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WarP 13 vs. 2 x Warp 9

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Hi Everyone,


I'm in the early planning stages of converting my '68 Porsche to an EV (largely thanks to inspiration from Joey's Porsche and detailed build thread). I am blown away by the performance from twin WarP 9s from White Zombie and DC Plasma, and am interested in turning my Porsche into a quick 0-60 mph electric car (2-3 sec 0-60 mph desired).

The trouble is, it would be near impossible to fit tandem WarP 9s into the car (unless they were stacked on top of each other, which would introduce more complications or add $5k for a Rebirth Auto kit), so I am looking at the WarP 13 motor as an alternative. Does anyone know about the performance of this motor - how does it stack up against a twin Warp 9 set-up?

I can't find any builds using the WarP 13. Also, I don't quite understand the series or series/parallel configuration of the WarP 13. Is that something that the Zilla 2K will switch automatically and get more performance out of the motor (like it does for 2 WarP 9s)? I suspect I'll need the Zilla 2K, and a completely new direct-drive set-up to handle the torque (which will be another challenge for later - still looking at feasibility).

I've never built an EV before, so I apologise for my lack of knowledge.


Any help is appreciated!


Thanks!
-RGad
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The warp 13 isn't a "racing" motor and wouldn't work for what you want to do. Many people compare the performance of a pair of Warp9's to a Warp 11HV (not to a 13).
Unless your Porsche is VERY light, you are going to struggle to get 0-60 in 2-3 seconds.
I have a pretty quick EV (down because it looks like I zorched my motor so I've been looking at alternatives to just fixing my motor).
0-60 is around 4.8 seconds to the best I can measure and 3000lbs.

If you want a dedicated drag car that's another story, you can strip off everything and go with custom suspension. If you want it to be a street car with that kind of performance and some sort of range it's a much tougher challenge.

Neither are inexpensive, so I hope you have the budget to match the goals.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Many thanks for your help! Sorry to hear about your motor. :(


Fortunately, the stock weight of my '68 912 is 2,095 lbs. (one of the benefits of almost no safety provisions, and no PS, PB, etc.). If built well, it should be pretty light-weight post-conversion. My estimates are for a final weight of 2,690 lbs, which is between White Zombie (2,348 lbs), and DC Plasma (2,758 lbs).

Thanks very much for the advice re: WarP 13. With that, I'm guessing that the best performance option is a TransWarp 9 + WarP 9 connected together to achieve a sub-3 second 0-60 mph. (Also, could be lighter than the WarP 13) Given that I would have to stack the motors one on top of the other, would you (or anyone) know of any good options to link two motors together in such a fashion?

The only option I have found to date is a kit from Rebirth Auto, but I don't know that much about it.

In terms of budget, I justify it as being less expensive (and hopefully more fun) than a Tesla Model S costs in Canada. Plus, I think it would be a great experience to build an EV.


Thanks for your help!
-RGad
 

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I'm in the early planning stages of converting my '68 Porsche to an EV (largely thanks to inspiration from Joey's Porsche and detailed build thread). I am blown away by the performance from twin WarP 9s from White Zombie and DC Plasma, and am interested in turning my Porsche into a quick 0-60 mph electric car (2-3 sec 0-60 mph desired)


I've never built an EV before, so I apologise for my lack of knowledge.
Without putting the car on a massive weight reduction program this is going to be really tough to attain. To get to the 3 second 0-60 mark you will end up with a car that you would not want to drive on the street and would not have much range.

My suggestion since you have not built an EV before is to build a single motor EV with a single WarP 9 running 96 LiFePo4 cells of perhaps 60AH size. I would limit the motor current to 1000A because you can't really run these currents too long anyway. This should give you the experience of building a car and it will be a pretty fast car. This should be around a 6-7 second 0-60 mph car with a usable range of around 60 miles. When you get to the kinds of power levels you are talking about it is easy to break stuff and you will.

Good luck and best wishes!
 

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Many thanks for your help! Sorry to hear about your motor. :(


Fortunately, the stock weight of my '68 912 is 2,095 lbs. (one of the benefits of almost no safety provisions, and no PS, PB, etc.). If built well, it should be pretty light-weight post-conversion. My estimates are for a final weight of 2,690 lbs, which is between White Zombie (2,348 lbs), and DC Plasma (2,758 lbs).

Thanks very much for the advice re: WarP 13. With that, I'm guessing that the best performance option is a TransWarp 9 + WarP 9 connected together to achieve a sub-3 second 0-60 mph. (Also, could be lighter than the WarP 13) Given that I would have to stack the motors one on top of the other, would you (or anyone) know of any good options to link two motors together in such a fashion?

The only option I have found to date is a kit from Rebirth Auto, but I don't know that much about it.

In terms of budget, I justify it as being less expensive (and hopefully more fun) than a Tesla Model S costs in Canada. Plus, I think it would be a great experience to build an EV.


Thanks for your help!
-RGad
Those are purpose built drag cars, so unless that's what you are going for it's still a tough proposition. More so in the battery, a pair of warp 9's in series with a Zilla 2k EHV would probably get you in the ballpark, but probably not with stacked motors unless you can find a very good belt or just buy the rebirth kit.

If you get that worked out, then you need a lightweight insanely powerful battery. With the demise of A123, Li-Po is probably your only option. You would need a 90-100 cell pack capable of 1500-2000A without too much voltage sag.

I wouldn't put Li-Po in a street car though, unless it's the Kokam cells in White Zombie.

What part of Canada are you in?
 

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I was going to suggest the Warp11HV option that was brought up before...

From what I can tell its one of the best motors out there, high voltage tolerant to allow for a higher-rpm peak power curve (more like traditional ICEs)

Any data on why your motor zorched RW?
 

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I was going to suggest the Warp11HV option that was brought up before...

From what I can tell its one of the best motors out there, high voltage tolerant to allow for a higher-rpm peak power curve (more like traditional ICEs)

Any data on why your motor zorched RW?
Nope, I was running a log on the PL6, but wasn't logging with the Soliton1. I wasn't at "peak power", I've pushed it harder previously, I would guess the RPM's were between 2500-3500 in 3rd gear at or near full throttle. Basically I was driving to a safe place where I can do a 0-60 test. I was driving somewhat aggressively to warm up the battery pack.

On a side note I had changed the brushes a few months earlier from H49's to H60's which produce a very different brush dust which may have contributed to the zorch?
 

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Nope, I was running a log on the PL6, but wasn't logging with the Soliton1. I wasn't at "peak power", I've pushed it harder previously, I would guess the RPM's were between 2500-3500 in 3rd gear at or near full throttle. Basically I was driving to a safe place where I can do a 0-60 test. I was driving somewhat aggressively to warm up the battery pack.

On a side note I had changed the brushes a few months earlier from H49's to H60's which produce a very different brush dust which may have contributed to the zorch?
interesting, do you have forced air cooling? I had always thought that forced air flow/cooling would help prevent the brush dust from accumulating and encouraging arcing....
 

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interesting, do you have forced air cooling? I had always thought that forced air flow/cooling would help prevent the brush dust from accumulating and encouraging arcing....
I was working on a forced air system that I've been testing on the bench, but it wasn't installed yet. I would agree the forced air should help keep the dust down.

The dust from the H49's was was more chalk like, it was a powder that was very black.
The dust from the H60's glistens in the sunlight and seems "lighter" since it would take longer to settle after blowing it out of the motor.

Given the conditions I would guess that brush dust contributed to the zorch.

George Hamstra recommended the T300 brushes in my motor but I already had a replacement set of H60's waiting to go in after others reported better efficiency with them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thanks for all of the help.

Are there any good acceleration calculators out there that take in data from the WarP motors? I spent some time tonight looking through forums and online to find good calculators to compare the expected performance with the WarP 11 vs WarP 9, but didn't have much luck...

RW: My car is in Manitoba - near Winnipeg (a fair distance from you).
=)

Thanks again!
-RGad
 

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Thanks for all of the help.

Are there any good acceleration calculators out there that take in data from the WarP motors? I spent some time tonight looking through forums and online to find good calculators to compare the expected performance with the WarP 11 vs WarP 9, but didn't have much luck...

RW: My car is in Manitoba - near Winnipeg (a fair distance from you).
=)

Thanks again!
-RGad
There have been a few excel based calculators, not necessarily to compare motors but some EV info, one of them may be useful.

The only real data out there is finished builds, so you need to find similar cars with the motors in question.

Don't get hung up on thinking that the motor determines the performance though. It's more like the transmission in a gas car, it must be able to handle the torque/hp/rpm put into it but it doesn't "make" the power like a gas engine does. The main differences between a Warp 9 and 11 are the thermal mass (how much power it can handle long term) and the "gear ratio", both the 9 and 11 will transfer the same amount of power out if the input power is the same. The difference is the 11 develops more torque per amp but less rpm, where the 9 develops less torque per amp but higher rpm, the power is exactly the same. The 11HV is a slightly different beast, because it handles higher voltages, but it's basically just a "higher rpm" transmission.

The battery and controller will determine how much power you have. The controller is a fairly easy choice, since you just increment up power levels. It's an important choice but one of the easier ones.

The battery is what really determines how much power the vehicle has, it's a balance between Voltage/Capacity/C-rate/Voltage sag/Cost/Size/Weight.

Hope that helps.
 

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There have been a few excel based calculators, not necessarily to compare motors but some EV info, one of them may be useful.

The only real data out there is finished builds, so you need to find similar cars with the motors in question.

Don't get hung up on thinking that the motor determines the performance though. It's more like the transmission in a gas car, it must be able to handle the torque/hp/rpm put into it but it doesn't "make" the power like a gas engine does. The main differences between a Warp 9 and 11 are the thermal mass (how much power it can handle long term) and the "gear ratio", both the 9 and 11 will transfer the same amount of power out if the input power is the same. The difference is the 11 develops more torque per amp but less rpm, where the 9 develops less torque per amp but higher rpm, the power is exactly the same. The 11HV is a slightly different beast, because it handles higher voltages, but it's basically just a "higher rpm" transmission.

The battery and controller will determine how much power you have. The controller is a fairly easy choice, since you just increment up power levels. It's an important choice but one of the easier ones.

The battery is what really determines how much power the vehicle has, it's a balance between Voltage/Capacity/C-rate/Voltage sag/Cost/Size/Weight.

Hope that helps.
nicely put, that's wiki-material....
 

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I am also wounding about this

how ever I am wanting to make use off all the extra torque and use a gear box to create rpm at the wheels


for Drag Race application

at a quick glance


Warp 9 car weight 3600, 1633kg (Twin 7200 , 3266kg )

Weight 143, 65kg (Twin 286 , 130kg )
Torque @ 1000A 237,321 ( singe motor )
Norm RPM 3300
MAX RPM 5500

Warp 13 car weight 7000, 3175 kg
Weight 367, 136kg
Torque @ 1000A (ft-lbs, Nm) 440,597
Norm RPM 3000 ( normal engine RPM 100km speed limit here in AU )
MAX RPM 5500

how much torque would the twin have ( would it be double a single ? )


it looks like a twin 9" is a winner at 6 kg lighter motor
is it possible to run only 1x motor and switch on the second when wanting to race ? or would it be just as efficaint to run both so the other motor is not opposing
( I was thinking of driving car to race strip towing a trailer full off batteries for distance :p )

and maybe only having capasitors inside the car
( only need 1 min worth of power if that )
and change banks after each race

personally I wanted 1 motor per wheel but could not find anything with high RPM with enougth torque to do it

so after higher torque and ger box combination

also noticed this for around $8k

HPEVS Dual AC-35 Brushless Motor Kit - 144 Volt
Motor Diameter: 8.9 Inches
Motor Case Length: 19.8 Inches
Motor Shaft Length End to End: 24.1 Inches
Motor Type: AC Induction
Brushes: No
Interpoles: No
Weight: 68 Kg
Max Voltage Input: 171
Terminal Stud Size: 3/8 Inch
Integrated Sensors: Encoder
Rated Torque: 190 Lb Ft
Rated Power: 165 HP
Continuos RPM: 5,000
Max RPM: 10,000
RPM Sensor: No
Drive End Shaft: 1 1/8 Inch With 1/4 Inch Keyway
Acc/Commutator End Shaft: Optional 7/8 Inch With 3/16 Keyway
Timing: N/A
Max Efficiency: 88%
Thermal Cooling: Internal Fan
Max Temperature: 180 Degrees Celsius (356 Degrees Fahrenheit)
Matching Dual Controllers Included In Price: 1230-8501 Curtis Controller
Warranty Period: 2 Years

*edit *
cheers for the reply
dougingraham

with out stealing this thread

maybe I should stick to my original idea of 4x Direct wheel drive motors
if my math is right wheel RPM x circumference / 1056 (inches to miles per hr conversion )
with stock street tires should have an exit speed off
74 inch wheel circumference 3000 RMP 210 MPH 338 KMH ?
 

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MasterCATZ,

Two motors is going to be exactly twice the torque of a single motor assuming the batteries can deliver twice the current.

Capacitors cannot be a substitute for batteries in a drag race at this time. There just is not enough energy storage per unit of volume.

The HPEVS system is pretty neat. However the limiting factor is the Curtis controllers. The dual setup is twice the power of a single. But this is only because there are two controllers. To get the power levels you need for drag racing you would want two of these setups minimum (that is four controllers). The dual AC-35 arrangement is similar in power to a single warp9 motor. Not quite as much torque but higher HP due to the wider usable RPM band. If you look at the HPEVS motors using the Curtis controllers you find that they all produce about the same power, they just need different gearing and this is because the 144v Curtis does 500 amps so is limited to about 72kw. The 96v Curtis can do 650 amps so that one limits you to about 62kw. The higher current gives 30% more torque but that torque gives up at a lower RPM.

HPEVS needs a higher voltage and current controller in the worst way to take advantage of the motors they are making.

The best bang for the buck today is dual WarP 9's with dual 2000 amp controllers. And a battery pack that will produce that 4000 amps without sagging below 200 volts and not weighing a ton. The battery is going to be the trick. With a setup like that you would most likely see near 1000 ft-lbs and peak horsepower of 600 (for the few seconds until the motors melted down).
 

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My uni has a supercap drag car.

It can do 1/4 mile, but is probably a faction of the weight of a street legal vehicle, and don't expect to drive it to the line or back to the pits.
What is a uni?

I am interested, any links where I can read more about it?
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
What is a uni?
Uni = University - In this case, I'm guessing this supercapacitor is somewhere in Texas???


Seriously - big thanks to everyone for all of the help & suggestions - especially RWAudio.

I think I was on the stray path chasing dual 9s or a 13. Keeping it simple seems like good advice, and I heed your advice on the battery being much more important than the motors.

I think the dual WarP 9's connection and series/parallel contactors are too complicated for a first time build, and Smoke Screen (GE 13" motor) doesn't seem that versatile of a vehicle (and from what I could tell, geared very strangely with high voltage).

I read CroDriver's entire build thread, RWAudio's blog, and Joey's Porsche 911 blog. I have absorbed a lot of learning, and even more inspiration.
:)


I am now leaning towards either a TransWarp 11, or TransWarp 11HV with direct drive - likely 4.11:1 ratio or higher, as I never really need to go much over 60 mph (it's the journey from 0-60 MPH that interests me). :D

I'm hoping the higher gear ratio provides two benefits:
  1. A faster 0-60 time
  2. Lighter load on the WarP 11 (Netgain recommends a maximum weight of 2200 lbs for direct drive applications - I'm estimating 2475 lbs for my converted weight with a single WarP 11)
I like the idea of the additional torque from the standard TransWarP 11, and lighter battery pack at the lower voltage for the non-HV version. The car gets heavy (and expensive) if I try to build a suitable battery LiFePo battery pack for the TransWarP 11 HV.

For batteries, I'm thinking 56 x Winston LFP100AHA (100 Ah each), which have a burst of 20C, giving 2000 A, to match a Z2K. The spec for LFP100AHA shows a max burst of 20C for 5 seconds in one minute, which I would hope would be enough time to get close to 60 mph?

Any thoughts / advice?
 

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I am now leaning towards either a TransWarp 11, or TransWarp 11HV with direct drive - likely 4.11:1 ratio or higher, as I never really need to go much over 60 mph (it's the journey from 0-60 MPH that interests me). :D

I'm hoping the higher gear ratio provides two benefits:
  1. A faster 0-60 time
  2. Lighter load on the WarP 11 (Netgain recommends a maximum weight of 2200 lbs for direct drive applications - I'm estimating 2475 lbs for my converted weight with a single WarP 11)
I like the idea of the additional torque from the standard TransWarP 11, and lighter battery pack at the lower voltage for the non-HV version. The car gets heavy (and expensive) if I try to build a suitable battery LiFePo battery pack for the TransWarP 11 HV.

For batteries, I'm thinking 56 x Winston LFP100AHA (100 Ah each), which have a burst of 20C, giving 2000 A, to match a Z2K. The spec for LFP100AHA shows a max burst of 20C for 5 seconds in one minute, which I would hope would be enough time to get close to 60 mph?

Any thoughts / advice?
If you are going to drive this on the street the recommendations are different than if you are just going to drag race it. You really need to set your goals and your budget.

I am around an 8 second 0-60 with a single warp 9 and 51 cells in a 2400 lb car with the motor current limited to 700 amps. I still have a transmission and I generally use 2nd (8.67:1) to start out and 3rd (5.6:1) around town and 4th (3.91:1) on the interstate. For street driving this is just a really pleasant amount of power. If I turn up the current limit to 1000 amps I would never bother to use 2nd but I feel that this is hard on the motor. I think I would see close to a 6 sec 0-60 with the current at 1000 amps.

For a first build I would suggest a single motor, keep a transmission of some kind. Use a pack voltage that when sagged at 1000 amps will stay above the max motor voltage. With the WarP9 and the Helwig H60 brushes this would be 192 volts. This would give an unsagged nominal voltage of about 220 which is 69 cells. Max voltage off the charge would be 234.6. Use 100 ah Calb cells so you can load them to 1000 amps. You limit the voltage the motor sees with the motor controller. From what you have said I think your choices for controllers are really limited to Soliton 1, Zilla 1KHV (or 2KHV) or the NetGain that does the high voltage and high current. With this setup on a 2500 lb car I would expect to see a brand new pack max range of around 88 miles and a reasonable range of 60 miles for long battery life over the life of the pack.

If you are only going to drag race that voltage and controller recommendation stands but you would use a smaller pack of more exotic and fragile cells.
 
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If you are going to drive this on the street the recommendations are different than if you are just going to drag race it. You really need to set your goals and your budget.

I am around an 8 second 0-60 with a single warp 9 and 51 cells in a 2400 lb car with the motor current limited to 700 amps. I still have a transmission and I generally use 2nd (8.67:1) to start out and 3rd (5.6:1) around town and 4th (3.91:1) on the interstate. For street driving this is just a really pleasant amount of power. If I turn up the current limit to 1000 amps I would never bother to use 2nd but I feel that this is hard on the motor. I think I would see close to a 6 sec 0-60 with the current at 1000 amps.

For a first build I would suggest a single motor, keep a transmission of some kind. Use a pack voltage that when sagged at 1000 amps will stay above the max motor voltage. With the WarP9 and the Helwig H60 brushes this would be 192 volts. This would give an unsagged nominal voltage of about 220 which is 69 cells. Max voltage off the charge would be 234.6. Use 100 ah Calb cells so you can load them to 1000 amps. You limit the voltage the motor sees with the motor controller. From what you have said I think your choices for controllers are really limited to Soliton 1, Zilla 1KHV (or 2KHV) or the NetGain that does the high voltage and high current. With this setup on a 2500 lb car I would expect to see a brand new pack max range of around 88 miles and a reasonable range of 60 miles for long battery life over the life of the pack.

If you are only going to drag race that voltage and controller recommendation stands but you would use a smaller pack of more exotic and fragile cells.
+1000 great post
 

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Uni = University - In this case, I'm guessing this supercapacitor is somewhere in Texas???


Seriously - big thanks to everyone for all of the help & suggestions - especially RWAudio.

I think I was on the stray path chasing dual 9s or a 13. Keeping it simple seems like good advice, and I heed your advice on the battery being much more important than the motors.

I think the dual WarP 9's connection and series/parallel contactors are too complicated for a first time build, and Smoke Screen (GE 13" motor) doesn't seem that versatile of a vehicle (and from what I could tell, geared very strangely with high voltage).

I read CroDriver's entire build thread, RWAudio's blog, and Joey's Porsche 911 blog. I have absorbed a lot of learning, and even more inspiration.
:)


I am now leaning towards either a TransWarp 11, or TransWarp 11HV with direct drive - likely 4.11:1 ratio or higher, as I never really need to go much over 60 mph (it's the journey from 0-60 MPH that interests me). :D

I'm hoping the higher gear ratio provides two benefits:
  1. A faster 0-60 time
  2. Lighter load on the WarP 11 (Netgain recommends a maximum weight of 2200 lbs for direct drive applications - I'm estimating 2475 lbs for my converted weight with a single WarP 11)
I like the idea of the additional torque from the standard TransWarP 11, and lighter battery pack at the lower voltage for the non-HV version. The car gets heavy (and expensive) if I try to build a suitable battery LiFePo battery pack for the TransWarP 11 HV.

For batteries, I'm thinking 56 x Winston LFP100AHA (100 Ah each), which have a burst of 20C, giving 2000 A, to match a Z2K. The spec for LFP100AHA shows a max burst of 20C for 5 seconds in one minute, which I would hope would be enough time to get close to 60 mph?

Any thoughts / advice?
Glad to hear you are catching on, many things related to electric vehicles go against what we are familiar with in ICE vehicles. I would agree with others in saying keep a transmission even if it's a 2 speed powerglide or similar. Direct drive on a DC motor means you need to swap polarity to go in reverse, which means you now need multiple contactors in the motor loop capable of handling that 2000A.

As for the battery choice I highly recommend you use data sheet specs to narrow your search and find the top 2-3 cells that would work for you, then buy one or two of each and test them. Winston's look good on paper, but I would put them up against CALB CA100's and see what happens. The "data sheet" info on CALB makes them look inferior, however in my testing they are the best prismatic around.

Winstons won't do 20C for any length of time reliably and voltage sag at that load would be massive. CALB won't do 20C either, for that you would need some type of Li-PO or other Li-ion cell.

If you want 2000A out of a prismatic I would go CALB CA180.

Good luck!
 
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