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Thanks a lot for making things clearer.

One thing I was not able to find yet is a guide or formula on selecting the right resistor for pre-charging. I'm having a hard time finding something appropriate.

I'm looking for something like this:
Input: Traction Pack Voltage, Controller capacitor rating, desired pre-charge time (or a reasonable default)
Output: Resistance (Ohm) and power rating (W) of resistor

example (in my specific case) :
Input: 450V, 380uF, ?? sec
Output: ?? Ohm, ?? kW

As you see, I'm not even sure about how long it should take. Are 500ms enough? Or 3 sec ?
 
neuweiler, The formula for "Pre-charge " is the R C Time constant Formula. That is Capacitance of the input capacitor bank totalized in Farads multiplied by the resistance in ohms is the time in seconds to reach 63.7% of the full applied voltage across the capacitors. We want the full voltage so the time needed is at least three times that Time calculated up to five times that Time calculated. Then the full pack voltage without the resistance is connected. But, there is no input surge because the capacitors have been slowly Pre-charged eliminating a major voltage difference when the main contactor is closed. Unless the vehicle is switched off for 10 minutes or longer there is generally no reason to Pre-charge again during a drive. The use of sufficiently rated tungsten filament light bulbs (Preferably heavy duty vibration resistant like "Garage closer, Ceiling fan, or oven and appliance rated bulbs)which offer a regulation of current magnitude during Pre-charge and therefore Pre-charge more quickly, but, at a lower peak current rate, are preferable and also less expensive than a large physical size resistor. You cannot use the "Start" position on the automotive ignition switch because the start is after "ON" and pre-charge will already have been missed. (In quality modern equipment like the controllers from EVnetics, the pre-charge is internal...) Good luck if you need more explanation I am always available for advice thru EVTI.ORG contact page.
 
EC nut, thanks a lot! Do you happen to have the formula at hand?
To be honest, the light bulb approach would be a bit too geeky for my taste. I'd prefer a resistor in a cool looking case.
So I guess that the output of this formula would be the resistance and from there you could calculate the power dissipation at full load. But then the next question arises: the time to pre-charge is quite short. If you get 1000W maximum input current, do your really need a 1000w resistor or would it be overkill ? (as it won't be a continuous current).
 
So I guess that the output of this formula would be the resistance and from there you could calculate the power dissipation at full load. But then the next question arises: the time to pre-charge is quite short. If you get 1000W maximum input current, do your really need a 1000w resistor or would it be overkill ? (as it won't be a continuous current).
This may help. http://liionbms.com/php/precharge.php
 
EC nut, thanks a lot! Do you happen to have the formula at hand?
To be honest, the light bulb approach would be a bit too geeky for my taste. I'd prefer a resistor in a cool looking case.
So I guess that the output of this formula would be the resistance and from there you could calculate the power dissipation at full load. But then the next question arises: the time to pre-charge is quite short. If you get 1000W maximum input current, do your really need a 1000w resistor or would it be overkill ? (as it won't be a continuous current).
Neuweiler, I gave you the formula but you didn't recognize it in text. "the R C Time constant Formula. That is Capacitance of the input capacitor bank totalized in Farads multiplied by the resistance in ohms is the time in seconds to reach 63.7% of the full applied voltage across the capacitors. We want the full voltage so the time needed is at least three times that Time calculated up to five times that Time calculated." In algebraic form that is RC=Tc or resistance in Ohms times the Sum of the input capacitors (Because there are usually several you just add them together.) equals the "Time Constant for that amount of resistance and capacitance. and the "TC" in seconds is the time to charge the capacitors to 63.7% of the applied voltage then in the same number of additional seconds it charges up 63.7% of the remaining voltage and in five times the charge reaches 99.5% so we consider the capacitors fully charged. As a rule of "Thumb" we usually use about 470 to 750 ohms. Also the actual average dissipated power is only a fraction of a watt however we use a physically substantially larger resister for physical strength and vibration resistance from driving on cobblestone roads and such. Typical is a five watt resistor supported with a nylon clamp and bolted to a strong surface. For the same reason I usually connect it up with (American Wire Gauge) # AWG-12 stranded wire. The voltage does not affect the resistance for a particular time ... nor does the amperage capability of the system as that current does not pass thru the resistor. we just allow the capacitors to charge up slowly for five to ten seconds to minimize the surge of charging up discharged capacitors when first applying the full battery pack voltage. (It saves the relay some wear and tear upon switching on...) I'm here if you have more questions.
 
Davide, only one problem, the current does not flow into the positive terminal of the relay, the Electrons do. but current flows the other direction (Especially for those of us educated in "Classic Electric Engineering" I could treat you to the 30 minute lecture on current flow but.....and the fee is $50 and you won't have to feel ignorant again. 8^)
 
Davide, only one problem, the current does not flow into the positive terminal of the relay, the Electrons do. but current flows the other direction (Especially for those of us educated in "Classic Electric Engineering" I could treat you to the 30 minute lecture on current flow but.....and the fee is $50 and you won't have to feel ignorant again. 8^)
I assume you refer to Davide's quote here:
In that case, the contacts of the contactors are polarized (one terminal is labeled '+'); connect the contactor so that normally (that is, while discharging) the current flows into the '+' terminal.
He is correct and consistent with EE convention with regards to current flow. You should follow his advice if you wish for your contactor to work properly.

You can teach how you wish, but I, and I suspect Davide, do not feel ignorant about it ;)

For easy reference see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_current
 
Major, and Davide, The discrepancy comes from engineers speaking to technicians.
As Engineers tend to use, Conventional Current Flow (From Positive to Negative).
Alternatively most Technicians use Electron Current Flow (From Negative to Positive) thus the simple statement, "the current flows into the terminal marked (+)" is inadequate to describe the direction of current flow. The relay is not a source, it is marked similarly to a "Load" and the (+) of the pack is connected to the (+) of the contactor.
 
Major, and Davide, The discrepancy comes from engineers speaking to technicians.
As Engineers tend to use, Conventional Current Flow (From Positive to Negative).
Alternatively most Technicians use Electron Current Flow (From Negative to Positive) thus the simple statement, "the current flows into the terminal marked (+)" is inadequate to describe the direction of current flow. The relay is not a source, it is marked similarly to a "Load" and the (+) of the pack is connected to the (+) of the contactor.
Davide stated it correctly. Why do you choose to insult him (and me) and confuse the issue for the reader?
 
Did anyone tried to put contactor coil parallel with controller (connected to B+ and B-). That way when start switch is on, power goes through resistor until voltage in capacitors raises enough to activate contactor. Time needed to start the car will depend on how drained capacitors are and in case that they are full, car will start immediately. Switch would need to be double throw switch and will need to disconnect resistor and contactor coil, so that car could be turned "off" before capacitors deplete.

Sorry not able to upload picture at this time.
 
Here's a scope trace showing the effect of the precharge resistor to limit the inrush current into the big capacitor in the motor controller.

Using a 1mV/Amp current probe after the resistor on the positive lead coming into the capacitor with 2mV per division scale factor and 20msec per division time base. The current spikes up initially, then tapers off as the capacitor is being filled and it's voltage comes up.

The resistor is a JRM wire-wound SVM, R = 24 Ohms rated at 40W. The capacitor, C= 1020uF rated at 420VDC. The Mitsubishi iMiev pack voltage is 360VDC.

The resistor has to dissipate the energy stored in the capacitor over the precharge time, which is considered to be 5 time constants, where one time constant is R*C = 24R*1020uF =~25msec, so Tpc = 5 time constants is 0.125 sec. This can be seen in the scope trace where the current drops back down to nearly zero.

The energy stored in the cap charging up to 360 Volts is E = 0.5 *C * V^2 =~ 66 joules.

So the resistor power during precharge is E/Tpc = 66j/0.125s =~ 530 Watts , which is a short-time overload factor of about 13x, but for only 0.125 seconds.

The JRM datasheet indicates they are designed to handle 10x overload for 5 seconds, so appears to be some margin.

The initial current spike is 14 amps in about 2 msec, which is a high power load of 5400 W. The average power over the first 20 msec is about 2900 W, so the resistor device must be very rugged and able to handle these sort of massive power overloads and survive.
 

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Fair enough. Could someone please explain in detail how you would wire the pre-charge resistor? is it just another power cable going to the controller with a resistor connected in-line?
It is simple ,wire the recharge resistor Across the Main terminals of the main contactor, there is a great video on you tube ,look up DIY pre charge resistor ,he explains it in layman's terms, installed on go cart!
 
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