[Woodsmith]

Woody,

Great news about HRH. Post a picture on this site if you can.

It's a senior HRH too so I am quite nervous in case my stuff isn't up to scratch on the day or security have an issue somewhere.

Sound like you have the motor set up well in hand. what you describe for drive shafting should do the job. Think about an overdrive jackshaft set up to maybe try to get the top speed up around 5mph. Over all it would be more usable. Belt drive should be fine.

I can use a bigger drive pulley to get almost any speed but I was working on 4:1 or 3:1 reduction as a starting point. Also I am not sure what rpm the motor will pull yet.

Couple of questions about the Tractor Thingy (called TT in the future).
General questions:

Does the TT

• Have a real differential? Yes.
• Have any kind of brakes? No, But I was thinking of a transmission brake on the drive pulley or use the plug braking of the controller.
• Have a reverse? No, but I can reverse the motor as the brushes are neutral set for its design voltage.

Questions related to the potential front end:

• What size will the OD of the final rear wheels and tires be? I am thinking of starting off with a set of old 205 55 16" tyres off my car on steel rims giving a 23" diameter but it will depend on getting suitable rims cheap, otherwise whatever else I find.
• What will the center to center width of the final rear tires be? Not sure yet, will see what the wheels are like and then I will make spacers, figuring on about 24" centres to a maximum width of, say, 30".
• What diameter front wheels? I have a pair of 8" diameter trolley wheels or I can use the 15" diameter wheels that came with this axle.
• What is the planned width (center to center of the tires)? As above.

Suggestions:
See if the lawn tractor yard might not have a couple of usable spindles or even a completefront axle with wheel and tires. The spindles alone will save you half of the figuring and work because the ackerman steering offset and KPI is already built into the units.

They are just the budget ride on mower type where an 'L' shaped rod doubles as king pin and axle threaded through folded tin work. The steering is another 'L' shaped rod that gives 2/3 turns lock to lock.

If you are going totally from scratch a good general spec. for the ackerman steering offset is 15 degrees per side and a good general KPI is also 15 degreese. For the standard garden tractor front wheel that will put the SAI contact close to the center of the tire with a 2 degree +- camber.

From there, once you know front and rear tire diameters it is easy to set up caster, trail, camber and SAI.

I know you might be saying, is this needed on something only going am couple of miles an hour? But I bet that in the end it will go faster, plus it will be heavy with the batteries so you might as well make steering as acurate and easy as possible.

A thought:
Check on what if any costs if any are involved import wise if I were to send you a pair of spindles as a gift. They would probably be classed as used auto parts or some such. I have three or four pair sitting around that I will never use. I don't think the shipping would be too bad. I'll weigh them and see.

Thank you, that would be wonderful. I am sure we can blag customs into letting though a late Christmas present.
I can appreciate the preference for good steering due to the weight and future fun factor so good spindles would be a great starting point.

As far as the Big 13, I guess I better start a build thread. I'll take my camera over with me next week and snap a few of the motor worl we are doing at the shop.

TT forever,
Jim

I will look forward to it.

 

[Jimdear2]

Have any kind of brakes? No, But I was thinking of a transmission brake on the drive pulley or use the plug braking of the controller.

The pully in the picture looks like it has a couple of surfaces the you could make a nice disc type brake work on.

What size will the OD of the final rear wheels and tires be? I am thinking of starting off with a set of old 205 55 16" tyres off my car on steel rims giving a 23" diameter but it will depend on getting suitable rims cheap, otherwise whatever else I find.

Twenty three inch overall is a good starting point. Most of the garden tractors over here use a 23 or 26 inch diameter agracultral or grass tire so there are many wheel and tire combos around that would give you a wide low, pressure flotation tire later on if you want it. Using 23 inches would allow you to go to ag tires and wheels without affecting the front end. Lets lock it in at 23 inches rear tire diameter. Those usally mount to a 10 inch diameter wheel. Make sure the hubs on the axle will clear. I don't have a set of 10 inch wheels handy but I think the smallest ID is around 7.5 inches.

What will the center to center width of the final rear tires be? Not sure yet, will see what the wheels are like and then I will make spacers, figuring on about 24" centres to a maximum width of, say, 30".

What diameter front wheels? I have a pair of 8" diameter trolley wheels or I can use the 15" diameter wheels that came with this axle.

What is the planned width (center to center of the tires)? As above.

Lets lock it in at 30 inches center to center for now. I think that the 15 inch diameter wheels would better serve because larger diameter handles soft stuff better. Give me a proposed final length and we can both start sketching in a final product.

They are just the budget ride on mower type where an 'L' shaped rod doubles as king pin and axle threaded through folded tin work. The steering is another 'L' shaped rod that gives 2/3 turns lock to lock.

I think you are going to want at least 2 to 2.5 turns lock to lock. If you can't find anything premade, I have sucssfully built steering systems using chain and sptockets. We can look into that later.

Thank you, that would be wonderful. I am sure we can blag customs into letting though a late Christmas present.
I can appreciate the preference for good steering due to the weight and future fun factor so good spindles would be a great starting point.

PM me and we can see whats up, I'll weigh the spindles and see what postage will be.

I'll do a first sketch and trade you for your ideas. I'll send it along in a day or so. Picked up a chest cold and with my lungs I have to stay in bed. Doing E-Mail on my netbook and wireless is about my limit for the next little bit.

Later,
Jim

 

[Woodsmith]

All sounds good so far.
In between waxing my table I have been in the workshop stripping and cleaning the axle.

The hubs have one set of four clearance holes that will take M6 bolts and three threaded holes that take some UNC bolts. They are very hefty.

The motor is a little wide to line up easily.
I will have to move the big driven pulley outwards somehow so that the motor is more central.

I have put the axle on stands to get an idea of layout and proportions.

As it stands the wheel base is around 44" and flexible. The axle stands are a little high giving a 25" effective wheel diameter off the bench but it is close enough to do for now.
I was thinking of using these batteries and the layout would allow four of them to sit in a 2x2 long thin layout from the axle case to the front end. Each battery is 510mm long x 240mm high x 110mm wide so I would have a pack size of 1020mm x 240mm x 220mm weighing in at 148kg.
I will need to establish the batteries are suitable before I can build the front end to accommodate them.

I would use smaller batteries but they cost a bit more and I was thinking that these would also give the MR2 enough 'get up and go' to get it legal, I hope.

 

[Jimdear2]

Woody,

I like it. Rear motor makes sense.

Suggestions;

Best put all your battery weight up front. You will be shocked at how easy that front end is going to come up. As far as power, those Gel cells should work OK, but I heard the gells dont take high draw, deep cycleing well. Probably not a problem with the tractor (I get a half hour running at almost full throttle out of 4 very used 45 ah AGM batteries) but might be with the car if you need to go any distance. Another thing with gells, don't forget that the can be mounted at any angle.

A thought on motor alignment. Maybe a jackshaft or a 1 to 1 right angle drive?

The front spindles I'll be sending you are 3/4 inch. They are made from bent 3/4 inch round stock, machined and then the steering arms are positioned and welded. I would love to send you what is in the eBay pictures except that axles of eithe one are cast iron and weigh about 20 plus pounds.

Cub Cadet axle
http://cgi.ebay.com/1967-Cub-Cadet-...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5885cc97ab

John Deer Garden tractor axle
http://cgi.ebay.com/1974-John-Deere...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5885ad1a9c

The drag link arm are what the bottom bushing of the axle rests on. Very simple stuff.

The wheels will be retained by either a snap ring or a flat washer and bolt or cotter pin. I don't remember what type I have here. I'll send you a picture as soon as I can get out to the shed. We are goin through some global warming here . 20 degrees F (-17 C). The warmest its been all week.

Jim

 

[Woodsmith]

That's great, I can make an axle from some 70mm x 50mm x 3mm box section.

I will have a look for other battery options but I am doubling or trippling the cost with conventional deep cycle ones that are also big enough for the car. I am only expecting the car to move enough to be tested and made legal.

I was thinking of a right angle drive for the motor while I was working on it. I will need to see what I can find. There was a pile of worm and wheel gearboxes at the scrap yard but I ignored them last week as there was too much mangled machinery around them. Probably too much reduction anyway.

I started on the frame for the TT.

I had some 40mm x 5mm angle from the scrap metal yard so I used that to for the bottom part of the frame. It is a bit small but it will do as a start and I will make a top frame over the batteries and then brace the whole thing into a girder bridge. If I can find some 50 or 60mm angle that would be better.
I need the TT to be CKD so that I can get it back off the bench and out of the basement so the four bolt attachment to the axle is really good.
I also need to get some extraction fitted as welding indoors isn't nice.

 

[Jimdear2]

That's great, I can make an axle from some 70mm x 50mm x 3mm box section.

I will have a look for other battery options but I am doubling or trippling the cost with conventional deep cycle ones that are also big enough for the car. I am only expecting the car to move enough to be tested and made legal.

I was thinking of a right angle drive for the motor while I was working on it. I will need to see what I can find. There was a pile of worm and wheel gearboxes at the scrap yard but I ignored them last week as there was too much mangled machinery around them. Probably too much reduction anyway.

I started on the frame for the TT.

I had some 40mm x 5mm angle from the scrap metal yard so I used that to for the bottom part of the frame. It is a bit small but it will do as a start and I will make a top frame over the batteries and then brace the whole thing into a girder bridge. If I can find some 50 or 60mm angle that would be better.
I need the TT to be CKD so that I can get it back off the bench and out of the basement so the four bolt attachment to the axle is really good.
I also need to get some extraction fitted as welding indoors isn't nice.

Woody,

WOW, you don't fool around once you start something.

A thought on the pully. It looks like it is keyed and pinned to the shaft. could you drive out the pin and turn the pully around so the snout is towards the gearbox then redrill and repin it. That looks like it would give you another inch.

Looking at the rear hubs with the three bolts. I remember seeing some French vehicles that used a three bolt pattern. Any chance they are the same?

On the front wheels make some spoked hubs and bolt them into the 4 bolt holes. Get some tubing that will comtain 3/4 inch ID bearings or bushings and make spokes from flat stock, Weld them to the hub on an angle then bolt or weld them to the wheel. Made a rear wheel for a Motorcycle Ice Racer with side car like that once. Used an old steel hub from a something motorcycle (can't remember) and a 15 inch car rim we had cut the center out of. We had the widest tire out there. This was back in the days when a 4 inch Harley rim and tire was the widest thing out there.

Don't say welding indoors around me. Just saying the words make my lungs clench up.

You keep going like this and you will finish in time to plow the last snow this year.

Jim

 

[Woodsmith]

Yes the pulley is keyed and I am soaking it in WD40 to get the set screw out. Reversed it will give about an inch but I would like 3". I may make up a shaft extension for it and just move it out where it fits best.

I need to get to a scrap yard and measure some wheels to see if there is anything that will fit. I would like to be able to find some 16" wheels off a Ford Transit twin wheel. The off set would save making up spacers to increase the track width and I would be able to use the tyres I have or use dumper tyres later though that would increase diameter.
At the moment it is whatever comes first.

The front wheels will probably just be a steel tube welded through a steel disc and bored to take bearings and then turned true to fit the wheels.
Again, the scrap yard had some 8" and 10" discs cuts from 10mm plate, dozens of them, and I didn't get any. I will see if there are any left tomorrow.

There was some snow this morning but only a dusting. I am hoping that there won't be any more. The cold makes my hands hurt too much to work metal.

 

[Dalardan]

About adding a shaft to move your pulley 3" further than your differential, I'll bring my 2 cents here.

I've recently made a Formula SAE car with a snowmobile engine developping around 55hp. Using the stock CVT, it have been quite interesting in means of power, slipping 22" OD slicks of 7" wide. The problem is that on the secondary pulley of the CVT, there was 3" of room between the pulley and the first bearing. This brought flex in the secondary shaft as a bending moment was applied to it (lever effect). This brought the pulleys nearer and made then unaligned. In the end, it even torn our frame! Why I'm telling you here is that you'll what to add a support bearing the nearest possible to your pulleys to cancel this moment and keep the center-to-center of the pulleys exact.

By the way, moment here is used a "flexion torque" of the pulley shaft. Not really sure how to say it.

Keep up the news, it's going really fast and is evenly interesting!

Dalardan

 

[Woodsmith]

Hi Dalarden,
Yes I will be adding an extra bearing if I extend the pulley shaft. Where I can I would prefer to have shafts in shear between two bearings instead of in bending, especially if the shaft is long. I will need to see what the scrapyard angel has to offer in alternatives first.

So today I popped into a car breakers to find a couple of steel rims to use for the back of the TT. The intention was to get 16"x6" ish as I have a couple of old tyres from my car that would do as good slicks to start with. Also using 16" rims would allow me to use Land Rover off road tyres or dumper truck tyres. The chap pointed me to a skip full of old rims and told me to find what I wanted from the scrap. I found a couple of 16" x 6.5" steel wheel rims that felt a bit light but had a lot of offset to widen the track a bit. £5 the pair so I had them and left. They were aluminium with electronic pressure sensors on the valves. Not sure what car they were from but they will do.

So this is where we are at now with the tyres on the rims:

I will make some spacers to make them fit and then use then inside out.

I also went to my friendly scrap metal yard and came out with something that I don't know if it will be a bargain or a waste of money. However, more on that in my MR2 thread as it is more relevent there.

 

[Jimdear2]

Hi Dalarden,
So today I popped into a car breakers to find a couple of steel rims to use for the back of the TT. The intention was to get 16"x6" ish as I have a couple of old tyres from my car that would do as good slicks to start with. Also using 16" rims would allow me to use Land Rover off road tyres or dumper truck tyres. The chap pointed me to a skip full of old rims and told me to find what I wanted from the scrap. I found a couple of 16" x 6.5" steel wheel rims that felt a bit light but had a lot of offset to widen the track a bit. £5 the pair so I had them and left. They were aluminium with electronic pressure sensors on the valves. Not sure what car they were from but they will do.

I will make some spacers to make them fit and then use then inside out.

I also went to my friendly scrap metal yard and came out with something that I don't know if it will be a bargain or a waste of money. However, more on that in my MR2 thread as it is more relevent there.

Woody,

Nice find on the wheels. The wire looks promising as well.

I beleive I'll have those spindles on their way to you maybe this Wednesday. You will have to handle anything at your end to get them out of hock. Their value will be about $20.00 USD.

They are made from 3/4 inch bar stock that has been bent, machined and had the steering arms positioned and welded to so you can look for wheel bearings and tubing that will work with that for your hubs. Most tractors using the cast iron axles just bored the axle and ran the spindles in the cast iron with grease (should be obvious in the eBay pages I sent).

If you make an axle up out of box section tube and round tube you can run them in the tube OK as long as you grease the heck out of them (that's how I did my double engine tractor). I also ground grease reliefs into the spindle to make sure the grease got distributed

 

[Woodsmith]

Thank you Jim, I will let you know when they arrive.

I am up late trying to work out a spacer/adapter design to fit the wheels.
The wheels have 5 studs at 108mm pcd and a 60mm bore. I have found out that they are Renault: Espace, 21 turbo, Val Satis wheels, interesting but not helpful.
The transaxle hubs have 3 studs at 118mm, or more likely 4 5/8" pcd.

I'd like to get about 2 1/2" to 3" spacer, probably a disc on each end of some 3" pipe, turned and drilled to fit the studs. I will need to have a 60mm spigot for the wheels though and a flange to locate to the axle hub.
It is made awkward for fitting the wheels back to front as the outside doesn't have an easy flat face for mounting.

 

[Jimdear2]

Thank you Jim, I will let you know when they arrive.

I am up late trying to work out a spacer/adapter design to fit the wheels.
The wheels have 5 studs at 108mm pcd and a 60mm bore. I have found out that they are Renault: Espace, 21 turbo, Val Satis wheels, interesting but not helpful.
The transaxle hubs have 3 studs at 118mm, or more likely 4 5/8" pcd.

I'd like to get about 2 1/2" to 3" spacer, probably a disc on each end of some 3" pipe, turned and drilled to fit the studs. I will need to have a 60mm spigot for the wheels though and a flange to locate to the axle hub.
It is made awkward for fitting the wheels back to front as the outside doesn't have an easy flat face for mounting.

Woody,

Yep "sure" it's a pain to figure out stuff like that . . . NOT. Those kinds of things are what we do this for. Thats braging rights.

Here is a possible way to mount the wheels.

Bring the 5 bolts through the adapter plate. Then install 5 lug nuts backwards (taper out) install the wheel using standard nuts and washers properly tightened against the backiside of the wheel. This will center the wheel on the cones of the reversed lug nuts. You wont need the centering spigot although mounting would be easir=er if it were there. Since I'm not there looking at it, I'm sure there are refinements.

Looking good.

Jim

 

[Woodsmith]

Here is a possible way to mount the wheels.

Bring the 5 bolts through the adapter plate. Then install 5 lug nuts backwards (taper out) install the wheel using standard nuts and washers properly tightened against the backiside of the wheel. This will center the wheel on the cones of the reversed lug nuts. You wont need the centering spigot although mounting would be easier if it were there. Since I'm not there looking at it, I'm sure there are refinements.

Looking good.

Jim

Good idea, and there in lies the first small hurdle, finding lug nuts. Everything here uses bolts rather then nuts.

I have 4 lug nuts left from my first ever car, a 1972 Ford Escort mk1.

I shall make some, I think, if I can't find any. Back to ebay.




I am still pleasently surprised at how helpful and generous people are, you sending the spindles, jackbauer's vacuum switch, Jozzer's buggy motor, The chap at the tyre shop fitting the tyres for free and just now, I was outside chatting to some tree surgeons feeling a tree and they sharpened my chainsaw properly for me and showed me what I was doing wrong.
And my mum wonders why I help dig out driveways in the snow, send free firewood off to friends and do free jobs for some people.

 

[Jimdear2]

I am still pleasently surprised at how helpful and generous people are, you sending the spindles, jackbauer's vacuum switch, Jozzer's buggy motor, The chap at the tyre shop fitting the tyres for free and just now, I was outside chatting to some tree surgeons feeling a tree and they sharpened my chainsaw properly for me and showed me what I was doing wrong.
And my mum wonders why I help dig out driveways in the snow, send free firewood off to friends and do free jobs for some people.

A very smart person I know of once wrote (I don't know if he originated it) I paraphrase;

"When you've recieved help, don't pay back PAY FORWARD"

Robert Heinline . . . Smart Man !

 

[Woodsmith]

Pay it forwards is good and healthy, I like that. There was a film about that wasn't there?

Here it is: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0223897/



I got the big pulley off this afternoon and had a play with bits I had that might fit the shaft. I came up with this for race gearing! Funny how the little sprocket was a perfect fit including keyway!

I also found a triple pulley block that fitted the shaft so I just need to open the keyway a bit to use it. I figured that I could machine it and use it to mount the bigger chain sprocket and then fit the small one on the motor shaft and then house the whole thing in a chain case that allows for bearings both sides of the sprockets and for tensioning and safety.
The input drive shaft can then stay in place while the motor is pulled for the car.
The tooth count is 12 and 42 so there will be a good reduction to allow for higher motor speeds.

Image seems to be upside down, not sure what Photobucket is playing at.

 

[Jimdear2]

Pay it forwards is good and healthy, I like that. There was a film about that wasn't there?

Here it is: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0223897/

I'll have to see if I can find it and watch it. Amazon for $2.00 used I'll order it.

I believe I first heard this back in the late 60s early 70s. Robert A Heinlein (Sorry about misspelling the first time around) was a Science Fiction writer of some note. He used the quote in one of his stories. It appears he did not originate it though. I checked the quotes directly attributed to him

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/r/robert_a_heinlein.html

If you've got some time read through them. I think you'll find the interesting.

I try to base a lot of my actions around these ideas and those of Ayn Rand.

I got the big pulley off this afternoon and had a play with bits I had that might fit the shaft. I came up with this for race gearing! Funny how the little sprocket was a perfect fit including keyway!

I also found a triple pulley block that fitted the shaft so I just need to open the keyway a bit to use it. I figured that I could machine it and use it to mount the bigger chain sprocket and then fit the small one on the motor shaft and then house the whole thing in a chain case that allows for bearings both sides of the sprockets and for tensioning and safety.
The input drive shaft can then stay in place while the motor is pulled for the car.
The tooth count is 12 and 42 so there will be a good reduction to allow for higher motor speeds.

Image seems to be upside down, not sure what Photobucket is playing at.

Looks like you have things in hand. A idea if you use the triple pully and if your trans has a neutral you might consider a power take off i.e. another pully and shaft with a slip belt clutch.

Jim

 

[Salty9]

A quote from Heinlein I remember after too many decades is:

"An artist sees no greater diversity in nature than a lawyer sees in the truth"

 

[Woodsmith]

Looks like you have things in hand. A idea if you use the triple pully and if your trans has a neutral you might consider a power take off i.e. another pully and shaft with a slip belt clutch.

Jim

Now there's an idea!
Transaxle is two speed with a neutral. I guess orinially intended so that the mower could be pushed about without it turning over the petrol engine.
I could have a small winch and a crane over the front like the old steam traction engines, or I could run a small hydraulic pump as I have a little 500kg truck loading crane.

I could get carried away.

I'll have a read about Heinlein, thanks.

 

[Jimdear2]

I could get carried away.

I'll have a read about Heinlein, thanks.

Woody,

Come on . . . getting carried away is what it's all about, thats where the fun is. First you dream about what you want, then you build what you can afford.


Just got back from my partner's place. We finally managed to get the fields out of the barrel. I didn't beleive it, but the fields are heavier then the barrel.

Picked up a set of spindles, but need to find the steering link arm and couple of other pieces tomorrow morning out in the shed. Should have them boxed up and on their way tomorrow. I might have some 1/2 x 20 lug nuts I could throw in, I have to look. Probably not a good idea the SAE pitch thread bolts might cost you a fortune. Let me know if you think you can use them.

Jim

 

[Woodsmith]

Thanks Jim.

I think I am going to get a box of M12x45 cap screws and then eiher turn a cone onto some nuts or get some Ford wheel nuts on Ebay. They seem to be selling in packs of 4 and I need 10!

While I am getting the bolts I will probably sort out an order for other misc high tensile nuts and bolts. Buying them in small quantities from the local DIY shed is pointless as they are made of cheese there.

I am going to have to try and make the hub adaptors into some kind of simple disc brake with a parking brake lock if I am to use the driven pulley as a PTO.

I decided to take a load of scrap to the scrap metal yard today, I was cleaning my car out to take my furniture to college tomorrow and 'got carried away' in the tidy up. Came back with £76. Not bad for the bits of dead engine and some old push bikes and some of the lead from my roof repairs. That's half the cost of the cable covered.