Wayland's 350Mile per Charge Honda Insight BEV

I'm not sure what 75Ah cells he refers to ... The closest cells I found on the Dow Kokam web site are:

SLPB-60460330H
70Ah
3.7V Nominal
2C Max Charge Rate
5C max continuous Discharge rate
10C max peak pulse discharge rate
between 1.87 kg and 2.03 kg each
5.8 mm ( +/- 0.3 ) x 455 mm ( +/-2.0 ) x 325 mm ( +/- 2.0 )
Bewteen ~0.802978 Liters to ~0.9115779 Liters each
Between ~138.5 Wh / kg and ~127.5 Wh / kg
Between ~322.5 wh / L and ~284.1 Wh / L

Wayne listed 258 cells in a 3P86S format.
between 1,152 lbs and 1,061 lbs just for batteries + Connections + box + etc.

~208 Liters to ~236 Liters + connections + Box + etc.
If just the batteries were all in one tight mass it could be as small as ~60cm x ~60cm x ~60cm ... or
~23.6 Inches x ~23.6 Inches x ~23.6 Inches.

He listed 318V, 225 ah, 71.5 kWh ...
but the cells spec sheets I could find look more like it would be 318.2V , 210 Ah , ~66.8 kwh.

At 80% DoD ( ~53.4 kwh usable ) that means he needs to average about ~6.5 miles per kwh to make the 350 mile trip in one charge... that will be hard at 55+ MPH highway speeds , including the extra several hundred pounds of weight he is adding to the vehicle.

If he does have 75 Ah cells at 80% DoD that gives him ~57.2 kwh usable of the 71.5 ... which would still need more than ~6.1 miles per kwh at those 55+ MPH highway speeds including the extra several hundered pounds of weight he is adding.

Sounds tight / a close call to me... may or may not make it... will be interesting to see what is average speed ends up being and how much energy he does end up using.

piotrsko said:

my thoughts are more related to battery sizing and chemistry. I just cant envision any room in the vehicle except for battery storage

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They will eat allot of space ... but if he plans it out carefully , he might be able to make it look nearly OEM and still have 2 full seats and the area above the rear flat OEM IMA cover... from the outside it might not look that different from an OEM Gen-1 Insight.

With the Rear IMA area gutted , spare tire removed, and rear cargo area ... all combined there might just be enough space to make it still look near OEM from the top with the rear IMA hatch cover down ... I would expect him to split up the battery pack though ... putting some in the front, not only for space but to distribute the weight.

- - - - - - - -

Considering the goal of ~350 Miles ... I think his desire to use 10C discharge rated cells is an error better suited for the drag strip and less so for this specific application.

We won't be able to use that much discharge rate ... and he could have done better than ~138 wh / kg with other types of cells... even if they don't have the 10C discharge rate.

At 100 kw he won't even be pulling 2C ... and even 200 kw won't be over 3C for a 70+ kwh pack.

A Tesla-ish style pack with modern 18650 cells each over 200 wh / kg would have given him significantly more energy ( ~100 kwh ) in the same weight ... or shaved off a chunk of weight for the same capacity.

But I still look forward to see how it comes out... he has done nice work in the past.

gor said:

i don't know, Ian - until they start tests and have some results - your guess same good as mine

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fair enough ... we will both have to wait for some more definitive data as the project unfolds.

gor said:

i like JW idea to make series of long trips to show - long range IS possible and possible NOW; break common perception of EVs as heavy, slow, low power, low range golf carts, good only around city block
i'm sure he can do it with the range (range fear) - same as he did it in the drag strip with power and speed

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I love the concept myself as well ... not only will his conversion have a good sized range , but he is also upgrading the OEM acceleration at the same time ... and the icing on the cake might be the finished project has a good chance to look clean and finished also... so it has great potential.

It seems they have the right combination of skilled and knowledgeable people together working on this project ... combined with some nice sponsorship lined up and some quality components.

So I have no doubt they will successfully make the conversion ... and I have no doubt the finished conversion will have a much longer than normal range , and will perform very well , etc.

The only doubts I still have are about how tight some of the margins look to me ... although as already posted ... I don't have enough data to clearly know one way or the other... from what data we have already seen it looks to me like the finished project has a very good chance of having a significant % of SoC still left unused by the end of the trip ... and a slim chance it might run just a little short.

The challenge is simple and straight forward – travel from Portland, Oregon to Seattle, Washington and back on a single charge at the posted freeway speed limits in a converted modern production car for ~ 350 miles at 55-70 mph on the I-5 freeway system.

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Of course as said above there is still a great deal unknown / undefined ... so YMMV definitely still applies.

From the details John has generously shared ... and the following assumptions:

• no net change in OEM aerodynamics
• With 0 MPH winds constant
• @55 MPH steady
• @60 degrees F constant
• @14.7 Psi Air Pressure constant
• 0% Relative Humidity
• the estimated final weight ~2,850
• Not significantly more than ~220 Pounds of driver , beverage, music system, etc.
• no slope up or down.
• 0.007 Crr Constant
• 71.5kwh usable battery output.
• 100% DoD
• Peukert k value low enough to be reasonably negligible at the planned discharge rates.
• final system average ~85% efficiency from battery output to wheels.

He might see a little more than ~500 Miles on a single charge ... which would easily complete his ~350 mile trip with plenty to spare ... yeagh!!!

But there are a lot of ifs and assumptions in that list ... all of which can effect the final out come.

The margins I see show a health surplus on the good side of finishing with better range than the ~350 target run ... but the margins do not look so big as to be a sure thing for the range of reasonably possible variations still undefined... YMMV.

MN Driver said:

I'd be happy enough if he could do 350 miles off of 71.5kwh but if the Insight turns out to be capable of maintaining speed on the flat with good weather no wind load at 9.6kw steady state and really capable of 447 miles to 100% DOD (160wh/mile), I'll be ecstatic

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I see a large range of factors still undefined ... only time will tell ... if it comes out as expected I anticipate in good conditions a bit over 500 Miles per charge 100% DoD ... but, even if it turns out as planed , in bad conditions the same vehicle might only go about ~200 miles on the same amount of energy ... There are just a lot of unknown variables that can have significant influence on the total amount of energy it takes to move the vehicle each mile of distance... I think he has a good buffer to have a good chance to do the ~350 miles ... but until other details get ironed out , I don't think it is a sure thing quiet yet.

@ 100% DoD his ~71.5 kwh is about ~2 Gallons of gasoline worth of energy ... in a drive system that I expect to average somewhere between 2 and 3 times as energy efficient as the OEM ICE ... which puts him at around the same range as a OEM Insight with about ~5 Gallons of gas in the tank... ~350 Miles from ~5 Gallons in a OEM Insight is doable ... but still in the range of YMMV.... +/- conditions and driving methods.

meanderingthemaze said:

It would be great to know how the suspensions mods are done, so that others can safely convert on that platform. They really built that car to very tight tolerances. The max payload is only 400lbs, which includes passengers! Even with lightweight lithium, it's easy to go over tolerances.

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Well ... Wayland was able to pull out a bit over 400 pounds in the strip down part of the conversion.

So ~800 Pounds or ~360 kg to work with.

If you are willing to tone down the power to a bit more like the OEM acceleration ... I think there is room for lower ranges that would still be reasonable for many people without the suspension upgrades ... although those suspension upgrades might be wanted anyway ... even if the weight is not more than OEM.

For example ... You could use a EMRAX motor ... give you a peak for acceleration of about ~60kw from only a ~12kg Motor ... There are a variety of controller options ... but should be able to do it easily under ~10kg ... even if you eat another ~40 kg or so in cooling, wires, battery boxes,etc ... you still have ~300kg or ~660 lbs to use for batteries without need for the suspension upgrades ... although it might not be a bad idea to do anyway.

At 100Wh/kg battery ... and there are plenty of others out there better than that ... ~300 kg is about ~30kwh of battery capacity potential ... in the light weight aerodynamic Insight Body that is about ~150 miles or so per charge... at ~150 wh/kg and the same ~300kg , you're up to about ~45kwh , or about ~220 Miles per charge.

Wayland is going beyond this of course ... he is going for much more than 60kw of peak acceleration ... I think he's aiming more for about ~137 HP ( which is about double the OEM ) ... and he is aiming for about ~71kwh of battery capacity ... but not everyone would need both the increased power and that much range ... so others might not have to push it as far as he is aiming for.