Wayland's 350Mile per Charge Honda Insight BEV

64288 Views 85 Replies 29 Participants Last post by rochesterricer, Feb 14, 2013

IamIan

Discussion Starter · Mar 18, 2011

Heads up here comes Silver Streak:
See Link for details.

Crazy Highlights.

John Wayland's Gen-1 Honda Insight is being rebuilt for long range BEV. 350 Miles per charge at highway speeds of 55 to 70 MPH.

71.5 kwh battery rated for up to 715 kw of discharge power.
He is expecting to get about ~5 Miles per kwh over the 350 mile run.

He is considering weather to go with a 100 kw or 200 kw motor controller / Inverter and drive motor.

That's crazy ... but I look forward to reading more about it as the story unfolds.

61 - 80 of 86 Posts

steven4601

· #61 · Sep 30, 2011

Just read the blog. That picture made me chuckle

Hope the wattage per mile goal will be reached. Id love to hear how the optimum magnetisation current is chosen. Road-testing and trying various magnetisation currents to obtain lowest watt/mile?

//Steven

gor

· #62 · Oct 1, 2011 (Edited)

congratulations with starting this build, John.
thanks for lots of info here and in your blog

numbers looks good - real challenge is to prove it in real life, and i have no doubts - you can
------------------
target converted weight - 2850lbs [1292.7kg]+driver 70= 1363kg

cd=0.25; frontal area 1.9m2
roll.res.c=0.007
drivetrain effy: contr.(inverter) motor,trany -85%

at 60 mph power required:
air drag - 5.6kw
roll.res - 2.5kw
dr.tr.eff.losses: 85%- 1.4kw ( 2kw-80%)
total power required = 9.6 kw

71.5kWh. /9.6kwat60mph=7.45hx60=447mi

71.5kWh. /09kw at60=7.9hx60=477mi
71.5kWh. /10kw at60=7.2hx60=420mi
71.5kWh. /11kw at60=6.5hx60=390mi
71.5kWh. /13kw at60=5.5hx60=330mi
71.5kWh. /15kw at60=4.7hx60=286mi

accel 0-60 in 30sec - 19kw

------------------

thanks again for shearing details and for good info, John! please keep us updated on details and testing
i believe 400 mile, 8-hour trip ahead of us - soon : )
good luck

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IamIan

Discussion Starter · #63 · Oct 1, 2011

gor said:
accel 0-60 in 30sec - 19kw

Where did you see 19kw for acceleration from 0-60 in 30 seconds?

From what I read ... I thought John was expecting ~112kw for acceleration... even with the extra weight he was expecting down around ~7.4 seconds from 0-60... unless I completely misread/misunderstood something somewhere?

gor

· #64 · Oct 1, 2011 (Edited)

IamIan said:
Where did you see 19kw for acceleration from 0-60 in 30 seconds?

From what I read ... I thought John was expecting ~112kw for acceleration... even with the extra weight he was expecting down around ~7.4 seconds from 0-60... unless I completely misread/misunderstood something somewhere?

for range test (demonstration) we want to pay for accel as lesss as posible

for constant accel only (85% effy, w/o drag) calculated values:

0-60 in 60sec (0.45m/s2) -09.6kw
0-60 in 30sec (0.90m/s2) -19.2kw
0-60 in 15sec (1.79m/s2) -38.5kw

gor

· #65 · Oct 1, 2011 (Edited)

JRP3 said:

yes, that's obviously would work for sneaking in drive-in movie

... JW looks taller in real life ...

IamIan

Discussion Starter · #66 · Oct 2, 2011

gor said:
for range test (demonstration) we want to pay for accel as lesss as posible

for constant accel only (85% effy, w/o drag) calculated values:

0-60 in 60sec (0.45m/s2) -09.6kw
0-60 in 30sec (0.90m/s2) -19.2kw
0-60 in 15sec (1.79m/s2) -38.5kw

My bad... I misunderstood your post then ... it read to me like you were posting your estimate for his conversions acceleration was only going to be 0-60 in 30 seconds.

I don't have a efficiency map of the controller and motor Wayland is using... So, Maybe I missed something else then as well ???

I thought most motor controllers and such were more efficient closer to full power ... and the high power rated batteries he is using should have very small Peukert k values for battery loads... and the longest range would come from operating the whole system at it's peak efficiency points as much as possible.

For Wayland's setup ... from what I read ~112kw.
19.2kw is less than 18% Load

18% load is the system peak efficiency point? ... that just seems to me to be an odd / weird point for peak efficiency of this system... so I guess I missed something else??

gor

· #67 · Oct 2, 2011

i don't know, Ian - until they start tests and have some results - your guess same good as mine

i like JW idea to make series of long trips to show - long range IS possible and possible NOW; break common perception of EVs as heavy, slow, low power, low range golf carts, good only around city block
i'm sure he can do it with the range (range fear) - same as he did it in the drag strip with power and speed

IamIan

Discussion Starter · #68 · Oct 2, 2011

gor said:
i don't know, Ian - until they start tests and have some results - your guess same good as mine

fair enough ... we will both have to wait for some more definitive data as the project unfolds.

gor said:
i like JW idea to make series of long trips to show - long range IS possible and possible NOW; break common perception of EVs as heavy, slow, low power, low range golf carts, good only around city block
i'm sure he can do it with the range (range fear) - same as he did it in the drag strip with power and speed

I love the concept myself as well ... not only will his conversion have a good sized range , but he is also upgrading the OEM acceleration at the same time ... and the icing on the cake might be the finished project has a good chance to look clean and finished also... so it has great potential.

It seems they have the right combination of skilled and knowledgeable people together working on this project ... combined with some nice sponsorship lined up and some quality components.

So I have no doubt they will successfully make the conversion ... and I have no doubt the finished conversion will have a much longer than normal range , and will perform very well , etc.

The only doubts I still have are about how tight some of the margins look to me ... although as already posted ... I don't have enough data to clearly know one way or the other... from what data we have already seen it looks to me like the finished project has a very good chance of having a significant % of SoC still left unused by the end of the trip ... and a slim chance it might run just a little short.

The challenge is simple and straight forward – travel from Portland, Oregon to Seattle, Washington and back on a single charge at the posted freeway speed limits in a converted modern production car for ~ 350 miles at 55-70 mph on the I-5 freeway system.

Of course as said above there is still a great deal unknown / undefined ... so YMMV definitely still applies.

From the details John has generously shared ... and the following assumptions:

no net change in OEM aerodynamics
With 0 MPH winds constant
@55 MPH steady
@60 degrees F constant
@14.7 Psi Air Pressure constant
0% Relative Humidity
the estimated final weight ~2,850
Not significantly more than ~220 Pounds of driver , beverage, music system, etc.
no slope up or down.
0.007 Crr Constant
71.5kwh usable battery output.
100% DoD
Peukert k value low enough to be reasonably negligible at the planned discharge rates.
final system average ~85% efficiency from battery output to wheels.

He might see a little more than ~500 Miles on a single charge ... which would easily complete his ~350 mile trip with plenty to spare ... yeagh!!!

But there are a lot of ifs and assumptions in that list ... all of which can effect the final out come.

The margins I see show a health surplus on the good side of finishing with better range than the ~350 target run ... but the margins do not look so big as to be a sure thing for the range of reasonably possible variations still undefined... YMMV.

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MN Driver

· #69 · Oct 5, 2011

I'd be happy enough if he could do 350 miles off of 71.5kwh but if the Insight turns out to be capable of maintaining speed on the flat with good weather no wind load at 9.6kw steady state and really capable of 447 miles to 100% DOD (160wh/mile), I'll be ecstatic as I 20kwh in mine would yield 125 miles on a perfect day but I could probably figure 100 miles(80% max) fairly safely on a fairweather day on the highway and be fine if the right care is taken. I'm really oversizing for more voltage to allow for better power, longer useful battery life, and better cold weather performance with less heating but I'll take the range. There is a surprising amount of space in the back where that aluminum battery box is, where the fuel pipes and fuel pump are, where all of the air cooled ducting, and IMA electronics sit to where I don't even think I'd need to put any under the car where the gas tank would be removed from for modest range. 71.5kwh will be a challenge as he said it would definitely be easier with the cells he is using versus what most of us use and can afford.

Good luck John!

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IamIan

Discussion Starter · #70 · Oct 5, 2011

MN Driver said:
I'd be happy enough if he could do 350 miles off of 71.5kwh but if the Insight turns out to be capable of maintaining speed on the flat with good weather no wind load at 9.6kw steady state and really capable of 447 miles to 100% DOD (160wh/mile), I'll be ecstatic

I see a large range of factors still undefined ... only time will tell ... if it comes out as expected I anticipate in good conditions a bit over 500 Miles per charge 100% DoD ... but, even if it turns out as planed , in bad conditions the same vehicle might only go about ~200 miles on the same amount of energy ... There are just a lot of unknown variables that can have significant influence on the total amount of energy it takes to move the vehicle each mile of distance... I think he has a good buffer to have a good chance to do the ~350 miles ... but until other details get ironed out , I don't think it is a sure thing quiet yet.

@ 100% DoD his ~71.5 kwh is about ~2 Gallons of gasoline worth of energy ... in a drive system that I expect to average somewhere between 2 and 3 times as energy efficient as the OEM ICE ... which puts him at around the same range as a OEM Insight with about ~5 Gallons of gas in the tank... ~350 Miles from ~5 Gallons in a OEM Insight is doable ... but still in the range of YMMV.... +/- conditions and driving methods.

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JRP3

· #71 · Jan 18, 2012

John Wayland said:
I invite everyone to visit the 'Wayland's Words' section of my website to follow this project - the current posting has photos to go along with the story.

See Ya...John Wayland

<http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/blog/>

How is the project going? Pretty quite on the blog.

IamIan

Discussion Starter · #72 · Jan 20, 2012

I have also noticed the quietness ... but ... my guess would be ... it is a combination of Holiday down time ... winter at least for me with less daylight , colder, etc is just a low energy season for me ... and he is getting several things customized / worked on for him ... so there will also be the schedule coordination side of things.

I'm hoping to hear something new in the way of updates by spring.

Only time and the man himself will tell.

gor

· #73 · Feb 19, 2012 (Edited)

IamIan said:
I have also noticed the quietness ... but ... my guess would be ... it is a combination of Holiday down time ... winter at least for me with less daylight , colder, etc is just a low energy season for me ... and he is getting several things customized / worked on for him ... so there will also be the schedule coordination side of things.

I'm hoping to hear something new in the way of updates by spring.

Only time and the man himself will tell.

true, winter - not best time for best results
especially if you have sponsors and bound by contract what info and statements you can make

just would be great to hear from John - project alive, everything ok

------------

meanwhile, there is good news for EV community. Despite economy down, China dealing with range anxiety - progress of production EVs, its range, didn't stopped - Russia opening huge Lithium butt. plant; BYD e6 EV with 400 km (248 miles) range (not 186 mi -2011 spec) going to be sold in 2012 in over 20 BYD dealerships in Ukraine (in 2011 BYD had 13 dealerships - nearly in every major city of Ukraine )
http://www.byd.ua/ua/vehicle/e6.htm

John Wayland

· #74 · Feb 19, 2012

gor said:
true, winter - not best time for best results
especially if you have sponsors and bound by contract what info and statements you can make

just would be great to hear from John - project alive, everything ok

------------

Hello to All,

Sorry to have been AWOL - have had a rough past year.

The Silver Streak project is back on track. It's not easy stuffing 258 large format cells (985 lbs.) in the tear drop shaped Insight - while achieving the goals of safety, weight balance, thermal management, and lowest CG.

There are three separate cell enclosures that in total make up the 318V, 225 ah, 71.5 kWh pack. We've been reworking the front under-hood cell enclosure to make it fit, and are ready to test-fit the under-body gas tank area enclosure. The third one will be installed in the hatch area IMA/battery space below the hatch floor. There are no cells aft of the rear twist beam, so no heavy weight back there and the original flush-mount sunken twin 12 sub enclosure gets to stay

The hatch area will actually have a been more storage capacity than when the car was a hybrid with the sound system's beefy amp rack bump just behind the seats - now displaced by a lower profile bump for the hatch floor cells. In addition to the BMS, charger, and J1772 connectivity, the competition grade sound system is quite a feat to finish, as it's being redesigned to be as rad as it was before the tear-down, but with the amps flush-fitted at hatch floor level.

As with all my conversions, the electric motor has to stay in clear view, but since it's a rare EV1 motor sporting the 'GM' data tag, it 'really' has to be in clear view The air cond. system adds to the complexity of getting it all right under the hood.

I am hoping to have the car done in time for this June's big 'Greenwood Classic' car show in Seattle, and plan to drive Silver Streak round trip from Portland - 350+ miles, without charging.

When I feel I have something more interesting for others to read, I'll post it at 'Wayland's Words' at the Plasma Boy Racing web site.

See Ya...John Wayland

Reactions: 1

GizmoEV

· #75 · Feb 19, 2012

Thanks for the update, John. Glad things are still on track. We'll have to see if you can come up to a LCEVA/LCCEVC meeting when it is finished. I can hardly wait to see it and get ideas for when I convert my 2000 Insight.

IamIan

Discussion Starter · #76 · Feb 20, 2012

John Wayland said:
I am hoping to have the car done in time for this June's big 'Greenwood Classic' car show in Seattle, and plan to drive Silver Streak round trip from Portland - 350+ miles, without charging.

Cool.
Unfortunately to far for me in RI ... I'll have to enjoy it vicariously through others.

John Wayland said:
When I feel I have something more interesting for others to read, I'll post it at 'Wayland's Words' at the Plasma Boy Racing web site.

See Ya...John Wayland

Thanks for taking the time.

meanderingthemaze

· #77 · Jun 11, 2012

It would be great to know how the suspensions mods are done, so that others can safely convert on that platform. They really built that car to very tight tolerances. The max payload is only 400lbs, which includes passengers! Even with lightweight lithium, it's easy to go over tolerances.

IamIan

Discussion Starter · #78 · Jun 11, 2012

meanderingthemaze said:
It would be great to know how the suspensions mods are done, so that others can safely convert on that platform. They really built that car to very tight tolerances. The max payload is only 400lbs, which includes passengers! Even with lightweight lithium, it's easy to go over tolerances.

Well ... Wayland was able to pull out a bit over 400 pounds in the strip down part of the conversion.

So ~800 Pounds or ~360 kg to work with.

If you are willing to tone down the power to a bit more like the OEM acceleration ... I think there is room for lower ranges that would still be reasonable for many people without the suspension upgrades ... although those suspension upgrades might be wanted anyway ... even if the weight is not more than OEM.

For example ... You could use a EMRAX motor ... give you a peak for acceleration of about ~60kw from only a ~12kg Motor ... There are a variety of controller options ... but should be able to do it easily under ~10kg ... even if you eat another ~40 kg or so in cooling, wires, battery boxes,etc ... you still have ~300kg or ~660 lbs to use for batteries without need for the suspension upgrades ... although it might not be a bad idea to do anyway.

At 100Wh/kg battery ... and there are plenty of others out there better than that ... ~300 kg is about ~30kwh of battery capacity potential ... in the light weight aerodynamic Insight Body that is about ~150 miles or so per charge... at ~150 wh/kg and the same ~300kg , you're up to about ~45kwh , or about ~220 Miles per charge.

Wayland is going beyond this of course ... he is going for much more than 60kw of peak acceleration ... I think he's aiming more for about ~137 HP ( which is about double the OEM ) ... and he is aiming for about ~71kwh of battery capacity ... but not everyone would need both the increased power and that much range ... so others might not have to push it as far as he is aiming for.

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rochesterricer

· #79 · Jun 11, 2012

The Wayland's Words blog hasn't been updated since October

MN Driver

· #80 · Jun 12, 2012

If you don't need as much weight as they do, aka not a huge pack that's quite as expensive and aim for closer to 100 miles of range with a 20kwh pack you'll be around 400 pounds for the battery. You'll pull the weight of everything in the IMA box and the exhaust out, which won't weigh as much as you might think(It's in Wayland's vlog). At that point you can use the Matiz springs but that might not be enough spring, although I'm going to give it a shot when I convert mine since I have the springs already. If that doesn't work, people have fitted cut Miata springs(recent post in the Matiz thread), and there was another thread with cut Aveo springs. With the extra battery weight, cutting the springs would either be reduced or eliminated depending on how the springs handle the weight. You can always experiment by putting the springs on and then adding weight to the car where you are going to put it, water softner salt bags or really anything with the appropriate weight placed in the right spot should give a rough idea of how much the car will sink into the suspension. ..that's if you are asking in order to convert yourself with less battery weight(which I would recommend as 350 miles is more than most average gasoline cars go before they get filled).

Of course, Wayland's much higher weight has me curious how they are going to handle it too, we'll hopefully get some info in a future update. Hoping we get another update soon.

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