that's 958 hp , can you imagine putting that to the ground , the suspension and full roll cage would need to be like those custom 4x4 rally cars .
Wayland's 350Mile per Charge Honda Insight BEV
Heads up here comes Silver Streak:
See Link for details.
Crazy Highlights.
John Wayland's Gen-1 Honda Insight is being rebuilt for long range BEV. 350 Miles per charge at highway speeds of 55 to 70 MPH.
71.5 kwh battery rated for up to 715 kw of discharge power.
He is expecting to get about ~5 Miles per kwh over the 350 mile run.
He is considering weather to go with a 100 kw or 200 kw motor controller / Inverter and drive motor.
That's crazy ... but I look forward to reading more about it as the story unfolds.
See Link for details.
Crazy Highlights.
John Wayland's Gen-1 Honda Insight is being rebuilt for long range BEV. 350 Miles per charge at highway speeds of 55 to 70 MPH.
71.5 kwh battery rated for up to 715 kw of discharge power.
He is expecting to get about ~5 Miles per kwh over the 350 mile run.
He is considering weather to go with a 100 kw or 200 kw motor controller / Inverter and drive motor.
That's crazy ... but I look forward to reading more about it as the story unfolds.
1 - 20 of 86 Posts
It say's a 200KW controller, he's building a range car not another dragger!that's 958 hp , can you imagine putting that to the ground , the suspension and full roll cage would need to be like those custom 4x4 rally cars .
Nice. I like the plan for Blue Meanie too. Wayland really is an asset to the EV community. I couldn't take the "style" of communication between the guys on the NEDRA boards, but have the utmost respect for what Wayland does on asphalt, cement, and salt... ((thumbs-up))
I'm hoping he'll add "salt" to that list. With 200 kW and great aerodynamics the Insight would be a respectable Salt Flats car.
Nice. I like the plan for Blue Meanie too. Wayland really is an asset to the EV community. I couldn't take the "style" of communication between the guys on the NEDRA boards, but have the utmost respect for what Wayland does on asphalt, cement, and sand... ((thumbs-up))
Actually, I meant to say salt not sand - I was referring to the land speed bike...I'm hoping he'll add "salt" to that list. With 200 kW and great aerodynamics the Insight would be a respectable Salt Flats car.
I edited my post.I've been reading his blog posts as well and I'm very interested to see the outcomes of these new projects of his.
I didn't say he was . that's what battery pack can do(10xC) 715 KW or 958 hp .It say's a 200KW controller, he's building a range car not another dragger!
10C discharge peaks is small compared to the 40C discharge peaks he used in the Zombie.I didn't say he was . that's what battery pack can do(10xC) 715 KW or 958 hp .
715kw from batteries would probably at best only give you about ~640kw to the wheels ... still crazy high amount of peak power ... even if he wanted to make it into a drag racer ... he would need some crazy modifications to keep the tires from just spinning out with that kind of power being put down ... and allot of those kinds of modifications would seriously hurt his range goals.
Thinking of crazy uses for that kind of ~600kw of electrical power leads me to lasers... Here is a high power laser diode that can do 500kw to 2MW and is itself only 22x26x8 cm... granted each laser blast only lasts a maximum of 1ns , but still part of me finds it funny... or a Tesla Coil for the car shows... but no ... we want something 'practical' like driving for 350 miles in 1 charge.
my thoughts are more related to battery sizing and chemistry. I just cant envision any room in the vehicle except for battery storage
I'm not sure what 75Ah cells he refers to ... The closest cells I found on the Dow Kokam web site are:
SLPB-60460330H
70Ah
3.7V Nominal
2C Max Charge Rate
5C max continuous Discharge rate
10C max peak pulse discharge rate
between 1.87 kg and 2.03 kg each
5.8 mm ( +/- 0.3 ) x 455 mm ( +/-2.0 ) x 325 mm ( +/- 2.0 )
Bewteen ~0.802978 Liters to ~0.9115779 Liters each
Between ~138.5 Wh / kg and ~127.5 Wh / kg
Between ~322.5 wh / L and ~284.1 Wh / L
Wayne listed 258 cells in a 3P86S format.
between 1,152 lbs and 1,061 lbs just for batteries + Connections + box + etc.
~208 Liters to ~236 Liters + connections + Box + etc.
If just the batteries were all in one tight mass it could be as small as ~60cm x ~60cm x ~60cm ... or
~23.6 Inches x ~23.6 Inches x ~23.6 Inches.
He listed 318V, 225 ah, 71.5 kWh ...
but the cells spec sheets I could find look more like it would be 318.2V , 210 Ah , ~66.8 kwh.
At 80% DoD ( ~53.4 kwh usable ) that means he needs to average about ~6.5 miles per kwh to make the 350 mile trip in one charge... that will be hard at 55+ MPH highway speeds , including the extra several hundred pounds of weight he is adding to the vehicle.
If he does have 75 Ah cells at 80% DoD that gives him ~57.2 kwh usable of the 71.5 ... which would still need more than ~6.1 miles per kwh at those 55+ MPH highway speeds including the extra several hundered pounds of weight he is adding.
Sounds tight / a close call to me... may or may not make it... will be interesting to see what is average speed ends up being and how much energy he does end up using.
With the Rear IMA area gutted , spare tire removed, and rear cargo area ... all combined there might just be enough space to make it still look near OEM from the top with the rear IMA hatch cover down ... I would expect him to split up the battery pack though ... putting some in the front, not only for space but to distribute the weight.
- - - - - - - -
Considering the goal of ~350 Miles ... I think his desire to use 10C discharge rated cells is an error better suited for the drag strip and less so for this specific application.
We won't be able to use that much discharge rate ... and he could have done better than ~138 wh / kg with other types of cells... even if they don't have the 10C discharge rate.
At 100 kw he won't even be pulling 2C ... and even 200 kw won't be over 3C for a 70+ kwh pack.
A Tesla-ish style pack with modern 18650 cells each over 200 wh / kg would have given him significantly more energy ( ~100 kwh ) in the same weight ... or shaved off a chunk of weight for the same capacity.
But I still look forward to see how it comes out... he has done nice work in the past.
SLPB-60460330H
70Ah
3.7V Nominal
2C Max Charge Rate
5C max continuous Discharge rate
10C max peak pulse discharge rate
between 1.87 kg and 2.03 kg each
5.8 mm ( +/- 0.3 ) x 455 mm ( +/-2.0 ) x 325 mm ( +/- 2.0 )
Bewteen ~0.802978 Liters to ~0.9115779 Liters each
Between ~138.5 Wh / kg and ~127.5 Wh / kg
Between ~322.5 wh / L and ~284.1 Wh / L
Wayne listed 258 cells in a 3P86S format.
between 1,152 lbs and 1,061 lbs just for batteries + Connections + box + etc.
~208 Liters to ~236 Liters + connections + Box + etc.
If just the batteries were all in one tight mass it could be as small as ~60cm x ~60cm x ~60cm ... or
~23.6 Inches x ~23.6 Inches x ~23.6 Inches.
He listed 318V, 225 ah, 71.5 kWh ...
but the cells spec sheets I could find look more like it would be 318.2V , 210 Ah , ~66.8 kwh.
At 80% DoD ( ~53.4 kwh usable ) that means he needs to average about ~6.5 miles per kwh to make the 350 mile trip in one charge... that will be hard at 55+ MPH highway speeds , including the extra several hundred pounds of weight he is adding to the vehicle.
If he does have 75 Ah cells at 80% DoD that gives him ~57.2 kwh usable of the 71.5 ... which would still need more than ~6.1 miles per kwh at those 55+ MPH highway speeds including the extra several hundered pounds of weight he is adding.
Sounds tight / a close call to me... may or may not make it... will be interesting to see what is average speed ends up being and how much energy he does end up using.
They will eat allot of space ... but if he plans it out carefully , he might be able to make it look nearly OEM and still have 2 full seats and the area above the rear flat OEM IMA cover... from the outside it might not look that different from an OEM Gen-1 Insight.my thoughts are more related to battery sizing and chemistry. I just cant envision any room in the vehicle except for battery storage
With the Rear IMA area gutted , spare tire removed, and rear cargo area ... all combined there might just be enough space to make it still look near OEM from the top with the rear IMA hatch cover down ... I would expect him to split up the battery pack though ... putting some in the front, not only for space but to distribute the weight.
- - - - - - - -
Considering the goal of ~350 Miles ... I think his desire to use 10C discharge rated cells is an error better suited for the drag strip and less so for this specific application.
We won't be able to use that much discharge rate ... and he could have done better than ~138 wh / kg with other types of cells... even if they don't have the 10C discharge rate.
At 100 kw he won't even be pulling 2C ... and even 200 kw won't be over 3C for a 70+ kwh pack.
A Tesla-ish style pack with modern 18650 cells each over 200 wh / kg would have given him significantly more energy ( ~100 kwh ) in the same weight ... or shaved off a chunk of weight for the same capacity.
But I still look forward to see how it comes out... he has done nice work in the past.
Damn it! All that work he is doing to the Insight and to the Blue Meanie is so damn interesting, I wish I had his resources or lived closer to him, I would donate my hours free of charge just to learn and be part of that!Heads up here comes Silver Streak:
See Link for details.
Crazy Highlights.
John Wayland's Gen-1 Honda Insight is being rebuilt for long range BEV. 350 Miles per charge at highway speeds of 55 to 70 MPH.
71.5 kwh battery rated for up to 715 kw of discharge power.
He is expecting to get about ~5 Miles per kwh over the 350 mile run.
He is considering weather to go with a 100 kw or 200 kw motor controller / Inverter and drive motor.
That's crazy ... but I look forward to reading more about it as the story unfolds.
I have to think of ways to raise funds/sponsorship to do a build like that!
Anyone have any ways? Grants?
Nice post.
One question though.
Which battery is being used here?
I mean the company that manufactures that battery.
I have a project in the works which im working on my self.
Very hush hush | top secret.
One question though.
Which battery is being used here?
I mean the company that manufactures that battery.
I have a project in the works which im working on my self.
Very hush hush | top secret.
My bet is over 250 w/ kg battery custom pack .
In the initial report from Wayne it was indicated a 75Ah cell from Kokam was being used.Nice post.
One question though.
Which battery is being used here?
I mean the company that manufactures that battery.
I have a project in the works which im working on my self.
Very hush hush | top secret.
The closest match I could find on Kokam's site is a 70Ah rated cell ( SLPB-60460330H ) ... the specs on the 70Ah cell and link are in previous post.
Wow, Wayland has been busy.
The Insight is a pretty 'slippery' car, so he'd be hard-pressed to find a better donor to start with.
The Insight is a pretty 'slippery' car, so he'd be hard-pressed to find a better donor to start with.
Hello Everyone,I'm not sure what 75Ah cells he refers to ... The closest cells I found on the Dow Kokam web site are:
SLPB-60460330H
70Ah
3.7V Nominal
2C Max Charge Rate
5C max continuous Discharge rate
10C max peak pulse discharge rate
between 1.87 kg and 2.03 kg each
5.8 mm ( +/- 0.3 ) x 455 mm ( +/-2.0 ) x 325 mm ( +/- 2.0 )
Bewteen ~0.802978 Liters to ~0.9115779 Liters each
Between ~138.5 Wh / kg and ~127.5 Wh / kg
Between ~322.5 wh / L and ~284.1 Wh / L
Wayne listed 258 cells in a 3P86S format.
between 1,152 lbs and 1,061 lbs just for batteries + Connections + box + etc.
~208 Liters to ~236 Liters + connections + Box + etc.
If just the batteries were all in one tight mass it could be as small as ~60cm x ~60cm x ~60cm ... or
~23.6 Inches x ~23.6 Inches x ~23.6 Inches.
He listed 318V, 225 ah, 71.5 kWh ...
but the cells spec sheets I could find look more like it would be 318.2V , 210 Ah , ~66.8 kwh.
At 80% DoD ( ~53.4 kwh usable ) that means he needs to average about ~6.5 miles per kwh to make the 350 mile trip in one charge... that will be hard at 55+ MPH highway speeds , including the extra several hundred pounds of weight he is adding to the vehicle.
If he does have 75 Ah cells at 80% DoD that gives him ~57.2 kwh usable of the 71.5 ... which would still need more than ~6.1 miles per kwh at those 55+ MPH highway speeds including the extra several hundered pounds of weight he is adding.
Sounds tight / a close call to me... may or may not make it... will be interesting to see what is average speed ends up being and how much energy he does end up using.
They will eat allot of space ... but if he plans it out carefully , he might be able to make it look nearly OEM and still have 2 full seats and the area above the rear flat OEM IMA cover... from the outside it might not look that different from an OEM Gen-1 Insight.
With the Rear IMA area gutted , spare tire removed, and rear cargo area ... all combined there might just be enough space to make it still look near OEM from the top with the rear IMA hatch cover down ... I would expect him to split up the battery pack though ... putting some in the front, not only for space but to distribute the weight.
- - - - - - - -
Considering the goal of ~350 Miles ... I think his desire to use 10C discharge rated cells is an error better suited for the drag strip and less so for this specific application.
We won't be able to use that much discharge rate ... and he could have done better than ~138 wh / kg with other types of cells... even if they don't have the 10C discharge rate.
At 100 kw he won't even be pulling 2C ... and even 200 kw won't be over 3C for a 70+ kwh pack.
A Tesla-ish style pack with modern 18650 cells each over 200 wh / kg would have given him significantly more energy ( ~100 kwh ) in the same weight ... or shaved off a chunk of weight for the same capacity.
But I still look forward to see how it comes out... he has done nice work in the past.
The cells I am using, like other cells I get from Kokam, are not listed on their site. They are indeed 75 ah cells, not 70 ah as some have assumed. Another incorrect assumption I've seen here, is that they have to be limited to an 80% DOD - not true with these hi pro cells, tested at 100% DOD for more than 1400 cycles with 87% capacity afterwards! I intend to take them to 100% DOD on my long range trips, and even at that the cells will still have juice left, as like my experience so far has been, Kokam is very conservative in their capacity ratings...these cells are really more like 76-77 ah. As to the choice of cells and opinions here that I should have used other types, higher energy, or that I have 'errored' in the choice of using 10C type cells, etc....when you are being 'given' a large amount of new LiPol cells, you 'don't' complain and you do the best with what you have been fortunate to have been given. I would have prefered a certain model cell that is very high energy with low power density, as the AC drive will not ever use the kind of power density the car will have in reserve, but again, you take what comes your way, then do your best to do remarkable things with what you have to work with.
To sum it up, despite all the armchair analysis here, Silver Streak will indeed, have a fully accessible 71.5 kWh pack...it will only consume about 185 Wh per mile @ 65 mph, and at 65 mph on average, it should consume ~ 65 kWh to travel 350 miles.
At 55 moph on average, the car will top 400 miles per charge.
See Ya...John Wayland
Good to see you post John. Can't wait for updates on this project and the upgrades to Blue Meanie
Thanks for taking on the project ... I love it.To sum it up, despite all the armchair analysis here, Silver Streak will indeed, have a fully accessible 71.5 kWh pack...it will only consume about 185 Wh per mile @ 65 mph, and at 65 mph on average, it should consume ~ 65 kWh to travel 350 miles. At 55 moph on average, the car will top 400 miles per charge.
See Ya...John Wayland
Thanks for the additional information and clarifications.
I'm curious about What method did you use to determine the 185 wh / mile @ 65 MPH?
When I think about the OEM weight and aerodynamics 71.5 kwh @ an average of ~65 MPH it seems to need about ~85% efficiency from the battery to wheels to achieve ~350 miles even at 100% DoD... even with no head wind, and no slope ... which might be doable , but tight ... between controller losses , motor losses, etc.
The conversion reads like it will be several hundred pound increase to the vehicle weight ... every ~18 pounds of additional weight will increase the rolling resistance by ~1%.
So I am curious about what the additional detail is that I am missing ... is the Aerodynamics being improved during the conversion? ... Is a good bit of the vehicle being stripped down to bare bones to be able to reduce the negative impact of the weight of that many batteries? ... or something else?
are dow kokam selling batteries to diyers?
it seems strange that they would poor money into john's project then not sell their product to other garage converters.
their site seems to talk for paragraphs about how "amazing" their product is, but there is no information on price.
it seems strange that they would poor money into john's project then not sell their product to other garage converters.
their site seems to talk for paragraphs about how "amazing"
their product is, but there is no information on price.1 - 20 of 86 Posts
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