[MattsAwesomeStuff]

Simple answer NO and don't believe any of the experts on here... read my website, and search for mizlplix on here...

So, naysaying without actually contributing anything. Too lazy to even write out a URL. Great.

Seems that you sell motor rewinding services? Big shocker.

Nothing wrong with having an open discussion where you tell everyone they're wrong, but, at least contribute something other than declarations and vilifications.

 

[Ivansgarage]

ssssss

 

[MattsAwesomeStuff]

just posted through the years trying to help people with real data and the shit we went through

Well, what you've said isn't help or "real data". It's just showing up and saying "No, and everyone else is wrong."

I read your page on how you did motor rewinding, looks very professional. But it also doesn't back up what you said.

If you want to help, then it would be helpful to explain why this won't work, what the major obstacle is, and why rewinding is certainly necessary. Also, if there's parts of what other people said that are wrong, it would be helpful to point out which parts, and again, explain why. That would be a useful and helpful discussion.

Abrupt declarations don't help anyone learn anything.

 

[Ivansgarage]

waist of time

 

[cricketo]

You are the one that needs to do explaining, what controller are you gonna use, there is no controller that will run an off the shelf 3 phase motor, FOR and electric vehicle, pedal to the metal, you are talking 450 + amps and right around 60-80 amps cruise, NO off the self motor is gonna handle that, with there 3 or four 18 to 24 gauge wires... got it.... Just look at the max amps on a off the self motor... do you think those numbers are just BS? IF I was you, look at the Curtis Controllers with a cooling plate behind them, and retain your radiator with a small electric fan.... I started with a 5 hp motor, My last wind was 12 gauge wire, 8 in hand, 3 turns, four poles, LOCKED rotor, 225 foot pounds of torque... LOCKED rotor, understand?

Winding a motor by hand, With no pole connections...

https://www.youtube.com/user/Ivansgarage/videos

I only understood half of the things you wrote, mainly because your communication style sucks. Like others said, if you want to be helpful, do it the right way.

The main concern seems to be the fact these motors are intended for higher voltages (thinner winding wires) to achieve their rated power, and since it may be difficult (or impossible?) to find a motor controller that will deliver such voltages, the idea may be a non-starter.

Edit:
Sevcon has a line of high voltage controllers, up to 800VDC. Here is the datasheet Gen4 HVLP
The problem with these is their extremely high cost and also complexity of programming. Perhaps if scoring a used one for cheap was an option.

 

[MattsAwesomeStuff]

You are the one that needs to do explaining,

I did explain.

I might be wrong about it, perhaps you could be convincing, but I did explain.

You keep just being vague and making people beg for breadcrumbs of explanation. It's tedious to have a discussion with you.

there is no controller that will run an off the shelf 3 phase motor, FOR and electric vehicle, pedal to the metal, you are talking 450 + amps and right around 60-80 amps cruise,

Umm, sure there is. Any OpenInverter board would. The OP is an electrical engineer, I think he can figure it out.

A Prius Gen 3 inverter can handle 600V, 350 + 250 = 600 amps, and you can pick them up for $50-150. Just swap out the control board with the one of the exact same form factor from EVBMW.com. It even has a built-in boost converter to push the ~200v up to 600v (albeit, at some fraction of the inverter's full power).

A motor is a motor, it might not be an optimum choice (as almost everyone has said, probably not a good idea... advice that you said makes "everyone wrong"), but it's certainly workable.

NO off the self motor is gonna handle that, with there 3 or four 18 to 24 gauge wires.

Huh? What 15hp motor is going to have 24g (0.5mm, 0.02") wires? Wires that'll melt at 0.5A? How the hell are they getting 15hp out of 0.5 amp wiring? One designed to run on 22,000+ volts? What a ridiculous claim.

Like, I get it, yeah, if you were insistent on using it, it's probably easier to rewire it with heavier duty wire instead and lower voltage. But, that's not the only solution. It doesn't make everyone other than you instantly "wrong", and, it doesn't particularly make your solution all that good either.

IF I was you, look at the Curtis Controllers with a cooling plate behind them,

What is this, 2012? Who the hell is buying janky Curtis controllers in 2021? The world has moved on.

 

[Ivansgarage]

I give up, no more post.........

 

[brian_]

So, naysaying without actually contributing anything. Too lazy to even write out a URL. Great.

...

Nothing wrong with having an open discussion where you tell everyone they're wrong, but, at least contribute something other than declarations and vilifications.

I absolutely agree.

Seems that you sell motor rewinding services? Big shocker.

While Ivansgarage is apparently ashamed of what he posted (and so he deleted it), it does appear that he missed the point of the original question of the thread, which was clearly expressed in the title: "3-phase industrial AC motor, can it be used as is?" Rewinding a motor (which would address the operating voltage issue) is clearly not using the motor as-is.

 

[brian_]

waist of time

Yes, your attacks and nonsense certainly are a waste of time. But not a "waist" of time- what would that be, time above the hips and below the chest?

 

[brian_]

The main concern seems to be the fact these motors are intended for higher voltages (thinner winding wires) to achieve their rated power, and since it may be difficult (or impossible?) to find a motor controller that will deliver such voltages, the idea may be a non-starter.

Yes, that's the issue (relatively high voltage) which I identified from the first day of this discussion... although the voltage issue is with the battery as well as with the controller. The relatively high voltage means that the current is relatively low. Of course if pushing any motor past the rated power handling the associated current is always a concern... largely with cooling.

 

[brian_]

NO off the self motor is gonna handle that, with there 3 or four 18 to 24 gauge wires.

Huh? What 15hp motor is going to have 24g (0.5mm, 0.02") wires? Wires that'll melt at 0.5A? How the hell are they getting 15hp out of 0.5 amp wiring? One designed to run on 22,000+ volts? What a ridiculous claim.

He presumably meant three or four 18 to 24 gauge wires in parallel, for each of the three phase windings.

I'm not going to bother trying to work out the actual RMS phase currents, but 12 kW (as an example) at 480 volts RMS (a typical industrial phase voltage) would be (with unity power factor, which I realize is unrealistic) is only 25 amps RMS... split between three phases. If 18 gauge is good for 7 amps in general wiring service (who knows what is tolerable in a motor stator) and there are several of them, this is in the right order of magnitude.

 

[brian_]

The industrial motors are likely induction motors. There are three general sources of induction motors used in EVs:

1. motors built specifically for EVs and designed for EV battery voltage - Tesla's original motors (mostly now replaced by PM motors) are the best-known example
2. industrial motors ordered with windings suited to EV battery voltage - the Siemens motors used by Azure Dynamics (and still allegedly available from some EV conversion component suppliers) are a well-known example
3. industrial motor frames and rotors completed as EV motors by winding them for the desired voltage - HPEVS is the remaining big supplier of these

In all of these cases, the frame and other details are chosen to be of reasonable weight for the application. Even if rewound, a typical industrial motor is likely to be relatively heavy for the power output, because it is not designed to be carried around in a vehicle.

 

[brian_]

I started with a 5 hp motor, My last wind was 12 gauge wire, 8 in hand, 3 turns, four poles, LOCKED rotor, 225 foot pounds of torque... LOCKED rotor, understand?

Since repeating a term, even in capital letters, does nothing at all to help anyone understand it:

• In motor winding, "in hand" means in parallel, referring to the way a person doing this manually has multiple pieces of wire in their hand as they wind the wire into the motor (the stator, in this case).
  • 8 wires in parallel, each 12-gauge, can carry a lot of current as required for the low-voltage configuration of this rewound motor.
  • Multiple small wires in parallel are easier to fit into the stator slots and bend around the turns than one large wire of the same total cross-sectional area and current-carrying capacity; 8 x 12 ga has the same capacity as one 3-gauge wire.
  • This is irrelevant to anyone who is not winding (or rewinding) a motor, and this thread is about using a motor without modification, so the motor wouldn't be rewound.
• A "locked" rotor is not turning, whether it is held stationary for testing or just unable to turn the shaft because it is not producing enough torque.
  • Mechanically, especially when talking about engines and hydrodynamic devices (such as a torque converter in an automatic transmission) this is referred to as "stall".
  • In driving an EV, this is the situation in which the vehicle is stationary and the motor is being powered but the vehicle hasn't started moving yet because the accelerator ("throttle" control) hasn't been pushed far enough. The extreme would be if something was holding the car back (e.g. the brake is on) and the accelerator is fully applied.
  • This the highest-current case for an electric motor. It is a big deal for induction motors operated on a fixed frequency power supply (so just "plugged into the wall" instead of having a variable frequency drive such as the inverter used in an EV).

 

[CaptD]

I have to sell my [edited by moderator]

 

[MattsAwesomeStuff]

I have to sell my

Take it to a classifieds thread if you'd like to sell something.

 

[rishimaze]

The point of an inverter is that it inverts the voltage to a negative pulse. The inverter isn't like, a center-tapped transformer that gives half the voltage positive and the other half negative.

An inverter is a clever bit of kit! From the perspective of the device, it sees real AC. The inverter is simply taking the DC voltage from the battery and switching which end of the device is connected to batt+ or batt-. Do this back and forth in a nice sinusoidal way and the device needing AC "thinks" it's getting AC. The device "sees" positive and negative going portions of a sine wave so it's happy. This isn't rocket science and it is well known. Never the less...I do like why it works.

 

[Kiwimike]

It is sort of a budget-challenge, EV conversions in the country where I live, Venezuela, are like 20 years behind the rest of the world. Even the neighboring country, Colombia, has some nice conversions that are already more than 10 years old. The problem in Venezuela was that gasoline was practically free, and EV conversions never had a chance to develop in the country. Now the current situation screams for the need of EV, but most people can't afford even a cheap conversion kit let alone a new EV. So, I've been talking with my brother to see if we can come up with something that could be done for people in Venezuela with $1000 or less excluding the battery pack.

Saludos! For what its worth, its not just Venezuela. I'm in Brazil and its very hard to do something like this, and its the same for our whole region. Its economics, anything new regarding motors, controllers and batteries are very expensive. When this type of equipment breaks down, a forklift for example, it will almost always be more cost effective to repair it, even if that means rewinding the motor! Machines and equipment are used to the very very end and beyond, this is why we don't have forklift scrapyards or affordable used parts. At least your gasoline is cheap. We are now paying international prices thanks to our congress selling us out. We pay literally double what is was 4 years ago.

As a side note, our countries for all intense purposes DON'T have hybrid cars. There is no demand, no incentives to have them and if the likes of Toyota had launched the Prius, for example, as an affordable car in every country there would have been a supply shock driving up the price of batteries. So there are no hybrid parts unfortunately.

Only recently we can actually buy them here in Brazil, but you'd have to be rich to get one. The minimum wage is R$1000/month, most people earn R$3-4k a month. A Rav4 hybrid is R$220,000. Just to put things in perspective, because we come on here making questions about industrial ac motors and the likes and you think guys think we're crazy!! But we're just desperate for options...

 

[brian_]

... Just to put things in perspective, because we come on here making questions about industrial ac motors and the likes and you think guys think we're crazy!!

I don't think you're crazy.
Some of us realize that economic and business reality varies by location.

 

[MattsAwesomeStuff]

for all intense purposes

The phrase is "for all intents and purposes". Not "intensive purposes". One's purpose need not be intensive (i.e. extreme, pushed near its maximum), it is a separate reason from one's intentions (i.e. what you would like to do with it).

You use the phrase when making a difference between something extreme that is literally true, versus not literally true very close to it, but are just going to declare it like it is literally true anyways. I.E. In your case, there surely are some hybrid vehicles in Brazil, but from a DIY salvager's perspective, for all intents and purposes there aren't any.

That is, for whatever reason you may have intentions to use that information, or for whatever purposes you may have for it, Brazil has no hybrids.

It's a moderately commonly misused phrase in English too.

 

[cricketo]

The phrase is "for all intents and purposes". Not "intensive purposes". One's purpose need not be intensive (i.e. extreme, pushed near its maximum), it is a separate reason from one's intentions (i.e. what you would like to do with it).

You use the phrase when making a difference between something extreme that is literally true, versus not literally true very close to it, but are just going to declare it like it is literally true anyways. I.E. In your case, there surely are some hybrid vehicles in Brazil, but from a DIY salvager's perspective, for all intents and purposes there aren't any.

That is, for whatever reason you may have intentions to use that information, or for whatever purposes you may have for it, Brazil has no hybrids.

It's a moderately commonly misused phrase in English too.

That's rough.