[Yabert]

Which brings up a new question -- has anyone with a clutch ever had issues with the cooling fan sucking in clutch dust and contaminating the motor bearings?

Why suck? The Kostov motors don't push the air from Commutator End to Drive End?
I think the answer is yes, like the Warp motors done.

It's nice to see more picture of your problematic. Custom and strange shaped adapter will be needed.
If I consider longer adapter and shorter motor (K11 modified or K11 Alpha is 1.5'' shorter!!) I hope there are enough place to mount motor in straight line with your transmission.

 

[Old.DSMer]

Hi Yabert,
I was worried about the clutch dust being blown from the drive end into the motor bearings and brushes. Probably not going to be an issue or we would have seen this problem in other conversions.

 

[Old.DSMer]

Old.DSMer
Mine is first of the early second gen models. 2002-2005, bofre the facelift when the drivetrain was made 'on-demand awd' with a viscous coupling (I think) meaning it was predominantly fwd most of the time.

I see, so its the 'traditional' 4x4 where you should only use it on slippery surfaces. But then you know you are actually IN 4X4 when you want it! My Jeep used to have an extra differential inside the transfer case for 'full-time' 4wd. But that meant you could only have 1 wheel transferring power. It still worked very well and was much better than just RWD. The Talon has a viscous coupling. Given its age, it still seems to be performing great. I hope it holds up to the large torque from the electric motor.

Removing the gears sounds a good plan. And if 3-4-5 are close you could lose another and then only shift front-back like a high-low shifter. Might not need the clutch then.

Exactly. It would save weight and reduce rotating inertia and oil drag.

Do you have a build thread?

 

[tylerwatts]

No mine is full time 4wd. No transfer case. it is almost the same layout as yours but with central open differential rather than viscous coupling.

No build thread as I have no build as yet. Got loads of info off the web adn forum and still strategising which direction to go. No options are popping up al the time and there is litle documentation inteh west of Eastern Eurpoe's products and there seems to be abooming industry with great produts that I am trying to fin about, and also chinese (how dare I, I know) products are available and at good quality.

 

[Old.DSMer]

You do have more options in Europe. Especially with AC - as well as product support.

I would say the east has definitely evolved and improved. But I would not volunteer to be the first tester. But thats just me. I guess I prefer more tried and true products

 

[Old.DSMer]

Transfer Case Update

I've been spending alot of time scouring the web for existing parts I could modify. I also investigated a custom chain-sprocket design.

Turns out the most cost effective will be to utilize existing transfer case parts. The bearings, seals and couplings are readily available - just a matter of determining what will go where.

I still have to source an external electric oil pump because the chain requires pressurized lubrication.

I'm waiting on final costing of the aluminum case and 4140HTSR shaft - but have most of the internals worked out already. 4140HTSR is overkill, but I have access to some crops. The images don't show the flywheel or clutch, but they will be retained. The output shaft end copies the factory crank.

Sadly, I could not get enough room by eliminating the fan and shortening the rotor. And I didn't really want to hack up my nice new motor anyway

I still have to finish the motor mount for the auxiliary side. It will also incorporate an idler bearing for the front drive shaft (which was previously bolted to the engine block). Fun times....

 

[rwaudio]

How are you supporting the driving gear and clutch? The case end should be easy, however on the motor end are you going to add extra support (bearing) or just use a pilot bearing on the flywheel or similar and let the motor bearings take the load?

 

[Old.DSMer]

Driving sprocket will be directly attached to the K11. I can't find a bearing part number on that motor, but it looks beefy. And the shaft is very short, so it will have a small bending load.

Output sprocket will be attached to a double-supported shaft. I think I might replace the spherical with a tapered bearing and lock nut - just like a wheel hub. That will enable me to preload the drive end and keep things rigid.

The flywheel/clutch will mount up just like the original (not modeled up yet).

 

[Yabert]

Nice drawing Old.DSMer...
But sad solution! So much complex. And all this will reduce efficiency and reliability while increasing the weight...

Maybe can you send me the transmission and motor CAD (step, igs or ?) and I can try to find simpler solution on my side. I'm specially interested by your problem.

If no, I suggested you to build a double-supported hollow shaft on the motor side. Rigidity will be increase and the sealing will be easy. It's how than most manufacturer build their single speed gearbox.
You need to know than motor shaft is floating (can move on his axis (I guess 0.015'' to 0.060'')) to allow his expention under heating. Maybe that can cause your drive sprocket to move a bit (a problem?).

 

[Old.DSMer]

Modifying the K11 Motor

Maybe a Solution?


Thanks for your persistence in talking me out of the transfer case concept Yan and tylerwatts!!!!

In the spirit of the almighty KISS principle, I tore apart the K11 motor.

I can gain at least 2.5" by removing the fan and modifying the aluminum end cap. By the looks of that fan, an external unit with a shroud and some ducting would probably work much better anyway. If I trim a bit of the steel motor housing, I might even be able to gain 3".

So that all means I should be able to use a 3" spacer plate with a direct coupling to the flywheel/clutch. Yay!!!

So anyone have suggestions on removing that bearing? My splitter does not fit between the fan and race. And I don't want to use my gear puller because it only pulls on the outer race. So....what next?????

 

[onegreenev]

Re: Modifying the K11 Motor

I just used a gear puller. I too don't have my fan connected because it is too long to fit in the VW with the fan connected. I too plan on a shroud with blower hole and also feel it will be better. Mostly because I have that for my GE motor and you really don't need the internal fan. The other benefit is that removing the fan gives you access to the end shaft for other things. Like RPM sensors.

I had it in my VW Bug for awhile and now its going in my VW Roadster. Installed yesterday. Still need to build a shroud. For short runs it works great without the fan. Lots of open area for heat to just dissipate. For long runs I will need a fan.

I like my Kostov 11"

Pete

Mine is the older model that has a different sized shaft and bolt pattern. I put in a new brush ring and bearings and brushes.

Heat the bearing before pulling.

 

[Old.DSMer]

Thanks onegreenev! Glad to hear the motor runs well without the fan. External cooling has been discussed elsewhere and I'm sure there are some good resources.

I'd like to keep and re-use the bearing. If its heated, won't that toast the seals?

 

[onegreenev]

Yea thats the problem but if you more warm the bearing and direct maybe a tight flame to the inner race that slips on the shaft you may have no issues. Just flaming the whole bearing would not be so hot. I am more advocating to warming and not like red hot heating. Just warmer than the shaft. Might help slip it off.

 

[azdeltawye]

... Glad to hear the motor runs well without the fan. ...

Plus you'll have the added benefit of less noise. Those Kostov radial fans are extremely noisy at high rpms...

 

[Jesse67]

Hey Old.DSMer, are you in Alberta? I see you had a chance to drive RWAudio's Porsche in the Calgary area. I'm up in Edmonton, I'm helping with an EV and alternative fuel vehicle show and conference here April 27th. Sounds like RWAudio is bringing his car, should be a fun time! I put up a post about it under chit chat, check it out on this link.

Glad to hear you're going with shortening the motor over trying an offset drive! As for the transmission, I stripped out the transmission gears on the mini truck as direct drive through the transfer case to the diff gave a good ratio and I figured I wouldn't need any lower gearing which is all the trans would have provided anyways. I kept the empty transmission case as a convenient way to mount the motor to the integrated transfer case. It does work well in direct drive 95% of the time but there are situations where having a gear or two lower would be nice and it was a lot of work and hassle to disassemble the transmission and get it back together with missing gears! If I were doing it again I would just leave it as is. I don't know what the drag penalty would have been but in your case I doubt removing only one or two gears would make a noticeable difference. Unless someone has some data to prove me wrong? I like data!

Switching to lighter weight synthetic fluids will have a large impact for you though with two diffs and the transfer case along with the transmission. I noticed a big difference on cold mornings when I switched my trans and transfer case from 75W90 to this synthetic ATF,
http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=51&pcid=9.

I did a powertrain drag test with the wheels in the air before I switched and will do another before and after I switch the diff fluids to synthetic as well. It took 3.5kw to spin the tires 60km/hr in 4wd with the original fluids, it only took ~8kw to drive the truck that fast!

Good luck!

 

[Old.DSMer]

I am more advocating to warming and not like red hot heating. Just warmer than the shaft. Might help slip it off.

I might have to try this - but its going to be very difficult (almost impossible) to heat JUST the race. I'll have to think about it a little more.

I a previous job, we did heat races - but they were all 2pc bearings. I've never done it with a sealed 1pc.

 

[Old.DSMer]

Plus you'll have the added benefit of less noise. Those Kostov radial fans are extremely noisy at high rpms...

That will be a nice perk. Based on the shape of the fan, it was designed to move some air. But not necessarily efficiently or quietly. The K11-Alpha probably has a better, more efficient cooling setup with the external fan.

 

[onegreenev]

I have a nice mapp gas torch and can get right in close and quick. Heats fast and then give a sec for the heat to sink in then pull. I understand the issue with sealed bearings. Not too hot and get in close.

 

[Old.DSMer]

Hey Old.DSMer, are you in Alberta? I see you had a chance to drive RWAudio's Porsche in the Calgary area. I'm up in Edmonton, I'm helping with an EV and alternative fuel vehicle show and conference here April 27th.

Yep, Edmonton as well. I was going to look you up and get more info on that show. I'll definitely be there to view/chat! But no vehicle entry for me....

...stripped out the transmission gears on the mini truck as direct drive through the transfer case to the diff gave a good ratio and I figured I wouldn't need any lower gearing which is all the trans would have provided anyways. I kept the empty transmission case as a convenient way to mount the motor to the integrated transfer case. It does work well in direct drive 95% of the time but there are situations where having a gear or two lower would be nice and it was a lot of work and hassle to disassemble the transmission and get it back together with missing gears! If I were doing it again I would just leave it as is. I don't know what the drag penalty would have been but in your case I doubt removing only one or two gears would make a noticeable difference. Unless someone has some data to prove me wrong? I like data!

I'm planning on keeping the tranny stock for now. If I do end up removing any gears, I'll probably do a full rebuild and upgrade the internals to Stage 2 or 3 class so they can handle more torque. But I need to focus on getting it on the road first

Switching to lighter weight synthetic fluids will have a large impact for you though with two diffs and the transfer case along with the transmission.

Definitely agree - I switched everything to Redline as soon as I got the car.

I did a powertrain drag test with the wheels in the air before I switched and will do another before and after I switch the diff fluids to synthetic as well. It took 3.5kw to spin the tires 60km/hr in 4wd with the original fluids, it only took ~8kw to drive the truck that fast!

I plan on doing some wheels-in-the-air drag tests as well. I might even pull off the brakes to see how much extra drag they add compared to spinning just the drivetrain by itself.

 

[Old.DSMer]

I have a nice mapp gas torch and can get right in close and quick. Heats fast and then give a sec for the heat to sink in then pull. I understand the issue with sealed bearings. Not too hot and get in close.

I can borrow one - so I might give it a try.

I was also thinking that I'm not planning on keeping the fan anyway, so I can afford to "massage" it a little so my splitter fits