I purchased 10 motors sold a few and have a few left for $2000 apiece, I'm on the west coast.

I have a controller based on a microchip dsPIC33FJ64GS610A cpu. I'm using the SKiM modules from AZD but need to finish the driver board for the bridge.
I was hoping to use the AZD driver boards I have but I haven't figured out the pinout and don't have a connector for this board.

Alternately I could use a driver board from Semikron but I need to find the appropriate driver for these SKiM modules.

Thats where I'm at currently but next month I have more time and hope to get further along power up these motors.

Steve

 

Anyone got a working system? Seems a few of these motors have sold

 

try working with these folks...

http://forums.evtv.me/?forum=270147

 

try working with these folks...

http://forums.evtv.me/?forum=270147

I've got my motor working fine - just interested what other people are using. The should be plenty of controllers capable based on their specs, just wondering which have been tried.

Not interested in the DMOC like most people on the EVTV forum - its a POS if you ask me, and is currently just an expensive paper weight


But thanks for the link anyway

 

Hi,
Who bought one of these motors as a result of the AZD liquidation? I bought 2 for myself

I'd be interested to see what controller(s) other people are using the power them.

We are using our own controller the next month for prototype but will in future most likely buy the new TI-4520 controller HEC is making for this motors.
http://www.hec-drives.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=13&Itemid=3

 

This HEC unit is very interesting. They do not have pricing or links to distributors. Do you have any more information? Pricing?

 

I haven't personally used it, but I know the Rinehart controller can run these motors.

 

Got any info on this?

 

We are planning on using a Wavesculptor 200, going to start our build soon once parts are ordered sometime next week.

 

Of interest concerning the Siemens 5135 series is whether the specified value of 280-300A max input is merely a residual value from Siemens controller output?

The Siemens spec sheet lists the 5135 series at a max of 300A @ 750V for a max input of 225 kva and a listed max output of 200kw (88% efficient?).

If you apply that power at a lowly 350V it requires an input of 642A.

Now obviously the DMOC, Siemens, HEC, Brusa, etc... are not rated even close to that, but supposing one COULD find a 640A controller for the Siemens, would it handle that kind of input current? For 15 sec? For 30 sec?

Are the AZD Siemens under-rated by about 50% (105kw) and are actually good for 200+kw?

Just curious what folks think..

 

Of interest concerning the Siemens 5135 series is whether the specified value of 280-300A max input is merely a residual value from Siemens controller output?

The Siemens spec sheet lists the 5135 series at a max of 300A @ 750V for a max input of 225 kva and a listed max output of 200kw (88% efficient?).

If you apply that power at a lowly 350V it requires an input of 642A.

Now obviously the DMOC, Siemens, HEC, Brusa, etc... are not rated even close to that, but supposing one COULD find a 640A controller for the Siemens, would it handle that kind of input current? For 15 sec? For 30 sec?

Just curious what folks think..

No, these Siemens motors are wound and cooled for 300A max (also 138 series). They are made for high-voltage/highspeed applications and the same applies for the control applied. This means that current is limited to 300A, which gives us about 100kW, additional power is made through increase of voltage/speed. This concept gives higher total-efficency (meaning less cooling is needed)

 

I proposed what you are saying on another forum and was laughed off the page and ridiculed by fairly knowledgeable folks. Their response was that 'power' is 'power'.

Which is why I am posing the question here. If power is power, then the 5135 is good for 200kw regardless of input voltage (350-750V).

Food for thought: winding for the same rpm at lower voltage means using coarser wire. This 'implies' greater current carrying capacity.

Yes?

 

If power is power, then the 5135 is good for 200kw regardless of input voltage (350-750V).

Power is *not* power . One power is P=V.I, the other is loss P=(I^2).R
You can increase the voltage and power goes up linearly (if you can current limit), but if you increase the current, power goes up minus the exponential extra losses.

 

Yes, exactly.

So how does that figure against the theory that higher voltage motors of the same weight can magically produce more kw as Siemens spec sheets declare?

That is the critical issue.

Either the low-voltage motors are under-rated, the high-voltage motors are over-rated, or higher voltage means more power from the same motor.

One of these three paradigms is true. Which one?

 

So how does that figure against the theory that higher voltage motors of the same weight can magically produce more kw as Siemens spec sheets declare?

Where are you getting this info?

According to this document below, all the different voltage levels for the async 1PV5135 are around 60kw.... you might be getting confused with the larger 1PV5138, or the sync PM 1FV5135
http://w3.usa.siemens.com/us/internet-dms/Internet/MarineComm/General/Docs/ELFA_Data%20Sheet.pdf


What Tess said is correct, but the motor has to be wound for the different voltage/current ratings. Putting 325V and 248A into the 650V 124A 1PV5135 wont give you the same continuous power output

 

OK, I thought we all had the same base data. If not, here is the link:
http://www.hec-drives.nl/Specs Siemens 1PV51XX.pdf

That chart gives different KW outputs for the same weight 5135 motor varying from 105kw to 200kw.

This is a HUGE difference for a motor of the same weight.

 

OK, I thought we all had the same base data. If not, here is the link:
http://www.hec-drives.nl/Specs Siemens 1PV51XX.pdf

That chart gives different KW outputs for the same weight 5135 motor varying from 105kw to 200kw.

This is a HUGE difference for a motor of the same weight.

I'm not sure where Eddy got his info from, but the Siemens data shows the 1PV5135-4WS28 as ~150kW peak, as is the 1PV5135-4WS24.

You can see however, the continuous ratings decrease from the 4WS28 (67kW) to then 4WS24 (61kW) through to 4WS14 (45kW).
Higher voltage motors tend to have a higher kw/kg rating , but not normally this drastic.
I'd say itd have something to do with the fact the original motor design was the 4WS28, and the others seem to be a rewind of this. The amount of back iron and air gap etc would have been optimised for the HV winding, where the lower voltage windings are no longer optimal. Generally you would run your flux close to saturation, which would not be the case in the LV windings all the way to peak power. You can see in the torque-speed in the Siemens document that the peak torque drops off before 4k RPM in the lower voltage winding because it cant maintain the optimal flux.
Also, skin effect may play some role depending on the wire gauge of the rewind at the higher frequencies close to peak (4-5k RPM).
Any excess heat that cant be removed will decrease both continuous and peak ratings.

Perhaps also the test conditions are dependant on the controller and cabling, which obviously struggles more with the higher current capabilities.

To many variables with the minimal details released on the motor.

 

Out of curiosity, other than those on the HEC website, has anyone seen technical data or specifications for this motor which aren't marked "PRELIMINARY" ?

I did submit a request to Siemens, but... well, you know the kind of reply I got !

Cheers

Dave.

 

Out of curiosity, other than those on the HEC website, has anyone seen technical data or specifications for this motor which aren't marked "PRELIMINARY" ?

I did submit a request to Siemens, but... well, you know the kind of reply I got !

Cheers

Dave.

Look at metricmind.com

 

d.c. voltage = 300V
Asynchronmotor 1PV5135-4WS14
nN..... PN... MN ..IN .Popt .nopt nmax ..m ....J ...Mmax Imax M0 ..I0
[rpm] [kW] [Nm] [A] [kW] [rpm] [rpm] [kg] [kgm² [Nm] [A] [Nm] [A]
3500.. 50 ...136. 220 60.. 6000 10000. 90. 0,071 298. 400 160. 265

© SIEMENS AG Technische Änderungen vorbehalten Ausgabestand
08/2010 Index --Dokument unterliegt nicht dem Änderungsdienst

On Jack's forum the Siemens data is given with graphs.

120kva input (300v x 400A) = ~96kw output. (80% efficiency)

298nm at 400A up to 3000 rpm.

give me a minute here and I'll post the graphs so we are all looking at the same data...

 

The motor in question in this thread is the 5135-4ws14 which is a low voltage version made for AZD. As shown in the linked HEC spec sheet it is continuously rated at only 45kw and a peak of ~100kw.

The 4ws28 and 4ws24 are high-voltage versions of the same motor continuously rated at about 60kw with a peak of 150-200kw depending on the spec sheet.

Given that these all supposedly weigh the same, and have the same cooling system, even a small difference in efficiency at various voltages and windings would not account for the huge discrepancy in power.

It isn't unthinkable that the motor is 'derated' to match the AZD DMOC controller output and that paired with a more powerful controller this motor will 'come alive' .

Cheers.

 

It isn't unthinkable that the motor is 'derated' to match the AZD DMOC controller output and that paired with a more powerful controller this motor will 'come alive' .

Yeh but where might one find a 'more powerful controller'?

 

Major, we've all seen your experiments trying to 'prove' the dangers of going over 72V:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlPYikt_qvo

Please stick on topic.

 

This document seems to be genuinely from Siemens.
http://media3.ev-tv.me/Azure300VDC-400Acurve.pdf

It states 298Nm at 400A, 300V.

Extrapolating that torque/Amp relationship at higher current levels you get:
(obviously there are some increasing losses, these are just ballpark numbers)

370Nm at 500A
440Nm at 600A
520Nm at 700A
590Nm at 800A

Crank the voltage up to 400V (350V full load), and it should pull pretty good up to about 3500-4000 rpm.

Now we are talking..

 

This document seems to be genuinely from Siemens.
http://media3.ev-tv.me/Azure300VDC-400Acurve.pdf

It states 298Nm at 400A, 300V.

Extrapolating that torque/Amp relationship at higher current levels you get:
(obviously there are some increasing losses, these are just ballpark numbers)

370Nm at 500A
440Nm at 600A
520Nm at 700A
590Nm at 800A

Crank the voltage up to 400V (350V full load), and it should pull pretty good up to about 3500-4000 rpm.

Now we are talking..

Extrapolating that torque/Amp relationship at higher current levels you get:

Although this is an acceptable approximation with series wound DC motors, it is invalid to use for induction motors. Going beyond the manufacturer's stated maximum torque or current is undoubtedly past breakdown torque.

 

Torque-speed at 310V.

Efficiencies at 310V

 

So those charts were made with a 250A controller?

A peak of 70kw isn't gonna give it much of a leg up on the HPEVS systems.

 

So those charts were made with a 250A controller?

No, they're just the ratings at for 10minute continuous use at 35deg ambient with 8 l/min water cooling. This is the limit of the motor to withstand that power for 10mins - which is a long time by the way, and 70kW for 600seconds is nothing to scoff at.

The document later states "The cooling system was found to be quite
powerful: the limiting temperature of the inverter was never achieved, a reduction of power output was always due to the machine winding temperature." - And it's a 400A controller, so that should put your concerns at ease.

A peak of 70kw isn't gonna give it much of a leg up on the HPEVS systems.

A higher peak is given on the Siemens data nameplate as 3min rating, or 0.5min rating in the graph you linked.
The HPEVS is probably rated peak for <1min for marketing purposes (though i know nothing about the motor and haven't checked), you've got to compare apples with apples - and probably what's the most relevant is the continuous ratings. Some manufacturers rate at 60min, if so, the graph I provided shows about 55kW cont @ 35degC ambient.

If Siemens says the maximum current is 280A RMS (~400A peak) for <3mins, I'm inclined to believe them. You can push it harder say for 10seconds with diminishing returns if your only increasing current (hitting saturation), but it may take 10seconds to hit 150deg from 35deg, but 5minutes to cool back down to 35deg to do it again. Also if your increases the temp so quickly, you need very fast response of sensors and controller to turn it off in time without doing permanent damage to the motor.

It sounds like you are after a more powerful motor, then buy the 5138 or a PM motor.

 

It sounds like you have a very interesting document there. Is it available online?

Just curious what the 215V version might be able to do since there are now quite a few out there after the AZD sale.

Yes, there is nothing beyond the point of saturation except destruction, but the critical question is the amps just before saturation. I think 298Nm at 400A is fairly close, but not quite the limit.

I am sure that somebody will push that limit soon enough. Knowing humans

 

I think 298Nm at 400A is fairly close, but not quite the limit.
I am sure that somebody will push that limit soon enough. Knowing humans

Gotta get my water-cooled heatsink milled then i'll let you know

 

Well I haven't seen the inside of a DMOC 645 but inside AZDs latest rendition of controller the 845 they were using SKiM 606GD066HD modules rated at 440 amps at 70C or if you can cool the junction down to 25C then your rated to 550 amps. Not bad for a footprint thats only 10cm x 15cm.

Attached pics of these controllers. I have more than one. Same controllers as on the 645 (TIs 28F335 and 470 Cortex M3 device).

 

Cool.

Just to clarify, the Semikron Skim606GD066HD is rated at 641A at 25C and 512A at 70C. The nominal rating of 600A is good up to about 105F (42C).

I have the 606 in the Scott Drive 200 that is going into the 36 IH with the BLDC, PMAC, or whatever you want to call it.

While it is capable of over 250kva peak, with battery sag, some heat, and motor losses I figure roughly 180kw output.

 

Nice, good to see some progress being made. I might actually be able to turn the motor and controller I have into something more than expensive hunks of metal

 

I hope so! I want to see these things turned into some serious EVs.

 

Are those folks starting with the 'blank' DMOC's from the AZD sale or did they have the code installed?

Never mind, it is from a Ford Ranger, so it had code.

I think JR3P was referring to the AZD sale DMOC's.

EVTV has one working in their Trans-connect, but not the ones on the shelves.

 

Yeah I have a blank AZD unit. Didn't realize those in the videos were from Rangers.
Yes the link worked for me, you might need a different video player since it's an MP4. I downloaded it and used VLC player.

 

Actually in the comments he says the DMOC was a blank one from AZD that he loaded the firmware into. It's only the motor that was from a Ford Ranger.

 

The latest EVTV episode has this motor spinning with the DMOC 645.

 

Yeah, it's my favorite episode of EVTV yet because of that.