Wayland's 350Mile per Charge Honda Insight BEV

Hello Everyone,

The Tesla does 245 miles on its 53 kWh pack - that's 216 Wh per mile. If the Kokam pack's 71.5 kWh was on board the Tesla, it would cover 331 miles. The Tesla's .31 cd makes it an areodynamic brack compared to the Insight's .25 cd., plus the Tesla pushes fat 225 section non LRR tires, too...this explains why it uses 216 Wh per mile. The EV1 was more areo than the Insight and achieved 167 Wh Wh per mile @ 65 mph and could travel up to 160 miles on 26.7 kWh (I personally got 145 miles range when I drove NiMH powered EV1s). My converted Insight will weigh about 200 lbs. less than the EV1, has the same efficient motor and just as efficent inverter, and has the exact size LRR tires and light weight wheels, so it will easily roll down the highway, only not quite as slippery as the EV1.

I am very good at building EVs that require very little juice to roll along (and go like stink) - Blue Meanie is a great example and gets very good range on very little kWh. With its lead acid pack at just 7.9 kWh it did ~40 miles @ 55 mph for about 185 Wh per mile. The Insight is far more areo than the 1200 but less than the EV1, thus the 185 Wh per mile @ 65 mph projected efficiency.

It's pretty well covered at 'Wayland's Words'.

See Ya...John Wayland

JRP3 said:

This is really a great project, exactly what is necessary to show the industry, and the world, what an efficient vehicle is capable of. Since the general public is most concerned with range, this could be as important as the racing efforts, maybe more so.

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There is nothing we can show the industry they don't already know. There are thousands of professional engineers working on EVs in big companies like GM, Tesla or VW. They are not stupid.

Who would buy a Insight-like car with 50.000$ worth battery cells or a Datsun like car which is great for a 1/4 mile but sucks pretty much everywhere else (try to go on a highway with a direct drive DC motor)... It's the same thing with my BMW also.

Let's just be a bit more realistic.

It's not very hard to build a purpose-built car which is good for a few quarter mile runs and which is beeing driven and serviced by people who know what they are doing. A completely different thing is to build a affordable car which works for everyone.

Just an example: Precise SOC determination in high performance EVs. I haven't seen a single one. It seems simple but if it has to work in all conditions and temperatures, measure 5 kW and 500 kW equally precise, it is a major development venture.

What I want to say... GM could easily build cars like we did but where's the point for a big OEM?

My biggest problem with the industry is they aren't attacking the range issue the correct way. Since the batteries are still the most expensive part they should put more emphasis on getting the most out of those batteries, which means greater emphasis on aerodynamics and weight savings. The LEAF could have had a much better cd and could have been lighter, both of which would have increased it's range significantly. Good aerodynamics shouldn't cost any more to build than poor aero. Light weighting might cost more but it's probably cheaper than adding more batteries, and once the design is done and volume production kicks in the extra costs of lightweight design and materials will be reduced per vehicle.

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They aren't marketing to you, or ev enthusiasts in general. They are targeting the general public, and to many of them more vehicle mass is a good thing as it is perceived as safer. Many of the public also care more about how many kids, dogs, and groceries they can fit than they do about Cd. You can give them what they want or try to take on the job of educating them, which generally gives low ROI I think. So far manufacturers have added electric motors mainly to give more power and improved acceleration in the kinds of vehicles they know sell, since they know increased performance also sells, and increased mileage isn't as much an issue until gas prices go up over $4.00/gal. I drive a little electric Swift and think it works fine for most of my driving, but that is not what many of the public think, and if you want to sell in high volume to get costs down as you said, you have to target the majority of the public. I think when gas prices go much higher, there will be more interest the the type of vehicle you described, and once the manufacturers see the market is there, they will start building them.

they are mostly just tiptoeing around the new technology of electric cars, thats why they are generally underpowered and small, and why those alleged plug in hybrids have appalling range.

i think what the ev industry really needs is a corporate sports car, something like the Nissan same battery and floor plan with a say 150kw -200kw motor and looks like a sports car, if you could do that and sell it for a similar price people will buy it. looks are the most important thing in selling a car.

who here wold honestly buy a leaf to drive to and from work every day? now who here would buy a small two seater with 150kw and 160km range to get them to work

both cars are essentially similar in build cost but one has a much broader market. and when you are building a corporate sports car you don't have to worry about how many vegetables and children it can carry.

Note: when i say corporate sports car i mean any cheep two seater that is made to look like but not necessarily perform like a sports car.

tomofreno said:

They aren't marketing to you, or ev enthusiasts in general. They are targeting the general public, and to many of them more vehicle mass is a good thing as it is perceived as safer. Many of the public also care more about how many kids, dogs, and groceries they can fit than they do about Cd. You can give them what they want or try to take on the job of educating them, which generally gives low ROI I think. So far manufacturers have added electric motors mainly to give more power and improved acceleration in the kinds of vehicles they know sell, since they know increased performance also sells, and increased mileage isn't as much an issue until gas prices go up over $4.00/gal. I drive a little electric Swift and think it works fine for most of my driving, but that is not what many of the public think, and if you want to sell in high volume to get costs down as you said, you have to target the majority of the public. I think when gas prices go much higher, there will be more interest the the type of vehicle you described, and once the manufacturers see the market is there, they will start building them.

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^^^Pretty much everything he said.^^^

I think there will be more and more electric vehicles, in all the differing configurations, but the goal of the manufacturers (at least at this point) isn't to build the ultimate BEV, pure, electric car. The latest round of them proves this point - they're trying to make them more conventional, or at least more conventional appearing. Nissan even designed the motor bay of the Leaf to look like a traditional engine bay - on an economy car! That really speaks volumes about where their focus is. If you really think about what the companies exist for, you have to agree it's a smart move. They're publicly owned and traded companies, which means their primary focus is value for the shareholders (owners). The vehicles are a means of generating it. Maximum value dictates over all, not maximum benefit. Maximum benefit is a sales pitch.

As for Wayland's project: it's very important, even if the average person doesn't connect with it on a personal level. It's a halo car, just like a Corvette, a Viper, or a Tesla Roadster. Every person I have mentioned vehicles like WZ to seems more convinced with the potential and viability of EVs in general. I can't wait to be able to say this guy has a little Datsun that runs 9s, and an Insight that goes 350 miles! I can hear the "wow, I didn't know they could do that" replies now! Accomplishments like that help people believe in the technology. That is a huge battle in itself. I remember when using adhesives to put cars together was first mentioned - instant fear reaction, even though NASA was using it to build space vehicles!