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Wayland's 350Mile per Charge Honda Insight BEV

64277 Views 85 Replies 29 Participants Last post by  rochesterricer
Heads up here comes Silver Streak:
See Link for details.

Crazy Highlights.

John Wayland's Gen-1 Honda Insight is being rebuilt for long range BEV. 350 Miles per charge at highway speeds of 55 to 70 MPH.

71.5 kwh battery rated for up to 715 kw of discharge power.
He is expecting to get about ~5 Miles per kwh over the 350 mile run.

He is considering weather to go with a 100 kw or 200 kw motor controller / Inverter and drive motor.

That's crazy ... but I look forward to reading more about it as the story unfolds.
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I didn't say he was . that's what battery pack can do(10xC) 715 KW or 958 hp .
10C discharge peaks is small compared to the 40C discharge peaks he used in the Zombie.

715kw from batteries would probably at best only give you about ~640kw to the wheels ... still crazy high amount of peak power ... even if he wanted to make it into a drag racer ... he would need some crazy modifications to keep the tires from just spinning out with that kind of power being put down ... and allot of those kinds of modifications would seriously hurt his range goals.

Thinking of crazy uses for that kind of ~600kw of electrical power leads me to lasers... Here is a high power laser diode that can do 500kw to 2MW and is itself only 22x26x8 cm... granted each laser blast only lasts a maximum of 1ns , but still part of me finds it funny... or a Tesla Coil for the car shows... but no ... we want something 'practical' like driving for 350 miles in 1 charge.;)
I'm not sure what 75Ah cells he refers to ... The closest cells I found on the Dow Kokam web site are:

3.7V Nominal
2C Max Charge Rate
5C max continuous Discharge rate
10C max peak pulse discharge rate
between 1.87 kg and 2.03 kg each
5.8 mm ( +/- 0.3 ) x 455 mm ( +/-2.0 ) x 325 mm ( +/- 2.0 )
Bewteen ~0.802978 Liters to ~0.9115779 Liters each
Between ~138.5 Wh / kg and ~127.5 Wh / kg
Between ~322.5 wh / L and ~284.1 Wh / L

Wayne listed 258 cells in a 3P86S format.
between 1,152 lbs and 1,061 lbs just for batteries + Connections + box + etc.

~208 Liters to ~236 Liters + connections + Box + etc.
If just the batteries were all in one tight mass it could be as small as ~60cm x ~60cm x ~60cm ... or
~23.6 Inches x ~23.6 Inches x ~23.6 Inches.

He listed 318V, 225 ah, 71.5 kWh ...
but the cells spec sheets I could find look more like it would be 318.2V , 210 Ah , ~66.8 kwh.

At 80% DoD ( ~53.4 kwh usable ) that means he needs to average about ~6.5 miles per kwh to make the 350 mile trip in one charge... that will be hard at 55+ MPH highway speeds , including the extra several hundred pounds of weight he is adding to the vehicle.

If he does have 75 Ah cells at 80% DoD that gives him ~57.2 kwh usable of the 71.5 ... which would still need more than ~6.1 miles per kwh at those 55+ MPH highway speeds including the extra several hundered pounds of weight he is adding.

Sounds tight / a close call to me... may or may not make it... will be interesting to see what is average speed ends up being and how much energy he does end up using.

my thoughts are more related to battery sizing and chemistry. I just cant envision any room in the vehicle except for battery storage
They will eat allot of space ... but if he plans it out carefully , he might be able to make it look nearly OEM and still have 2 full seats and the area above the rear flat OEM IMA cover... from the outside it might not look that different from an OEM Gen-1 Insight.

With the Rear IMA area gutted , spare tire removed, and rear cargo area ... all combined there might just be enough space to make it still look near OEM from the top with the rear IMA hatch cover down ... I would expect him to split up the battery pack though ... putting some in the front, not only for space but to distribute the weight.

- - - - - - - -

Considering the goal of ~350 Miles ... I think his desire to use 10C discharge rated cells is an error better suited for the drag strip and less so for this specific application.

We won't be able to use that much discharge rate ... and he could have done better than ~138 wh / kg with other types of cells... even if they don't have the 10C discharge rate.

At 100 kw he won't even be pulling 2C ... and even 200 kw won't be over 3C for a 70+ kwh pack.

A Tesla-ish style pack with modern 18650 cells each over 200 wh / kg would have given him significantly more energy ( ~100 kwh ) in the same weight ... or shaved off a chunk of weight for the same capacity.

But I still look forward to see how it comes out... he has done nice work in the past.
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Nice post.
One question though.
Which battery is being used here?
I mean the company that manufactures that battery.
I have a project in the works which im working on my self.

Very hush hush | top secret.
In the initial report from Wayne it was indicated a 75Ah cell from Kokam was being used.

The closest match I could find on Kokam's site is a 70Ah rated cell ( SLPB-60460330H ) ... the specs on the 70Ah cell and link are in previous post.
To sum it up, despite all the armchair analysis here, Silver Streak will indeed, have a fully accessible 71.5 kWh will only consume about 185 Wh per mile @ 65 mph, and at 65 mph on average, it should consume ~ 65 kWh to travel 350 miles. At 55 moph on average, the car will top 400 miles per charge.

See Ya...John Wayland
Thanks for taking on the project ... I love it.

Thanks for the additional information and clarifications.

I'm curious about What method did you use to determine the 185 wh / mile @ 65 MPH?

When I think about the OEM weight and aerodynamics 71.5 kwh @ an average of ~65 MPH it seems to need about ~85% efficiency from the battery to wheels to achieve ~350 miles even at 100% DoD... even with no head wind, and no slope ... which might be doable , but tight ... between controller losses , motor losses, etc.

The conversion reads like it will be several hundred pound increase to the vehicle weight ... every ~18 pounds of additional weight will increase the rolling resistance by ~1%.

So I am curious about what the additional detail is that I am missing ... is the Aerodynamics being improved during the conversion? ... Is a good bit of the vehicle being stripped down to bare bones to be able to reduce the negative impact of the weight of that many batteries? ... or something else?
I wish you the best of luck John.

I have enjoyed the great work you have done in the past.

But with the added weight ... and without aerodynamic improvements ... I still think 185 wh / mile at 65 MPH is a bit optimistic... possible ... but it leaves a small margin for head wind , slope, and efficiency losses between the battery and the wheels... all of which are likely to come up over a 350 mile trip.
It took Tesla building the Roadster to catch the public eye and get the industry motivated to start building actual EV's. It's not a practical car, and the industry could have built something similar, but they lackd the vision and motivation.
Creating / encouraging public / consumer demand is a very worth while investment ... that is why there are $Billions spent on Advertising.

I see this project along the same kind of lines ... it isn't telling anyone up to speed in the field anything they don't already know ... but it is a way to address some of the common concepts some people have that act as barriers to them wanting to buy a BEV ... I think the Tesla did a similar thing along different lines.

When it comes to BEVs the car industry has not been leading the way ... they have been dragging their feet ... but at the end of the day ... supply and demand still rules ... If the consumer demands it ... someone will be willing to take their money and supply them a product.
Looking good ... wishing him the best :D
accel 0-60 in 30sec - 19kw
Where did you see 19kw for acceleration from 0-60 in 30 seconds?

From what I read ... I thought John was expecting ~112kw for acceleration... even with the extra weight he was expecting down around ~7.4 seconds from 0-60... unless I completely misread/misunderstood something somewhere?
for range test (demonstration) we want to pay for accel as lesss as posible

for constant accel only (85% effy, w/o drag) calculated values:

0-60 in 60sec (0.45m/s2) -09.6kw
0-60 in 30sec (0.90m/s2) -19.2kw
0-60 in 15sec (1.79m/s2) -38.5kw
My bad... I misunderstood your post then ... it read to me like you were posting your estimate for his conversions acceleration was only going to be 0-60 in 30 seconds.

I don't have a efficiency map of the controller and motor Wayland is using... So, Maybe I missed something else then as well ???

I thought most motor controllers and such were more efficient closer to full power ... and the high power rated batteries he is using should have very small Peukert k values for battery loads... and the longest range would come from operating the whole system at it's peak efficiency points as much as possible.

For Wayland's setup ... from what I read ~112kw.
19.2kw is less than 18% Load

18% load is the system peak efficiency point? ... that just seems to me to be an odd / weird point for peak efficiency of this system... so I guess I missed something else??
i don't know, Ian - until they start tests and have some results - your guess same good as mine
fair enough ... we will both have to wait for some more definitive data as the project unfolds.

i like JW idea to make series of long trips to show - long range IS possible and possible NOW; break common perception of EVs as heavy, slow, low power, low range golf carts, good only around city block
i'm sure he can do it with the range (range fear) - same as he did it in the drag strip with power and speed
I love the concept myself as well ... not only will his conversion have a good sized range , but he is also upgrading the OEM acceleration at the same time ... and the icing on the cake might be the finished project has a good chance to look clean and finished also... so it has great potential.

It seems they have the right combination of skilled and knowledgeable people together working on this project ... combined with some nice sponsorship lined up and some quality components.

So I have no doubt they will successfully make the conversion ... and I have no doubt the finished conversion will have a much longer than normal range , and will perform very well , etc.

The only doubts I still have are about how tight some of the margins look to me ... although as already posted ... I don't have enough data to clearly know one way or the other... from what data we have already seen it looks to me like the finished project has a very good chance of having a significant % of SoC still left unused by the end of the trip ... and a slim chance it might run just a little short.

The challenge is simple and straight forward – travel from Portland, Oregon to Seattle, Washington and back on a single charge at the posted freeway speed limits in a converted modern production car for ~ 350 miles at 55-70 mph on the I-5 freeway system.
Of course as said above there is still a great deal unknown / undefined ... so YMMV definitely still applies.

From the details John has generously shared ... and the following assumptions:

  • no net change in OEM aerodynamics
  • With 0 MPH winds constant
  • @55 MPH steady
  • @60 degrees F constant
  • @14.7 Psi Air Pressure constant
  • 0% Relative Humidity
  • the estimated final weight ~2,850
  • Not significantly more than ~220 Pounds of driver , beverage, music system, etc.
  • no slope up or down.
  • 0.007 Crr Constant
  • 71.5kwh usable battery output.
  • 100% DoD
  • Peukert k value low enough to be reasonably negligible at the planned discharge rates.
  • final system average ~85% efficiency from battery output to wheels.

He might see a little more than ~500 Miles on a single charge ... which would easily complete his ~350 mile trip with plenty to spare ... yeagh!!!

But there are a lot of ifs and assumptions in that list ... all of which can effect the final out come.

The margins I see show a health surplus on the good side of finishing with better range than the ~350 target run ... but the margins do not look so big as to be a sure thing for the range of reasonably possible variations still undefined... YMMV.
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I'd be happy enough if he could do 350 miles off of 71.5kwh but if the Insight turns out to be capable of maintaining speed on the flat with good weather no wind load at 9.6kw steady state and really capable of 447 miles to 100% DOD (160wh/mile), I'll be ecstatic
I see a large range of factors still undefined ... only time will tell ... if it comes out as expected I anticipate in good conditions a bit over 500 Miles per charge 100% DoD ... but, even if it turns out as planed , in bad conditions the same vehicle might only go about ~200 miles on the same amount of energy ... There are just a lot of unknown variables that can have significant influence on the total amount of energy it takes to move the vehicle each mile of distance... I think he has a good buffer to have a good chance to do the ~350 miles ... but until other details get ironed out , I don't think it is a sure thing quiet yet.

@ 100% DoD his ~71.5 kwh is about ~2 Gallons of gasoline worth of energy ... in a drive system that I expect to average somewhere between 2 and 3 times as energy efficient as the OEM ICE ... which puts him at around the same range as a OEM Insight with about ~5 Gallons of gas in the tank... ~350 Miles from ~5 Gallons in a OEM Insight is doable ... but still in the range of YMMV.... +/- conditions and driving methods.
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I have also noticed the quietness ... but ... my guess would be ... it is a combination of Holiday down time ... winter at least for me with less daylight , colder, etc is just a low energy season for me ... and he is getting several things customized / worked on for him ... so there will also be the schedule coordination side of things.

I'm hoping to hear something new in the way of updates by spring.

Only time and the man himself will tell.
I am hoping to have the car done in time for this June's big 'Greenwood Classic' car show in Seattle, and plan to drive Silver Streak round trip from Portland - 350+ miles, without charging.
Unfortunately to far for me in RI ... I'll have to enjoy it vicariously through others.

When I feel I have something more interesting for others to read, I'll post it at 'Wayland's Words' at the Plasma Boy Racing web site.

See Ya...John Wayland
Thanks for taking the time.
It would be great to know how the suspensions mods are done, so that others can safely convert on that platform. They really built that car to very tight tolerances. The max payload is only 400lbs, which includes passengers! Even with lightweight lithium, it's easy to go over tolerances.
Well ... Wayland was able to pull out a bit over 400 pounds in the strip down part of the conversion.

So ~800 Pounds or ~360 kg to work with.

If you are willing to tone down the power to a bit more like the OEM acceleration ... I think there is room for lower ranges that would still be reasonable for many people without the suspension upgrades ... although those suspension upgrades might be wanted anyway ... even if the weight is not more than OEM.

For example ... You could use a EMRAX motor ... give you a peak for acceleration of about ~60kw from only a ~12kg Motor ... There are a variety of controller options ... but should be able to do it easily under ~10kg ... even if you eat another ~40 kg or so in cooling, wires, battery boxes,etc ... you still have ~300kg or ~660 lbs to use for batteries without need for the suspension upgrades ... although it might not be a bad idea to do anyway.

At 100Wh/kg battery ... and there are plenty of others out there better than that ... ~300 kg is about ~30kwh of battery capacity potential ... in the light weight aerodynamic Insight Body that is about ~150 miles or so per charge... at ~150 wh/kg and the same ~300kg , you're up to about ~45kwh , or about ~220 Miles per charge.

Wayland is going beyond this of course ... he is going for much more than 60kw of peak acceleration ... I think he's aiming more for about ~137 HP ( which is about double the OEM ) ... and he is aiming for about ~71kwh of battery capacity ... but not everyone would need both the increased power and that much range ... so others might not have to push it as far as he is aiming for.
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