Wayland's 350Mile per Charge Honda Insight BEV

Hello Everyone.

From CroDriver:

>Who would buy a Insight-like car with 50.000$ worth battery cells...

No one, of course. However, accomplishing something everyday folks can relate to, such as traveling between two physically large states between two major cities nearly 200 miles apart, in 'an electric car' at posted speed limits proves - it 'can' be done. The logical conversation then moves to 'as battery tech improves and costs go down, you could soon be driving a family sedan that does 300 miles.

>or a Datsun like car which is great for a 1/4 mile but sucks pretty much everywhere >else (try to go on a highway with a direct drive DC motor)

CroDriver, maybe you need to see my post under the drag Bug thread...82 miles on the open highway with 30% battery left, direct drive DC motors hand-touch warm, under 200 Wh per mile, 0-60 in 1.8 and 10.2 1/4 mile.

See Ya...John Wayland

The thing is I think there is already a substantial market of early adopters more interested in practical efficiency, and I'll bet most of the ones buying pure BEV's have a second vehicle, so hauling the family and all their junk is not a concern.

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I agree with the latter statement, but probably disagree with what is "substantial". You said earlier that high volume production would bring costs down. I don't think the volume required is attainable with just this segment of the market. It could be that it is large enough to get the manufacturers started, and as gas prices increase more the market will increase. It could also be that increasing gas prices will drive the economy into another recession leading to demand destruction, lower gas prices, and a decrease in demand for electric vehicles.

Truth is that the early adopters are not the general public, and current production can't keep up with current demand.

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Yes, because current production levels are abysmal, nothing close to production levels of other cars, not because the number of early adopters is large. They could probably satisfy that market with a production level comparable to that of their most popular cars in less than one year. I suspect for example, that Nissan is not dedicating more of their production capacity to ev's because their other vehicle models are more profitable. Plus they likely want to see if any unforeseen issues crop up that cause a recall.

I think the "conversation on electric cars" has already moved to a larger sedan with 300 mile range. The Tesla did give proof of concept that an ev could go fast and far, and be reliable. I would guess that to many an Insight with an expensive battery pack is just a lower performance Tesla (long range but only two passengers and not much cargo space) that still cost way too much. Many can't afford to spend even the cost of a Volt, so they won't consider buying a BEV until they see a low cost sedan with 300 mile range, and a charging station infrastructure. So I guess it is a question of can the manufacturers get a foot up in the ev business selling to "early adopters" without loosing too much money, and have improvements in batteries happen soon enough, and gas prices stay high enough to expand the market. I don't expect significantly improved batteries in high volume production quantities for at least 8 years, and a lot of things would have to "go right" for that to happen. For example, a change in political leadership in two years could lead to loss of federal financial support for research in this area.

I get excited when I hear of new advances related to evs, but the above is my attempt at a more objective appraisal based on feedback I have gotten from people looking at my ev. Could be it is not a representative sample - NV is not the most open-to-change state. Myself, I think we will be forced to make some big changes in the future, but most of us won't do it until forced, which will make the challenge much greater. Will be interesting to see how it unfolds though!

My own experience, as a driver of a 2 seat EV with 50 mile max range, has been different than yours. Most people are enthusiastic and impressed, some have even said "why aren't automakers doing this?" They are obviously thinking if I can do this in my garage what could a real automaker do? Admittedly I live in an area more environmentally aware and open to new ideas than most. Ithaca has been described as ten square miles surrounded by reality. Still in a country of 300 million it only takes a small percentage of the population to sell millions of EV's, and the more that are sold the more people are exposed to the reality of them and more demand is created. People who won't accept an EV until it costs the same as a Civic and goes 300 miles aren't realistic and aren't the target market, nor will they be for years to come. People who have more than one vehicle and put a premium on the environmental and political benefits of EV's are and will be the target market for some time. The economic argument doesn't make sense for any new vehicle, an efficient used ICE will win out for a long time, yet people still buy new vehicles. They also buy impractical two seaters and often pay a premium for a less useful vehicle just to get the impression of performance, (not necessarily the reality of it), because performance is "cool". Performance is cool but so is efficiency, more so in today's world, perceptions are changing.

I'll post a comment to subscribe to this thread, I've been reading it up to just after the start of April and haven't been here since John popped in to give us some information on what he was doing. Awesome to see a project done on this car. My conversion will be with the Insight as well with my main delay being funding and figuring out paying for the conversion and purchase cost of components and getting over the desire to put money into my mortgage to pay a chunk down to lower interest costs early in the game(bought my house last year). Since I'm not beginning my project right now, when the weather is nice, and I have no desire to do it through winter, I'm on track to convert an Insight next summer. While I wait, I will be watching progress very closely, this may be the first conversion of an Insight that is actually well documented that has someone behind it who supports the EV community and is willing to share details. Everyone else who has converted one, including everyone on EV Album seems to have stopped updating their information and doesn't respond to any emails, even though they are short and straight to the point. Oh well, but it is awesome to see some high energy density batteries used. Like John said, they aren't the highest Kokam has but they are still much higher in energy density than the LiFePO4 that I'll be using(roughly 20kwh worth, weighing mid-400 lbs) I'll cross my fingers for improvements in energy density from Winston/Thunder Sky, CALB/Sky Energy, or HiPower but won't put my project on hold. Currently looking at getting a good price on some older generation HiPower batteries, since the car is light and aerodynamic and my gas version doesn't seem to care much in efficiency at steady speeds when it has a 500 pound payload, still getting 70MPG on the highway at 70MPH with it, I know it will make a difference but battery weight hopefully won't have too huge of an impact on my range with the stock low rolling resistance tires.

If I get John Wayland's estimation of efficiency, I'll have 100 miles range, I don't really need that much though, I could live with half that but it would be convenient to drive for months at a time without firing up a gas car to go father. I'll still keep my current Insight as I drive 20,000 miles a year which includes cross country trips, so I'll own two Insights. Right now the donor cars are a little on the pricey side since the most fuel efficient mass produced gasoline car is in heavy demand considering gas prices are close to the highs of mid-2008, possibly this fall the hysteria will drop off and I can get one for my donor target price. I missed my chance for a $2000 one last fall and having trouble finding one with a bad hybrid battery or some other issue that I could still drive one back to Minnesota with for a reasonable price. Having a rust-proof body is priceless to me to, which is another reason I'd love to convert one.

JRoque said:

Hi.


I agree with Wayland's point. In fact, you can already drive 200 miles for about $25K worth of batteries.

What ticks me off is that car manufacturers are using the same equation to set their EVs price points and everyone's eating it hook line and sinker. They can buy this stuff much cheaper than anyone of us can yet, for their same price, we can build a car that performs equally or better, all while paying single unit retail prices.

JR

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From my perspective, it appears the car manufacturers are having difficulties manufacturing electric cars. Think of this analogy: if a big oil tanker needs to change direction, it could take several miles to take effect. On the other hand a speed boat can change direction in a flash.

Didn't car manufacturers announce electric cars in the late 1990s? Some were even in production. Or was too much money spent on combustion engines that they need to recover costs and get a return on investment?
The electric cars which some of the car manufacturers produce in 2011 are way too expensive and it's probably because they think they can can get away with charging such high prices.

I've got the attitude that if it's to be, it's up to me. The car manufacturers can't even agree on a charging strategy.

Yet, people in our community charge batteries via the power point. When we park our electric vehicles at home, we charge it up like charging our mobile phones or other devices.

People in the EV community are to be commended for challenging the philosophy of car manufacturers. We have the "if its to be, it's up to me" attitude which is vital. I doubt the car manufacturers can change their strategy quickly, but sooner or later, the rest of society will see what we see.

That's my rant for today
regards
Crazy Al

There are several Hybrid drive trains that would make great Pure EV drive trains the GM dual mode hybrid is one example. If I can get my hands on one I will rebuild it to make a pure EV with 2 Remy motors in it, it has more than enough power for a car. This looks like the most viable option for it has enough power to make a fun EV. Toyotas Prius motors are not powerful enough in my opinion to go through the effort required. The SUV hybrids Toyota makes do look like they would be worth the effort also. I haven’t looked into the Leaf motor and transmission which someone here said Nissan will sell outright.
So to get an affordable power train you can go DC or secondhand AC. It is a matter of taste; I like the braking capacity of AC and BLDC motors, not for efficiency increase, but more for less ware on the mechanical braking system, which our drive trains add. Does anyone have contacts at Remy have them passed the economy of scale achieved through the Daimler GM hybrid drive train on to us DIY guys.

CrazyAl said:

From my perspective, it appears the car manufacturers are having difficulties manufacturing electric cars.

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I'd agree with that too but qualify it with a further: having difficulties figuring out how to squeeze the obscene profits they've been getting out of ICE machines. It's not just the ICE cars themselves but the massive industry that it spawns.

They have no interest in changing the status quo and for good reasons. They have us all bent over a barrel (no pun intended) with their oil model and there's little we can do about it. They know electric vehicles are far better. They know that if they invest just a small portion of what they do in promoting ICE oil changes to improve cell technologies they can make it more than just practical. But why? That just benefits their customers and the environment, not them.

Battery prices will not be driven down just by volume. A company with a hot battery technology like A123's won't just drop their prices because you buy a bunch of them. The key is competition. As soon as a few other battery companies stand in this space, A123 will say they've found new ways to reduce their costs and start competing in price. How convenient that will be. My first cellphone cost me $1800, the latest one was $100.

JR

Hello to All,

Thanks for the interest. Yes, the flat shape of the cells certainly helps
in the 'find places to put all of them' department! To be honest, it's quite a challenge to find the space for 985 ls. of cells - which when installed including the actually module cases, conductors, and BMS will be 1080 lbs.

I 'had' wanted to simply make three, 318V, 75 ah rectangular batteries, 86 cells in each. These 75 ah cells are larger than the 30 ah cells used in the Zombie, and so they are thicker at ~ 1/2", thus 86 of them stacked in a row takes up ~43", so call the box 43.5" long. There is not a single area in the Insight, other than doing a ticky-tacky just fill the hatch area thing, where a rectangular box 11" wide, 12" tall, and 43.5" long can fit.

The other issue is weight balance, a priority so the car will handle very well, even though it will be about 1000 lbs. heavier than stock! Properly balanced and with new suspension pieces and light but strong bracing, the car will drive well. Improperly balanced, it would be a nightmare!

With the above considerations then, I've decided on 11 modules, 10 of them identical with an 11th one holding fewer cells and thus being a little smaller and lighter. Each module will be a flat-shaped rectangle that can be mounted either vertically or horizontally. The modules will be ~ 5" thick x ~12" tall x ~ 32" long, and will contain a 3P8S cell arrangement.
Doing it this way drops the BMS board count to 1/3 the number required for three separate 318V BIG batteries. Visualize 8 cells stacked on top of each other with two identical stack on each side. Each stack is in series to get 29.6V @ 75 ah, and going from left to right, each cell layer is paralleled, for 3 cells in parallel. A central-mounted RegDeck board & BMS will be connected to all three stacks. Each of these 24 cell flat modules will be 29.6V @ 225 ah, with the 11th module being an 18 cell 22.2V @ 225 ah. Total pack is 318V.2V @ 225 ah for 71.6 kWh.

With modules shaped like this, I can squeeze 3 under the hood (one laying flat, two standing vertically) without blocking the view of the rare EV1 AC motor with the gorgeous Rinehart Motion Systems inverter mounted with it - in addition to performance, presentation is very important. The other 8 will go midship both in the now empty IMA chamber below the hatch deck area, and underneath it where the gas tank was - all of it a very tight fit, all of it not yet all worked out and finalized.

If it does work out, the competition grade sound system will go right back where it was, though it will now tilt up and away for battery module access and presentation.

I invite everyone to visit the 'Wayland's Words' section of my website to follow this project - the current posting has photos to go along with the story.

See Ya...John Wayland

<http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/blog/>

coulombKid said:

If you look at the parts of the current White Zombie cells the Dow cells are more like envelopes and can be stuffed into a lot of spaces prizmatics cannot. They would also lend themselves well to an under the car belly pan pack like is going under the new Tesla-S. Spread em out too much and connections weight will go up though. Weird side thought. My car needs a belly pan to clean up the aerodynamics. What if I raised it up a little and......

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