling high power out from this.

Anyways!

Gearbox out. One of the rusty bolts did put up a small fight and required cutting. The most powerful cutter I have currently is a Dremel but ah well, it did the job. CV shafts came out easy, altho the bolts were covered in mud and grime I had to clean first to even see them.

That's de-ICE'ing almost complete now!

But, as it so often is, one problem solved leads to another one discovered.

While removing all kinds of small bits and bops in and around the motor bay, I eventually reached the heater hoses. Now I knew from beforehand that these probably would present an issue, since they feature everybody's favourite insulation material from the 60's; seals made of asbestos. I sprayed the joint with liberal amounts of oil and put wet cloth on it, then with all fingers crossed and hoping someone had replaced them in the bus's history removed the plastic tubing. Alas. There they are, completely stuck on the rusty metal pipe. No way I'm going to pry them off with screwdriver.

Covered them with liberal amounts of thick grease to prevent any dust, wet cloth on that, and retreated to think of the next game plan.

The other one is still safely stuck between the black plastic hose and the metal it connects to.

Ah well. Problem solving.

 

[remy_martian]

Borrow a hepa filter vacuum cleaner from work? 😂

Tricky.

Sucks.

You did well on the precautions. I think outdoors with local controlled negative pressure airflow in the duct area with a shopvac (you can get really cheap small ones) wrapped in a hepa filter, then double bag and dispose of it all? Wearing a respirator and a onesie tyvec suit taped at sleeves and nitrile gloves might work? Ideally, and this sounds macabre, is to enlist the help of a terminally ill mechanic...

I'd pull the duct beyond the asbestos joint and toss it as well.

edit: thinking about it...remove the duct from the other end or cut it off well upstream with a sawzall after wrapping it up in plastic sheet & duct taping it.

 

[Cera]

Challenges. At least I read about this from VW forums before tackling the parts. Would've sucked more to not know it.

There was slight hope someone could've swapped them to silicone when that came available, but that proved to be not the case.

I'm looking at pictures and schematics of the heater hose assembly and trying to figure out if it can be removed by cutting it "upstream" with the seals remaining in place. As long as they're either covered with thick grease or sandwiched between the plastic and metal it shouldn't be of an issue.

 

[Cera]

Come to think of it, I'll link these resources here as well for the asbestos in classic VW for other people who may come after me with the intentions of converting their classic VW. Luckily it's pretty decently documented and people have tested the different possible places to locate the dangerous ones:

TheSamba.com :: Ghia - View topic - Tell me this is not asbestos - heater hose

Classified ads, photos, shows, links, forums, and technical information for the Volkswagen automobile

www.thesamba.com

TheSamba.com :: Type 3 - View topic - Warm air mixing box thermostats

Classified ads, photos, shows, links, forums, and technical information for the Volkswagen automobile

www.thesamba.com

Might also be worth it to keep the possibility in mind when dealing with other classic vehicles.

 

[piotrsko]

Maybe you should re-read my plans. I've specifically stated I've absolutely no interest of pulling high power out from this.

Im not the one contemplating a tesla motor.

Just so you know, the metal heater tube is removable and replaceable

 

[Cera]

de-ICEing complete!

This is the pile of stuff that won't be going back to the car, at least not in that shape or form. T4 engine, its transmission, firewalls and insulation, fuel tank, filler hoses, and so on. Also just pure trash like old window seals in the plastic bags.

Empty former engine bay, future motor bay Looots of sand and dirt still in there though, but all the metal looks pretty good.

Also went ahead and removed the side and rear windows, side cover panels, sliding door with its mechanism, and so on. Preparing the chassis for the eventual sandblasting and repaint. Still the front section to go.

Bits and bops that can be re-used after some cleaning/painting/etc. Mostly rusty metal panels, windows and interior parts like stereo.

I think I need to start hunting new tyres too soon.. I haven't really solved how I'll get this to sandblasting (I don't have the tools nor space to do that myself) but new tyres will make moving the chassis much easier in general.. I don't know if it's better to disassemble and repair the axles and suspensions before or after sandblasting hmh. I mean..

Option 1) is to just get new tyres and the chassis into rolling condition. Take it for blasting and base coat paint with the old suspension parts in there, which would mean that areas such as bolt holes or stuff below them doesn't get blasted nor painted, which'd be slightly annoying.

Option 2) is to jack up the whole chassis now, drop the front axle for overhaul and clean / powder coat / repair all of it, then wirebrush the mounting points and bolt the "brand new" axle into the otherwise rusty chassis.. then do the same for the rear suspension arms, brakes, etc. Then roll the chassis into sandblasting with "new" suspension and brakes and stuff...

I don't know which is better!

Ah well. Still some disassembly to do before I need to seriously think about the next steps

I also got confirmation from our vehicle inspectors about the conversion. I was correct in that my maximum motor power will be 12kg/kW. So assuming 1220kg as the gross weight, it'd be 101kW. With more mass, more power. I think 110kW Leaf stack would possibly be the best option within these limits since I assume batteries and other things will bring up the weight to allow that. One inspector replied that a EM57 specsheet from Nissan would suffice to prove the motor power. Other inspector said that power measurement report from a dyno testing is also possible, if no specsheet is available.

Also I need to have a heater too, I was kinda planning on just skipping that, but apparently defogging is mandatory makes sense I guess. Otherwise just the "normal" rules based on the EU legislation, such as orange colour for HV, warning symbols into HV hardware, etc.

 

[remy_martian]

You can "derate" the inverter to produce 110kW at the wheels.

Pass inspection on the dyno (oops, no data sheets), bump it up to 150kW 😈

You must have mobile sandblasting there -- they do heavy equipment and structures. I'd put it on a rotisserie in your shop, pull everything off and bring the water to the camel.

Tires & wheels last, imo. They're bling and who cares if these get blasted a bit by overspray while blasting and paint?

 

[Cera]

You can "derate" the inverter to produce 110kW at the wheels.

Pass inspection on the dyno (oops, no data sheets), bump it up to 150kW 😈

You must have mobile sandblasting there -- they do heavy equipment and structures. I'd put it on a rotisserie in your shop, pull everything off and bring the water to the camel.

Tires & wheels last, imo. They're bling and who cares if these get blasted a bit by overspray while blasting and paint?

110kW is plenty enough for me. 80kW would be also, but there's more info about Gen2 Leaf motor and inverter builds, and they are more readily available.

In an ideal world that'd probably be what I'd consider first. However I don't own any form of rotisserie for this, nor the equipment to make one, it'd take a long time to first learn how to do welding, design the rotisserie or similar, and then pull that off successfully and safely. Also there is another car in the same garage so I cannot really do or have anyone else do any kind of spraying inside the garage.

New tyres because two of the current ones are completely flat. They hold air for 1-2 hours max. and make moving the car even 10cm within the garage a really painful job. New ones would allow for rolling chassis, which would make so many things easier and towing the vehicle for sandblasting/paint would become a possibility.

 

[Jay C]

110kW is plenty enough for me. 80kW would be also, but there's more info about Gen2 Leaf motor and inverter builds, and they are more readily available.

In an ideal world that'd probably be what I'd consider first. However I don't own any form of rotisserie for this, nor the equipment to make one, it'd take a long time to first learn how to do welding, design the rotisserie or similar, and then pull that off successfully and safely. Also there is another car in the same garage so I cannot really do or have anyone else do any kind of spraying inside the garage.

New tyres because two of the current ones are completely flat. They hold air for 1-2 hours max. and make moving the car even 10cm within the garage a really painful job. New ones would allow for rolling chassis, which would make so many things easier and towing the vehicle for sandblasting/paint would become a possibility.

W hat a fun project I makes me wish we were neighbors are you going to use the VW trans axle? be careful with the sand blasting the blasting media and dust gets every where... everywhere, I've done quite a few vintage auto restorations and some times I spent more time getting the "sand and dust out of little hidden nooks and crannies than I would have spent just scrubbing the road grime and surface rust off with a good old fashioned wire brush, a scraper and some work gloves I'm going to enjoy keeping track of your progress I should go and post an introduction before I start handing out advice