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'wittle 'wesistor (Mini Jeep)

16340 Views 291 Replies 7 Participants Last post by  Functional Artist
For my next creation, I've been thinking about building a go kart sized jeep (mini-Jeep)
...but first, here is some Jeep info.

"The Jeep marque has been headquartered in Toledo, Ohio, ever since Willys–Overland launched production of the first CJ or Civilian Jeep branded models there in 1945. Its replacement, the conceptually consistent Jeep Wrangler series, remains in production since 1986. With its solid axles and open top, the Wrangler is the Jeep model that is central to the brand's identity.

At least two Jeep models (the CJ-5 and the SJ Wagoneer) enjoyed extraordinary three-decade production runs of a single body generation.

In lowercase, the term "jeep" continues to be used as a generic term for vehicles inspired by the Jeep that are suitable for use on rough terrain. In Iceland, the word Jeppi (derived from Jeep) has been used since WWII and is still used for any type of SUV.

Prior to 1940 the term "jeep" had been used as U.S. Army slang for new recruits or vehicles, but the World War II "jeep" that went into production in 1941 specifically tied the name to this light military 4x4, arguably making them the oldest four-wheel drive mass-production vehicles now known as SUVs. The Jeep became the primary light 4-wheel-drive vehicle of the United States Armed Forces and the Allies during World War II, as well as the postwar period. The term became common worldwide in the wake of the war. Doug Stewart noted: "The spartan, cramped, and unstintingly functional jeep became the ubiquitous World War II four-wheeled personification of Yankee ingenuity and cocky, can-do determination." It is the precursor of subsequent generations of military light utility vehicles such as the Humvee, and inspired the creation of civilian analogs such as the original Series I Land Rover. Many Jeep variants serving similar military and civilian roles have since been designed in other nations.

Development – 1. Bantam Reconnaissance Car
When it became clear that the United States would be involved in the European theater of World War II, the Army contacted 135 companies to create working prototypes of a four-wheel drive reconnaissance car. Only two companies responded: American Bantam Car Company and Willys-Overland. The Army set a seemingly impossible deadline of 49 days to supply a working prototype. Willys asked for more time, but was refused. American Bantam had only a small staff with nobody to draft the vehicle plans, so chief engineer Harold Crist hired Karl Probst, a talented freelance designer from Detroit. After turning down Bantam's initial request, Probst responded to an Army request and began work on July 17, 1940, initially without salary.

Probst drafted the full plans in just two days for the Bantam prototype known as the BRC or Bantam Reconnaissance Car, working up a cost estimate the next day. Bantam's bid was submitted on July 22, complete with blueprints. Much of the vehicle could be assembled from off-the-shelf automotive parts, and custom four-wheel drivetrain components were to be supplied by Spicer. The hand-built prototype was completed in Butler, Pennsylvania and driven to Camp Holabird, Maryland on September 23 for Army testing. The vehicle met all the Army's criteria except engine torque.

Development – 2. Willys and Ford
The Army thought that the Bantam company lacked the production capacity to manufacture and deliver the required number of vehicles, so it supplied the Bantam design to Willys and Ford, and encouraged them to enhance the design. The resulting Ford "Pygmy" and Willys "Quad" prototypes looked very similar to the Bantam BRC prototype, and Spicer supplied very similar four-wheel drivetrain components to all three manufacturers.

1,500 of each model (Bantam BRC-40, Ford GP, and Willys MA) were built and extensively field-tested. After the weight specification was revised, Willys-Overland's chief engineer Delmar "Barney" Roos modified the design in order to use Willys's heavy but powerful "Go Devil" engine, and won the initial production contract. The Willys version became the standard jeep design, designated the model MB, and was built at their plant in Toledo, Ohio. The familiar pressed-metal Jeep grille was a Ford design feature and incorporated in the final design by the Army.

Because the US War Department required a large number of vehicles in a short time, Willys-Overland granted the US Government a non-exclusive license to allow another company to manufacture vehicles using Willys' specifications. The Army chose Ford as a second supplier, building Jeeps to the Willys' design. Willys supplied Ford with a complete set of plans and specifications. American Bantam, the creators of the first Jeep, built approximately 2,700 of them to the BRC-40 design, but spent the rest of the war building heavy-duty trailers for the Army.

Final production version jeeps built by Willys-Overland were the Model MB, while those built by Ford were the Model GPW (G = government vehicle, P = 80" wheelbase, W = Willys engine design). There were subtle differences between the two. The versions produced by Ford had every component (including bolt heads) marked with an "F", and early on Ford also stamped their name in large letters in their trademark script, embossed in the rear panel of their jeeps. Willys followed the Ford pattern by stamping 'Willys' into several body parts, but the U.S. government objected to this practice, and both parties stopped this in 1942.

The cost per vehicle trended upwards as the war continued from the price under the first contract from Willys at US$648.74 (Ford's was $782.59 per unit). Willys-Overland and Ford, under the direction of Charles E. Sorensen (vice-president of Ford during World War II), produced about 640,000 Jeeps.

Jeeps were used by every service of the U.S. military. An average of 145 were supplied to every Army infantry regiment. Jeeps were used for many purposes, including cable laying, Sawmilling, as firefighting pumpers, field ambulances, tractors, and, with suitable wheels, would run on railway tracks."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeep

I came across this drawing
...& it seemed like a pretty good guide

So, I'm thinking maybe ~50% should work for a mini jeep
...so, I'll just have to calculate a ~2:1 reduction ;)

Wheel Tire Wood Font Rectangle
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OK, Let's get back to the battery box (again)

The Mini-Jeep will be powered by (1) 48V 50AH 2kWh Chevy Volt Module (surprised?)
...so, the battery box will house "it"
...plus, the Shunt (a measuring device, used with the PZEM-051 Power Meter)
&
I'm going to try & keep the HV inside of the box (48VDC is actually considered low voltage but, I'm trying to set it up "as if" it were HV)
...so, I'll mount the (2) Speed Controllers right on the side of the box
...& the 48V 50A Circuit Breaker (this unit is dual purpose as a resettable fuse & the Main Power Disconnect)
...& also, the charge port (the receptacle for connecting the charger) too
Handwriting Wood Rectangle Font Tree

Now, lets discuss BMS's

All BMS'a are Battery Monitoring Systems
...& they all connected to (each cell)
...& monitor each cell, individually

There are (2) main types of BMS's
...Passive (Battery Monitoring System)
...Active (Battery Managment System)

A Passive BMS is just a monitoring system
...that "passes" the information to the user
...& the user must make the decisions
...& then, "act" upon them decisions (if & when, necessary)

An Active BMS monitors the pack
...but also, has the ability to "act"
...& "switch" things "On &/or Off (if & when, it deems it necessary)

Like:
Under-Voltage protection (Low Voltage cut-off)
Over-Voltage Protection (High Voltage cut-off)
Over Current Protection (High Amp draw cut-off)
Temperature Protection (High or low temp cut-off)
Balance Protection (Individual Cell Balancing)


So, whether to use a BMS is not the question
IMO if your using a Lithium battery you should monitor it (at the very least) ;)

The question is, does the specific battery pack being used, need (or would it be best to use) an Active BMS or a Passive BMS?
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The point of using seamless chrome-moly tubing is it's much lighter, stiffer, and does not have a weld seam that can crack and fail compared to water pipe.
IMO Exotic materials (like Chrome-Moly tubing) are for competition purposes
...like high stress situations
...or where your trying to gain a competitive advantage
...or even trying to keep up with your competitors

FYI:
1" chrome-moly tube
...weighs ~0.66 lbs per ft
...but, costs (over) ~$10.00 per ft.

Another option,
1" DOM Steel Tube
Weighs ~0.60 per ft.
...& costs ~$6.50 per ft.

A513 DOM Round Steel Tube, is a welded mechanical round steel tube with the internal weld seam removed creating a smooth internal surface. DOM Round Steel Tube has been drawn over a mandrel to produce a tube having more exact dimensional accuracy and tolerances, and a very smooth inside and outside finish. DOM Round Steel Tube is ideal for more stressful applications requiring higher quality, increased mechanical properties, uniformity, strength, and soundness.
Applications: race car frames, roll cages, motorcycle frames, spindles, rollers, shafts, engine mounts, bushings, cylinders, telescoping, etc.
Yield Point =70,000 +/- psi
Tensile Strength = 80,000 +/- psi

Whereas,
1/2" Schedule 40 waterpipe (7/8" OD)
...weighs ~0.93 lbs. per ft.
...but, only costs ~$2.00 per ft.
  • Specifications: ASTM A500 Grade B; ASTM A53 Gr B, Type E, Tested
  • Applications: frames, roll cages, truck racks, trailers, railings, etc.
  • Workability: Easy to Weld, Cut, Form and Machine
  • Mechanical Properties: A500 - Tensile = 58,000, Yield = 46,000+/-
So, IMO the huge difference in price
...drastically outweighs, the much smaller difference, in weight (per ft.)
...& even the mechanical properties (Tensile & Yield) aren't really that much different ;)

So, would the average DIY go kart , yard kart or even parade car even benefit, from being built out of the slightly lighter &/or stronger material? :unsure: (probably not)
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4130 has almost double the ultimate strength, and 50% higher yield strength of your water pipe, meaning lightness and less flex. It's not weight per foot, it's that you need less section to get the same frame properties as waterpipe which means a lower weight per foot section.

The price of all metals is freaking outrageous these days, anyway. $15/lb? 🤦‍♂️

For eyeball builds, water pipe might be fine. You don't care if it's even double the weight of an engineered 4130 space frame and have a trained eyeball after building a dozen or so variants of these things. And if it breaks, weld it back up and add some metal to it.
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It's not weight per foot, it's that you need less section to get the same frame properties as waterpipe which means a lower weight per foot section.
To build a mini-vehicle frame, that can accommodate a full size person
...you need to use several feet of material
...so, "less section to get the same properties" isn't really helpful

* Ex. the main frame rails would need to be at least 48" (x2)
...& that's no matter what material is used ;)

So, "if" the specifications of (whatever) material (& design) are sufficient to handle the Static & Dynamic stresses imposed on it
...then, using some other material, with a higher strength specification, doesn't really add any additional benefits to the project (except for, maybe a little bit of weight reduction)
but,
The significantly additional cost would be a huge detriment to any DIY project.

** Over the years I've seen so many projects
...where the person was so intent on doing it "the best way possible"
...that they (usually by "running" out of money) are NEVER able to actually complete the project (& it saddens me) everytime :cry:
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Before making any decisions about a BMS, let's look into the requirements of both
...a 48V system
...& 48V Battery packs

For simplicity's sake, let's take look at this, from an old golf cart point of view

An older 48V golf cart usually was powered by either
...(4) 12V Lead Acid Deep Cycle batteries
... or (8) 6V Lead Acid Deep Cycle batteries

The voltage specs of an average 12V lead Acid battery is
...Low: ~10.5V
...Nom: ~12V
...& High: ~ 13.5V
&
The voltage specs of (4) 12V Lead Acid batteries would be
...Low: ~41V
...Nom: ~48V
...& High: ~54V

So, as far as a BMS (Battery Management System)

Under-Voltage Protection
The Under-Voltage protection was provided by the Speed Controller

Which for a 48V cart, the Low-Voltage cut-off was usually pre-set to ~41V
...& "if" the battery pack dropped below ~41V it would automatically "shut the system down"
(to help protect the batt pack from over-discharging)

Over-Voltage Protection
The Over-Voltage Protection was provided by the Battery Charger
Which was in control, of re-charging the batteries (& the High-Voltage cut-off)
...& would automatically shut the charger off, when the pack was re-charged up, to the pre-set limit
(to keep the batt pack from over-charging)

Over Current Protection (High Amp draw cut-off)
The Over Current Protection was provided by the Speed Controller (sometimes)

Temperature Protection (High or low temp cut-off)
They usually didn't have any temperature monitoring or cut-off type abilities available

Balance Protection (Individual Cell Balancing)
The monitoring or balancing, of the individual cells (or even modules) was usually not provided
...or even "worried about" AFAIU
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Now, let's look at the specs for a Gen 1 (12S) 48V 50AH Chevy Volt module
(like I'm going to use, to power the Mini-Jeep) :cool:

The individual cell voltage specs for a Chevy Volt module are
...Low: ~3.25V
...Nom: ~3.7V
...& High: ~4.15V
&
The voltage specs for a whole (12S) Chevy Volt module are
...Low: ~39V
...Nom: ~44.4V
...& High: ~49.8V

Now, let's compare the specs of a 48V Lead Acid Battery pack
...& the specs of a (12S) 48V 50AH Chevy Volt module

Lead Acid: Low: 41V, Nom: 48V, High: 54V
&
(12S) Chevy Volt: Low: 39V, Nom: 44.4V, High: 49.8V

As you can see a 48V Lead Acid pack, has a usable voltage range from ~41V thru ~54V
,,,& a 12S 48V Chevy Volt module has a usable voltage range from ~39V thru ~50V (so, pretty darn close) ;)

As far as "Managing" a Chevy Volt "Battery" module:

1.) If a (12S) Chevy Volt module is used on/with a standard 48V system (with a ~41V pre-set cut-off)
...the SC would provide the Under-Voltage protection
...by shutting the system down at ~41V (leaving a bit (~2V) of a "safety margin")

2.) If a (12S) Chevy Volt module is re-charged with a Lithium battery charger (top charge cut-off pre-set to ~49.8V)
...the battery charger would provide the Over-Voltage protection
...by automatically shutting off, when the pack has been re-charged to the pre-set limit

3.) A (12S) Chevy Volt module can easily discharge over 200A constant (& ~350A max)
...&/so, if used on a system that doesn't/can't draw over ~ 100A
...the system doesn't really need (a secondary form of) Over Current protection

4.) If using a (12S) Chevy Volt module on a 100A max system (& then, re-charged with a small 48V 10A charger)
...the modules temperature really shouldn't need to be monitored
...or any kind of Temperature Protection provided

5.) Chevy Volt modules are "known" for their well matched cells
...& how well their cells, stay "in balance"
...so, Balance Protection or active cell balancing shouldn't be necessary
But,
"It's" still a Lithium battery pack
...so, periodic monitoring of the cells is recommended & will be done (just to be sure) :)
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Now, let's look at the specs, of the system that will motivate the Mini-Jeep.

It's going to be motivated by (2) MY-1020 48V 1,000W brushed motors
...& controlled by (2) YK-31 48V 1,000W brushed Speed Controllers (~$120.00 per motor/controller set)
48V 1000 W Electric Drive Motor w Reverse Controller+ #35 10T Sprocket f GoKart 784956421323 | eBay

The Motors are rated at ~20.8A (ea.)
...so, (2) running simultaneously should draw ~42A
&
The Speed Controllers are rated at 28A
...& have a pre-set Low Voltage Cut-off of 42V
Font Gas Number Temperature Auto part

So, as far as a BMS, I'm thinking:
The Low-Voltage Cut-off (built into the SC) will provide the Under-Voltage Protection

The Yewi UY-600 48V 10A battery Charger will provide the Over-Voltage Protection
Font Gas Electronic device Automotive radiator part Auto part

Here are the Charger specs (right out of "the book") ;)
Book Handwriting Font Writing Publication

* Remember, we'll be powering these (2) little motors with a Chevy Volt 48V 50AH module
...so, we shouldn't need any kind of Over Current Protection
...or any temperature monitoring or Temperature Protection
&
As I mentioned previously, these Chevy Volt Modules are so well matched, that I will just periodically monitor the individual cell voltages
...but, not have any active Balance Protection
&
I believe a 48V 50A Circuit Breaker, should be sufficient for Over-all System Protection, in this application

* FYI: this basically the same concept/system that I have been using (successfully) on my ElMoto for ~5 years now
...& also, on my Hell-raiser kart since last summer :cool:
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How do you know how much charge you have left?

Kind of a PITA (Phrase of the Day here on DIYEC) if you drive the Jeepette to your girlfriend's house, the UVP shuts it down just as you're pulling out of her place (pun intended), and you have to call your wife to come and pick you up.
How do you know how much charge you have left?
By looking at the gauge (PZEM-051)

Haven't you watched any of my videos?

I've done a whole bunch of them, specifically recording the Power Meter data
...& it can easily be seen, as to how you can use the voltage reading, as a "fuel" gauge ;)
It starts off with a "Full Tank" at 49.8V
...& the voltage level slowly but, steadly drops, down to (Nearly Empty) ~42V
Kind of a PITA (Phrase of the Day here on DIYEC) if you drive the Jeepette to your girlfriend's house, the UVP shuts it down just as you're pulling out of her place (pun intended), and you have to call your wife to come and pick you up.
I know (What is PITA?) look what I started 🤪
...but, with only a ~50A (total) draw
&
An average speed of ~20 MPH
...& using a ~50AH module
...(I believe) it should have like a ~20 mile range

* Not "girlfriend"
..."sister-wife" :sneaky:
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The good book (no caps, people) says the weakest cell determines charging, not the total voltage of, in your case the shoe fits, the "pile" (an old term for "battery").

Therein lies the danger of your method. If one cell goes wonky, you could get windravered.

@windraver
The good book (no caps, people) says the weakest cell determines charging, not the total voltage of,
Yup, I agree
That's the Main reason WHY, I only use & work with OEM modules (specifically Chevy Volt modules)
...because they have been professionally designed (& that design was rigorously tested)
...& their cells have been professionally tested, matched & sorted
...then, professionally assembled, welded & re-tested (with a very high level of quality control)
Then,
A "prospective" battery module (or pack) gets professionally & thoroughly tested, on the intended application (vehicle)

I also agree, DIY or self-built battery packs scare me too ;)
...because "we" don't have (or access to) most if not "all of the above"

Therein lies the danger of your method. If one cell goes wonky, you could get windravered.
Yup, I agree (with this too)
...& would ONLY use (or recommend) this method on a module (or pack) that has been thoroughly tested
...& all of its cells, are "known" to be, "well balanced"
But,
I wouldn't EVER use (or recommend) this method on a QUESTIONABLE or DIY batt module (or pack)
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How do you know how much charge you have left?
I couldn't find this video last night (for some reason) :unsure:

This video has a lot of info about Chevy Volt modules
* Notice the graph behind the guy.
The line that starts on the top left
...& has a pretty steady downward "slope" represents the dis-charge curve of Chevy Volt (or NMC cells)
&
The line that starts on the lower left
...& has a more "level" dis-charge curve, represents Lipo cells

So, Lipo outputs a more consistently level, steady voltage (the power level stays steady then, drops off HARD)
...but, because of this, monitoring the voltage meter doesn't tell you much (or useful as a "fuel gauge")

Whereas, the dis-charge characteristics of NMC cells isn't quite as steady (the power level steadily drops)
...but, because of this, monitoring the voltage meter is informative & can be used as a "fuel gauge" ;)
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You certainly can. No argument you can. The question is whether you should.

You can read your 41V pack cutoff voltage in your 12S pack with one cell at 1V due to a fault and its awesomely-matched pals are at a legit 3.64V.

Unless you check every cell voltage each time before you charge, you won't know you are plating one cell until it starts smoking.

While you can argue a BMS cell balancer is unneccessary, a cell monitor is still a really good idea, even if you are the cell monitor (a voltmeter that shows each cell's voltage on a bargraph, for example.

But the wiring is half the battle done then it's just money and a temperature sensor or two or three or...

You can get away with a lot of stuff...until the one time you can't.
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You certainly can. No argument you can. The question is whether you should.

You can read your 41V pack cutoff voltage in your 12S pack with one cell at 1V due to a fault and its awesomely-matched pals are at a legit 3.64V.

Unless you check every cell voltage each time before you charge, you won't know you are plating one cell until it starts smoking.

While you can argue a BMS cell balancer is unneccessary, a cell monitor is still a really good idea, even if you are the cell monitor (a voltmeter that shows each cell's voltage on a bargraph, for example.

But the wiring is half the battle done then it's just money and a temperature sensor or two or three or...

You can get away with a lot of stuff...until the one time you can't.
WTF
Do I have to draw you another picture? :unsure:

You asked me to show & explain how "I do" my mini-vehicles
...& you keep CRUSHING me, with ALL of these NEGATIVE (-) vibes :confused:
No! Not @ you...this is explaining to others that read this thread about the risks that may be involved in doing a stack voltmeter as a SoC indicator. "So cheap, so easy, I'll do this with my car build."

You've been successful doing what you do. It's not intended to have you change what you do.

Realize a lot of people watch a few videos, look at a couple of threads, and consider themselves well equipped to architect a conversion. And they stick to their guns, even when you tell them not to do what they plan to do.
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Note it says, low skill levels which is not you.

So, before it burns in their D-K expertise, they need to question what THEY are doing and be aware of the risks.

Sorry it comes across as whacking on you or that YOU are doing something wrong. It's not intended that way. For a gokart, this may be good enough. If a person's garage or house burns down during charging of their kart or car, they will have been the ones who made an INFORMED decision to use a voltmeter and who got lazy about regularly checking every cell in a steel box like you plan to include.
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5
2014 Chevy Volt 16kWh 360V Lithium battery pack
Tire Vehicle Automotive tire Motor vehicle Asphalt

(1) 2kWh 48V 50AH Lithium battery module (with coolant channels)
Wood Musical instrument Gas Electronic instrument Machine

...& (1) 2kWh 48V 50AH Lithium battery module (without coolant channels)
Waste containment Road surface Wood Gas Waste container

Coolant Channels For Sale
Wood Automotive lighting Beige Fashion accessory Metal

High quality
..."only" slightly used
...& quantity discounts :sneaky:
Hood Motor vehicle Toy Vehicle Bumper
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Before trimming (~9"W)
Wood Gas Motor vehicle Automotive exterior Automotive tire

Table saw does most of the work
Automotive tire Bumper Grille Motor vehicle Automotive exterior

Finished off with a Multi-tool
Gas Machine Cylinder Wood Engineering

After trimming (~7"W)
Gas Technology Electronic device Audio equipment Composite material

(~9"L)
Gas Wood Road surface Audio equipment Folk instrument

(~10.5"T)
Ruler Office ruler Wood Tape measure Tool

New module size ~7"W x ~9"L x ~10.5"T
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Now, with accurate measurements, we can move on to bending up the battery box

The measurements I had on the design drawings were really close
...but, I wanted the box to be "tight" around the battery module
...& not need to add any combustible materials (spacers or padding) which would "feed" a potential fire &/or create smoke

The box will be kinda like a Clam Shell with flanges in the front & rear for mating (top & bottom halves)
...& also, mounting to the chassis

The sides (of the top & bottom halves) will be flat & smooth
...but, will interlock (to form a mostly enclosed box)

So, I bent the flanges first
Table Wood Gas Automotive exterior Machine

...then, the main bends front & back
Wood Composite material Gas Plank Automotive exterior

...& then, the sides (had to get creative for the hold down/clamp apparatus)
Wood Flooring Floor Rectangle Hardwood

Bottom of the box
Wood Table Rectangle Flooring Automotive exterior
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