Wayland's 350Mile per Charge Honda Insight BEV

64269 Views 85 Replies 29 Participants Last post by rochesterricer, Feb 14, 2013

IamIan

Discussion Starter · Mar 18, 2011

Heads up here comes Silver Streak:
See Link for details.

Crazy Highlights.

John Wayland's Gen-1 Honda Insight is being rebuilt for long range BEV. 350 Miles per charge at highway speeds of 55 to 70 MPH.

71.5 kwh battery rated for up to 715 kw of discharge power.
He is expecting to get about ~5 Miles per kwh over the 350 mile run.

He is considering weather to go with a 100 kw or 200 kw motor controller / Inverter and drive motor.

That's crazy ... but I look forward to reading more about it as the story unfolds.

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John Wayland

· #17 · Apr 18, 2011

IamIan said:
I'm not sure what 75Ah cells he refers to ... The closest cells I found on the Dow Kokam web site are:

SLPB-60460330H
70Ah
3.7V Nominal
2C Max Charge Rate
5C max continuous Discharge rate
10C max peak pulse discharge rate
between 1.87 kg and 2.03 kg each
5.8 mm ( +/- 0.3 ) x 455 mm ( +/-2.0 ) x 325 mm ( +/- 2.0 )
Bewteen ~0.802978 Liters to ~0.9115779 Liters each
Between ~138.5 Wh / kg and ~127.5 Wh / kg
Between ~322.5 wh / L and ~284.1 Wh / L

Wayne listed 258 cells in a 3P86S format.
between 1,152 lbs and 1,061 lbs just for batteries + Connections + box + etc.

~208 Liters to ~236 Liters + connections + Box + etc.
If just the batteries were all in one tight mass it could be as small as ~60cm x ~60cm x ~60cm ... or
~23.6 Inches x ~23.6 Inches x ~23.6 Inches.

He listed 318V, 225 ah, 71.5 kWh ...
but the cells spec sheets I could find look more like it would be 318.2V , 210 Ah , ~66.8 kwh.

At 80% DoD ( ~53.4 kwh usable ) that means he needs to average about ~6.5 miles per kwh to make the 350 mile trip in one charge... that will be hard at 55+ MPH highway speeds , including the extra several hundred pounds of weight he is adding to the vehicle.

If he does have 75 Ah cells at 80% DoD that gives him ~57.2 kwh usable of the 71.5 ... which would still need more than ~6.1 miles per kwh at those 55+ MPH highway speeds including the extra several hundered pounds of weight he is adding.

Sounds tight / a close call to me... may or may not make it... will be interesting to see what is average speed ends up being and how much energy he does end up using.

They will eat allot of space ... but if he plans it out carefully , he might be able to make it look nearly OEM and still have 2 full seats and the area above the rear flat OEM IMA cover... from the outside it might not look that different from an OEM Gen-1 Insight.

With the Rear IMA area gutted , spare tire removed, and rear cargo area ... all combined there might just be enough space to make it still look near OEM from the top with the rear IMA hatch cover down ... I would expect him to split up the battery pack though ... putting some in the front, not only for space but to distribute the weight.

- - - - - - - -

Considering the goal of ~350 Miles ... I think his desire to use 10C discharge rated cells is an error better suited for the drag strip and less so for this specific application.

We won't be able to use that much discharge rate ... and he could have done better than ~138 wh / kg with other types of cells... even if they don't have the 10C discharge rate.

At 100 kw he won't even be pulling 2C ... and even 200 kw won't be over 3C for a 70+ kwh pack.

A Tesla-ish style pack with modern 18650 cells each over 200 wh / kg would have given him significantly more energy ( ~100 kwh ) in the same weight ... or shaved off a chunk of weight for the same capacity.

But I still look forward to see how it comes out... he has done nice work in the past.

Hello Everyone,

The cells I am using, like other cells I get from Kokam, are not listed on their site. They are indeed 75 ah cells, not 70 ah as some have assumed. Another incorrect assumption I've seen here, is that they have to be limited to an 80% DOD - not true with these hi pro cells, tested at 100% DOD for more than 1400 cycles with 87% capacity afterwards! I intend to take them to 100% DOD on my long range trips, and even at that the cells will still have juice left, as like my experience so far has been, Kokam is very conservative in their capacity ratings...these cells are really more like 76-77 ah. As to the choice of cells and opinions here that I should have used other types, higher energy, or that I have 'errored' in the choice of using 10C type cells, etc....when you are being 'given' a large amount of new LiPol cells, you 'don't' complain and you do the best with what you have been fortunate to have been given. I would have prefered a certain model cell that is very high energy with low power density, as the AC drive will not ever use the kind of power density the car will have in reserve, but again, you take what comes your way, then do your best to do remarkable things with what you have to work with.

To sum it up, despite all the armchair analysis here, Silver Streak will indeed, have a fully accessible 71.5 kWh pack...it will only consume about 185 Wh per mile @ 65 mph, and at 65 mph on average, it should consume ~ 65 kWh to travel 350 miles.
At 55 moph on average, the car will top 400 miles per charge.

See Ya...John Wayland

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John Wayland

· #23 · Apr 20, 2011

Hello Everyone,

The Tesla does 245 miles on its 53 kWh pack - that's 216 Wh per mile. If the Kokam pack's 71.5 kWh was on board the Tesla, it would cover 331 miles. The Tesla's .31 cd makes it an areodynamic brack compared to the Insight's .25 cd., plus the Tesla pushes fat 225 section non LRR tires, too...this explains why it uses 216 Wh per mile. The EV1 was more areo than the Insight and achieved 167 Wh Wh per mile @ 65 mph and could travel up to 160 miles on 26.7 kWh (I personally got 145 miles range when I drove NiMH powered EV1s). My converted Insight will weigh about 200 lbs. less than the EV1, has the same efficient motor and just as efficent inverter, and has the exact size LRR tires and light weight wheels, so it will easily roll down the highway, only not quite as slippery as the EV1.

I am very good at building EVs that require very little juice to roll along (and go like stink) - Blue Meanie is a great example and gets very good range on very little kWh. With its lead acid pack at just 7.9 kWh it did ~40 miles @ 55 mph for about 185 Wh per mile. The Insight is far more areo than the 1200 but less than the EV1, thus the 185 Wh per mile @ 65 mph projected efficiency.

It's pretty well covered at 'Wayland's Words'.

See Ya...John Wayland

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John Wayland

· #41 · May 2, 2011

Hello Everyone.

From CroDriver:

>Who would buy a Insight-like car with 50.000$ worth battery cells...

No one, of course. However, accomplishing something everyday folks can relate to, such as traveling between two physically large states between two major cities nearly 200 miles apart, in 'an electric car' at posted speed limits proves - it 'can' be done. The logical conversation then moves to 'as battery tech improves and costs go down, you could soon be driving a family sedan that does 300 miles.

>or a Datsun like car which is great for a 1/4 mile but sucks pretty much everywhere >else (try to go on a highway with a direct drive DC motor)

CroDriver, maybe you need to see my post under the drag Bug thread...82 miles on the open highway with 30% battery left, direct drive DC motors hand-touch warm, under 200 Wh per mile, 0-60 in 1.8 and 10.2 1/4 mile.

See Ya...John Wayland

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John Wayland

· #59 · Sep 30, 2011

Hello to All,

Thanks for the interest. Yes, the flat shape of the cells certainly helps
in the 'find places to put all of them' department! To be honest, it's quite a challenge to find the space for 985 ls. of cells - which when installed including the actually module cases, conductors, and BMS will be 1080 lbs.

I 'had' wanted to simply make three, 318V, 75 ah rectangular batteries, 86 cells in each. These 75 ah cells are larger than the 30 ah cells used in the Zombie, and so they are thicker at ~ 1/2", thus 86 of them stacked in a row takes up ~43", so call the box 43.5" long. There is not a single area in the Insight, other than doing a ticky-tacky just fill the hatch area thing, where a rectangular box 11" wide, 12" tall, and 43.5" long can fit.

The other issue is weight balance, a priority so the car will handle very well, even though it will be about 1000 lbs. heavier than stock! Properly balanced and with new suspension pieces and light but strong bracing, the car will drive well. Improperly balanced, it would be a nightmare!

With the above considerations then, I've decided on 11 modules, 10 of them identical with an 11th one holding fewer cells and thus being a little smaller and lighter. Each module will be a flat-shaped rectangle that can be mounted either vertically or horizontally. The modules will be ~ 5" thick x ~12" tall x ~ 32" long, and will contain a 3P8S cell arrangement.
Doing it this way drops the BMS board count to 1/3 the number required for three separate 318V BIG batteries. Visualize 8 cells stacked on top of each other with two identical stack on each side. Each stack is in series to get 29.6V @ 75 ah, and going from left to right, each cell layer is paralleled, for 3 cells in parallel. A central-mounted RegDeck board & BMS will be connected to all three stacks. Each of these 24 cell flat modules will be 29.6V @ 225 ah, with the 11th module being an 18 cell 22.2V @ 225 ah. Total pack is 318V.2V @ 225 ah for 71.6 kWh.

With modules shaped like this, I can squeeze 3 under the hood (one laying flat, two standing vertically) without blocking the view of the rare EV1 AC motor with the gorgeous Rinehart Motion Systems inverter mounted with it - in addition to performance, presentation is very important. The other 8 will go midship both in the now empty IMA chamber below the hatch deck area, and underneath it where the gas tank was - all of it a very tight fit, all of it not yet all worked out and finalized.

If it does work out, the competition grade sound system will go right back where it was, though it will now tilt up and away for battery module access and presentation.

I invite everyone to visit the 'Wayland's Words' section of my website to follow this project - the current posting has photos to go along with the story.

See Ya...John Wayland

<http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/blog/>

coulombKid said:
If you look at the parts of the current White Zombie cells the Dow cells are more like envelopes and can be stuffed into a lot of spaces prizmatics cannot. They would also lend themselves well to an under the car belly pan pack like is going under the new Tesla-S. Spread em out too much and connections weight will go up though. Weird side thought. My car needs a belly pan to clean up the aerodynamics. What if I raised it up a little and......

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John Wayland

· #74 · Feb 19, 2012

gor said:
true, winter - not best time for best results
especially if you have sponsors and bound by contract what info and statements you can make

just would be great to hear from John - project alive, everything ok

------------

Hello to All,

Sorry to have been AWOL - have had a rough past year.

The Silver Streak project is back on track. It's not easy stuffing 258 large format cells (985 lbs.) in the tear drop shaped Insight - while achieving the goals of safety, weight balance, thermal management, and lowest CG.

There are three separate cell enclosures that in total make up the 318V, 225 ah, 71.5 kWh pack. We've been reworking the front under-hood cell enclosure to make it fit, and are ready to test-fit the under-body gas tank area enclosure. The third one will be installed in the hatch area IMA/battery space below the hatch floor. There are no cells aft of the rear twist beam, so no heavy weight back there and the original flush-mount sunken twin 12 sub enclosure gets to stay

The hatch area will actually have a been more storage capacity than when the car was a hybrid with the sound system's beefy amp rack bump just behind the seats - now displaced by a lower profile bump for the hatch floor cells. In addition to the BMS, charger, and J1772 connectivity, the competition grade sound system is quite a feat to finish, as it's being redesigned to be as rad as it was before the tear-down, but with the amps flush-fitted at hatch floor level.

As with all my conversions, the electric motor has to stay in clear view, but since it's a rare EV1 motor sporting the 'GM' data tag, it 'really' has to be in clear view The air cond. system adds to the complexity of getting it all right under the hood.

I am hoping to have the car done in time for this June's big 'Greenwood Classic' car show in Seattle, and plan to drive Silver Streak round trip from Portland - 350+ miles, without charging.

When I feel I have something more interesting for others to read, I'll post it at 'Wayland's Words' at the Plasma Boy Racing web site.

See Ya...John Wayland

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