So, I searched the site for info on edison or iron-nickel batteries, came up empty. These seem like a possible solution to me, especialy considering the extremely long lifespan. Any thoughts/experiance/facts/theorys? Sorry about the esoteric questions folks, but I have to get this stuff out of the way, so I don't continue to waste time thinking about it if it just won't work.
Edison Batteries
arftist
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Hell yeah the setup you described would be totally sweet. I don't think replacing the electrolyte is that big of a deal but we should try getting our hands on the chemicals listed and just make a small one but I don't see in the description what is used as a separator between the plates or is one needed? Does each cell of the battery have a separate cell chamber where the electrolyte of each cell can't touch the other? and I wonder what kind of mask to use so we don't breath in any fumes?
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NiFE sags terrible but actually is much more energy dense than FLA because the cells can be FULLY discharged (even reversed) without damage.
That means you can use all 200ahr (usually a little more), although maybe not at nominal voltage.
Also as long as you keep voltage higher than you need performance would not be an issue but on that same regard you would need an amazing DC DC and controller to tolerate the massive voltage swing, likely contactors would work best.
As for the electrolite any base will work, potassium is better, sodium stuff is easy to find (but not ideal)
Cheers
Ryan
That means you can use all 200ahr (usually a little more), although maybe not at nominal voltage.
Also as long as you keep voltage higher than you need performance would not be an issue but on that same regard you would need an amazing DC DC and controller to tolerate the massive voltage swing, likely contactors would work best.
As for the electrolite any base will work, potassium is better, sodium stuff is easy to find (but not ideal)
Cheers
Ryan
Hi folks,
I was referred here from solarpowerforum <dot> com where there's also a NiFe discussion going on.
The one thing I noticed and a poster there w/ Edison batteries confirmed is electrolyte/water loss is greatly mitigated by the use of an oil layer to keep evaporation and electrolyte degradation due to CO2 exposure at bay. Google "Edison Oil Bottle" and see that it's an OLD way to combat the losses. The poster in question used refrigeration oil.
While the (dis)charge losses may be high and the power delivery be lackluster, these shortcoings might be addressed w/ magnetic electrolyte stirring methods or alternate chemistrys. As was pointed out before, electrolyte stirring benefits ANY battery.
The earlier post that mentioned Ian Soutar on PESWiki should have said something about Dr. Robert O'Brien too as he is the one responsible for some interesting concepts and patents to do w/ the movement of electrolyte in a battery.
I read a little more info on the Prius forums about it (The O'Brien process) saying adding ?gallium? (I forget, but that sounds right) to the electrolyte and "magnetizing" the battery was the magic process.
While this seems far fetched, if it were to have some merit the NiFe battery would be the perfect candidate as all the plate materials are magnetic. Check out his patents on electrolyte stirring using magents. No guarantee it works....but.......
I wish I had a more complete understanding of chemistry as it would greatly help in "homebrewing" some experiments in this vein, but according to what I've read the charging reaction that happens between the plates is NiO becoming more complex NiO (like Ni2O3, 2 NiO4, etc.) by taking the O from ferrous oxide and transforming the FeO to pure iron. So even though the plate materials never mix w/ the electrolyte, there is still "plate swelling" during (dis)charge states. I'm looking into other alkaline battery metal chemistries to see if there are any that might "complimentary" to NiFe (silver/iron, nickel/zinc, etc.) to augment the NiFe weaknesses.
Right now I'm interested in making a large home bank of "homebrew" NiFe for grid backup @ the very least. Grid delivery has gotten dicey ever since a big wind knocked out a lot of the midwest grid for many days a couple years back.
While this might not go very far as EVs are concerned, some of the trumpted new technologies that might revolutionize battery tech are available to try out on a low-tech approach, e.g. Aerogels.
From what I understand, the huge amount of surface area aerogels would be able to offer for current delivery, and the reduced weight of the plate material would be very desirable for EV battery use.
This is the direction I'd like to try.
While it may be a PITA, if I was able to add 10% to charge efficiency and subtract 10% from losses I think NiFe would be the perfect battery for me with minimal enviromental impact and long life.
Just my $0.02.....
Oh, the mention of cobalt earlier in the thread is a good one for NiFe as well. A 1979 Westinghouse report on NiFe of the time said that a 5% mix of that w/ the Nickel plate material made for much better battery longevity.
I was referred here from solarpowerforum <dot> com where there's also a NiFe discussion going on.
The one thing I noticed and a poster there w/ Edison batteries confirmed is electrolyte/water loss is greatly mitigated by the use of an oil layer to keep evaporation and electrolyte degradation due to CO2 exposure at bay. Google "Edison Oil Bottle" and see that it's an OLD way to combat the losses. The poster in question used refrigeration oil.
While the (dis)charge losses may be high and the power delivery be lackluster, these shortcoings might be addressed w/ magnetic electrolyte stirring methods or alternate chemistrys. As was pointed out before, electrolyte stirring benefits ANY battery.
The earlier post that mentioned Ian Soutar on PESWiki should have said something about Dr. Robert O'Brien too as he is the one responsible for some interesting concepts and patents to do w/ the movement of electrolyte in a battery.
I read a little more info on the Prius forums about it (The O'Brien process) saying adding ?gallium? (I forget, but that sounds right) to the electrolyte and "magnetizing" the battery was the magic process.
While this seems far fetched, if it were to have some merit the NiFe battery would be the perfect candidate as all the plate materials are magnetic. Check out his patents on electrolyte stirring using magents. No guarantee it works....but.......
I wish I had a more complete understanding of chemistry as it would greatly help in "homebrewing" some experiments in this vein, but according to what I've read the charging reaction that happens between the plates is NiO becoming more complex NiO (like Ni2O3, 2 NiO4, etc.) by taking the O from ferrous oxide and transforming the FeO to pure iron. So even though the plate materials never mix w/ the electrolyte, there is still "plate swelling" during (dis)charge states. I'm looking into other alkaline battery metal chemistries to see if there are any that might "complimentary" to NiFe (silver/iron, nickel/zinc, etc.) to augment the NiFe weaknesses.
Right now I'm interested in making a large home bank of "homebrew" NiFe for grid backup @ the very least. Grid delivery has gotten dicey ever since a big wind knocked out a lot of the midwest grid for many days a couple years back.
While this might not go very far as EVs are concerned, some of the trumpted new technologies that might revolutionize battery tech are available to try out on a low-tech approach, e.g. Aerogels.
From what I understand, the huge amount of surface area aerogels would be able to offer for current delivery, and the reduced weight of the plate material would be very desirable for EV battery use.
This is the direction I'd like to try.
While it may be a PITA, if I was able to add 10% to charge efficiency and subtract 10% from losses I think NiFe would be the perfect battery for me with minimal enviromental impact and long life.
Just my $0.02.....
Oh, the mention of cobalt earlier in the thread is a good one for NiFe as well. A 1979 Westinghouse report on NiFe of the time said that a 5% mix of that w/ the Nickel plate material made for much better battery longevity.
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I'd like to know how to make a bank of homebrew NiFe myself. I did recently come across an interesting publication concerning sealed NiFe batteries:
http://nickel-iron-battery.com/sealed-nickel-iron-battery.pdf
I also came across an interesting paragraph concerning NiFe batteries:
http://www.nickel-iron-battery.com/
A maintenance free sealed NiFe battery would last "forever", and be recyclable, which would be perfect for a low-impact vehicle...
http://nickel-iron-battery.com/sealed-nickel-iron-battery.pdf
I also came across an interesting paragraph concerning NiFe batteries:
http://www.nickel-iron-battery.com/
A maintenance free sealed NiFe battery would last "forever", and be recyclable, which would be perfect for a low-impact vehicle...
Thanks for all the info. I am still thinking about these batteries. One of the complaints people have about electric cars is the battery replacement every few years...
If these things could be manufactured 100 years ago, how hard would it be these days?
If these things could be manufactured 100 years ago, how hard would it be these days?
G
Guest
·They are still heavy and bulky. They work but..............
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224 Posts
Back in the day, the battery cases were gallon glass jars. The plates were suspended in the jars. Old farm houses had a row of those cells-jars, stored under the house, in the cellar. I have seen many of these, but, no one knew anything about them, so, I never investigated.
My dad used to buy or have given to him, the old Delco or Fairbanks 1 cylinder engine-gen sets. Try googling Vintage generator sets or something along those lines.
This is what the Old Wincharger and Jacobs wind turbines charged for farm use. Might even find a collector that has a set of those glass jar batteries.
I had a fairbanks set WITH Edison metal case batteries, in the original wooden bettery crates. Sold it to Jim Gaston at Gastons Resort on the White River North of Cotter Arkansas, back in '85.
My dad used to buy or have given to him, the old Delco or Fairbanks 1 cylinder engine-gen sets. Try googling Vintage generator sets or something along those lines.
This is what the Old Wincharger and Jacobs wind turbines charged for farm use. Might even find a collector that has a set of those glass jar batteries.
I had a fairbanks set WITH Edison metal case batteries, in the original wooden bettery crates. Sold it to Jim Gaston at Gastons Resort on the White River North of Cotter Arkansas, back in '85.
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4,329 Posts
If the chemistry is known, it should be possible to manufacture these even using patent information so long as they are not for resale. Patents only apply to products to be sold - you can use any process on file with the patent office to make something for yourself.
Given how much our materials handling technology has improved, it seems like you ought to be able to home-brew batteries fairly inexpensively.
There are even ways around resale. You can allow someone else to purchase materials, then sell your time to them as a consultant to aid in construction. Do it too many times and you are retailing, though, and subject to the patent protections.
Given how much our materials handling technology has improved, it seems like you ought to be able to home-brew batteries fairly inexpensively.
There are even ways around resale. You can allow someone else to purchase materials, then sell your time to them as a consultant to aid in construction. Do it too many times and you are retailing, though, and subject to the patent protections.
G
Guest
·I am quite sure that the Edison Battery Patent does not apply after all this time. So jump right in and start building. I am sure you can find some good companies that can build you some custom containers for your new Edison Style Batteries. Just make them in a skinny format so folks can squeeze them in where needed. I'd like to see that but realistically I doubt that it will happen. It's nice to hear that you want to see it happen.
Pete
Pete
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LiFePO4 cells should last 10 years or so, the average life span of a vehicle, and at the current rate of improvement replacements will be even better.
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They have a better usable energy density than lead, so they are no more heavy and bulky than lead, actually a little better.
G
Guest
·True, but cost to manufacture is in the cost realm of lithium. Lithium being the better choice means nickel/iron won't be the choice of battery. Lithium are also sealed and require no watering.
Lithium is the cats meow!
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I would gladly trade the weight and range of lithium for peace of mind knowing that if my BMS, my charger or any other number of systems fail I cannot destroy my pack.
A modern edison pack would still drive my little car 50 miles (maybe more) like lead but I would have no worries on overcharging, overdischarging or individual cell issues that both lithium and lead share.
A modern edison pack would still drive my little car 50 miles (maybe more) like lead but I would have no worries on overcharging, overdischarging or individual cell issues that both lithium and lead share.
Thanks for pointing that out.
They also have the ability to be overcharged without damage, and as a result of that, effectively offer more storage capacity.
The more discussians I have about electric cars on other forums and in public, the clearer it becomes to me that one of the biggest issues J.Q. Public has with electric vehicles is the inevitable battery replacement cost.
I am seriously considering starting an edison battery manufacturing plant.
The market would consist of household use for co-generation/solar and convertion of heavier vehicles such as works trucks to electric.
With electric cars going mainstream this year, the market for residential co-gen should follow.
Comments welcome.
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Overcharging a battery doesn't give it any more capacity. The high self discharge of the Edison's isn't exactly a selling point. They won't sell for EV's, so your market would be mostly stationary storage. Most people are more concerned with EV range than battery life, especially when lithium should last around 10 years or more, the average life span of a passenger vehicle.
Again, the most prevalent negative comment about electric vehicles on other forums I frequent is battery lifespan and replacement cost.
If a higher voltage charge doesn't amount to more usable current, I apologise for my ignorance. I don't think the market consists of one size fits all, ultimate technology. The longevity of edison batteries is a huge selling point and a huge positive for their users. A lot of people want electric F-250s and Chevy 3500s. This market is a little different than the car market. Weight and extremely long range are not issues. Longevity is.
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If you have the means by all means do, just make sure you have a variety of offerings as the military and the corporate interests would be your biggest buyers (as they were historically)
Also there are many proven and unproven improvements to NiFE over the years make sure you impliment them (or at least find ways to get them tested)
1. Eagle Pritchart sp? made the last modern NiFE an examination of their historic offering is a must
2. There have been workable water recombination systems around for decades definately worth a look on NiFE
3. Shape and size, something that fits everybodys battery boxes is likely a sucess
4. CNT carbon nano tubes have been shown to positively affect lead and lithium battery chemestries, the main problem with NiFE (and advantage) was the insolubility of the electrolite this could likely be solved with CNT and possibly increase the capacity, reduce resistance and reduce costs.
5. Nickle ain't cheap if another metal could be used with Iron and still have OK capacity you might find another winner with similar characteristics.
Good Luck
Ryan
Can you suggest a good starter size?
G
Guest
·Battery boxes are custom for each application. Kind of hard to make one size fits all. I'd like to see long skinny batteries that can be stacked to fit in low places. I still don't like the Nickel Iron in cars only because of the need to keep them watered and monitored visually to be sure nothing is plugged up or leaking. Batteries need to be free from any maintenance to be a viable source suitable for everyone.
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